Pope Innocent III

[lemonbeam]

I read this online and I don’t know what to make of it, can you please help

“Begin of violence on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered…~70,000 slaughtered”

H.Wollschläger Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich
1973.

 

[Alegare21]

It’s very possible this happened, but it doesn’t mean much. The Catholic Church has been called “The Perfect Institution, with many Imperfect people.” Sadly, people pretend to follow the truth when they actually reject it and spread errors. This is just one of the many reasons why Christ called upon some of the greatest saints in history to rebuild the Church and her body. I hope that helps.

 

[DavidFilmer]

“Begin of violence on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered…~70,000 slaughtered”

The source has already illustrated his historic ineptitude with his silly comparison to the Nazis. No serious historian doubts who was the single greatest pre-nazi mass murderer - it was Josef Stalin, whose directives killed AT LEAST three million of his own Russian countrymen (according to official statistics) and may have killed up to sixty million (most estimates are in the 10 to 20 million range - making Stalin significantly more deadly than Hitler, and the worst mass-murderer of all time).

Even if we accept the 70,000 figure, this pales in comparison to Stalin (and a whole bunch of others as well). So the guy is a historical idiot.

The guy is probably talking about Simon de Montfort, not Pope Innocent III. The Pope had sent a Papal legate (Pierre de Castelnau) to the Cathars to seek a peaceful resolution of their differences, but the legate was murdered. The Pope then declared a crusade against these peoples, with the promise to endow the conquerors with the lands of the Cathars (this is now known as the Fourth Crusade).

This offer attracted several French noblemen, who accepted the challenge. These noblemen (not the Pope) appointed Simon de Montfort as one of their commanders.

Simon de Montfort was an especially brutal man, and several thousand people (but not likely 70,000) perished by his command.

 

[lemonbeam]

“Begin of violence on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered…~70,000 slaughtered”

The source has already illustrated his historic ineptitude with his silly comparison to the Nazis. No serious historian doubts who was the single greatest pre-nazi mass murderer - it was Josef Stalin, whose directives killed AT LEAST three million of his own Russian countrymen (according to official statistics) and may have killed up to sixty million (most estimates are in the 10 to 20 million range - making Stalin significantly more deadly than Hitler, and the worst mass-murderer of all time).

Even if we accept the 70,000 figure, this pales in comparison to Stalin (and a whole bunch of others as well). So the guy is a historical idiot.

The guy is probably talking about Simon de Montfort, not Pope Innocent III. The Pope had sent a Papal legate (Pierre de Castelnau) to the Cathars to seek a peaceful resolution of their differences, but the legate was murdered. The Pope then declared a crusade against these peoples, with the promise to endow the conquerors with the lands of the Cathars (this is now known as the Fourth Crusade).

This offer attracted several French noblemen, who accepted the challenge. These noblemen (not the Pope) appointed Simon de Montfort as one of their commanders.

Simon de Montfort was an especially brutal man, and several thousand people (but not likely 70,000) perished by his command.

So Pope Innocent III did not give an order to murder?

 

[1ke]

newadvent.org/cathen/08013a.htm

 

[DavidFilmer]

DavidFilmer;6148031:

So Pope Innocent III did not give an order to murder?

The Pope ordered the Fourth Crusade. He surely realized there would be bloodshead. The Church did not (and still does not) categorically oppose all war. The Church has never formally embraced St. Thomas Aquinas’ idea of a “just war,” but most Catholic theologians are in agreement with the idea.

What made Simon de Montfort unique was not that he killed people (lots of Crusaders killed people), but that he was especially brutal about it. No Pope has ever commanded wanton brutality, and it is unlikely that Innocent III even knew who this guy was until after he had committed his brutal deeds.

 

[calguy65]

DavidFilmer;6148031:

So Pope Innocent III did not give an order to murder?

A balanced, though abreviated, historical treatment of the crusade against the Albigenisans is available at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade Issues such as this can never be explained simply. It is clear, however, that Innocent III called upon the French nobles to suppress them. Albigensian beliefs were quite probably not Christian. They preached a form of dualism and completely rejected sex and procreation. After years of ascetic practice and training, they ended their lives through self starvation. Such teaching could hardly attract great numbers of followers on their own. Rather, it is likely that the Albigensians were used by some French nobles who opposed the power of the Pope and Catholic Church. As an incentive to the French nobles to fight for his cause, Innocent III offered the land and holdings taken from the Albigensian heretics.

As a consequence of the slaughter of the Albigensians, the northern French crown took possession of the land of southern French nobles. Some sources indicate that this began the “Frenchification” of southern France which led to the loss of Occitan, the southern French language.

 

[Ignatius]

DavidFilmer;6148031:

So Pope Innocent III did not give an order to murder?

War is not murder. The area was under the juisdiction of France, not in Italy. when conflicts come about between different states it is called war.

 

[Alethiaphile]

Uh, he wasn’t making a “comparison” to the Nazis, and Stalin’s massacres were not “pre-nazi”.

 

[Ignatius]

DavidFilmer;6148031:

So Pope Innocent III did not give an order to murder?

No, in fact he did not. War is not murder. The area was under the juisdiction of France, not in Italy. when conflicts come about between different states it is called war.