Pope John Paul II a MARTYR?!?!

  • Thread starter Thread starter JKirkLVNV
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JKirkLVNV

Guest
I was reading in today’s paper that the Holy See is considering declaring that HHJPII was a martyr, due to the attempt on his life in St. Peter’s square and due to his profound illness in the years before his death. What’s up with this? I loved the old Holy Father and I pray I live to see him canonized, but I think that this may be stretching it a bit. He did not die as a result of his faith and many saints died of the typical ailments of age (or ailments that may kill one in one’s old age) and were never declared martyrs. What does everyone think?
 
I think JPII (the Great) was a very holy man and would have been perfectly willing to die a martyr, but I do not believe he did. He should be cannonized, but he was not a martyr.
 
I would be interested in reading about such an unprecedented proposal. Would you be able to provide a link?
 
As I understand it, PJP2 is not being declared a martyr, it is only under consideration.

They are going to look into the motive of the shooting attempt on his life, whether it was political or religiously motivated. They will also consider the fact that he lived on for so many years.

As far as his illness, it can be argued that yes, he suffered as do many at the end of their lives, but it can likewise be argued that he took on the suffering of others through his last breath…is this not a form of martyrdome? None of us as observers will ever be able to make this call.

Martyrdome comes in many forms. Personally, I believe a declaration of martyrdome will not be necessary as I believe many miracles will be ascribed and proven through his hands through our Lord Jesus Christ. This does not negate his martyrdome, however.

I do believe he was a martyr.

I also believe there are unknown saints that will only be revealed on the Last day, or maybe never, and will never be declared, but this does not negate their sainthood.

Along those lines, JP2 IS a saint whether officially canonized or not.

But I submit this to the magesterium to discern and declare.
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
I was reading in today’s paper that the Holy See is considering declaring that HHJPII was a martyr, due to the attempt on his life in St. Peter’s square and due to his profound illness in the years before his death. What’s up with this? I loved the old Holy Father and I pray I live to see him canonized, but I think that this may be stretching it a bit. He did not die as a result of his faith and many saints died of the typical ailments of age (or ailments that may kill one in one’s old age) and were never declared martyrs. What does everyone think?
Click to expand...

I think it’s ridiculous - it was a bad idea to called Blessed Aloiszje (sp?) Stepinac a martyr, but at least he died of an illness connected with his imprisonment. JP2 died of old age. The same reasoning would make St.Alphonsus Liguori a martyr - he suffered terrible ill health for the last twenty years of his life.​

I really worry sometimes about the devaluation of words which comes from stretching them - someone who survives a bullet by almost 24 years cannot reasonably be said to have been killed by it 🙂

The report may be - and I hope it is - nothing more than a piece of mere asinity ##
 
40.png
Chatter163:
I would be interested in reading about such an unprecedented proposal. Would you be able to provide a link?
Click to expand...
I’m sorry, I’ve no link. It was in the Las Vegas Sun, with quotes from cardinals. I’ll get the section and quote from it tomorrow, too late tonight. I don’t see how this could be. Saint John Paul the Great, Doctor of the Church, but Martyr? I can’t see it.
 
"Vatican officials no longer are dismissing outright the notion that Pope John Paul II could be declared a martyr, a step that could remove the need for a confirmed miracle to beatify the late pontiff and make it easier for him to become a saint.

Associated Press reports that Cardinal Jose Saraiva Martins, prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, said on Friday that it is up to groups of theological experts to decide if the 1981, attempt on John Paul’s life - as well as his long, public suffering before he died - warranted a declaration of martyrdom.

“In a technical, theological, juridical and canonical sense, the martyr gives his life for the faith,” Saraiva Martins said in response to questions at a news conference, according to the Apcom news agency. “We have to verify the motive for the attempt on the life of (Karol) Woytyla. And this will be the work of theologians.”

Ever since Pope Benedict XVI announced on 13 May that he was putting John Paul on the fast track to be beatified, questions have swirled about whether he could be declared a martyr. Doing so would remove the need for the Vatican to confirm that a miracle attributed to his intercession had occurred after his 2 April death.

The Vatican would still need to confirm that a miracle occurred after his beatification for John Paul to be declared a saint.

Church officials had initially rejected outright any suggestion that the 1981 assassination attempt could be the basis for a martyrdom declaration since John Paul lived for almost another 24 years. They also noted that other candidates for beatification and sainthood had also suffered ordinary illnesses at the end of their lives but were not declared martyrs.

However, Cardinal Camillo Ruini appeared to have been setting the stage for a possible martyrdom declaration on Tuesday when he formally opened the beatification cause for John Paul. During his remarks at the end of the service, Ruini said there was a “decisive” link between John Paul and Jesus Christ based on blood.

“John Paul truly spilled his blood in St Peter’s Square on 13 May, 1981, and then again, not just his blood but he offered his life during the long years of his illness,” Ruini said. "

From CWN website. It is not only the bullet wound but his whole life after that incident which was so publicly shown to be one of suffering and which was offerred up to God. he was a saint and a martyr.
 
Perhaps its just Don Stanislaw trying to get his best friend declared ASAP…

Though that would be SO cool if B16 was able to beatify him in Köln.
 
Gottle of Geer said:
- someone who survives a bullet by almost 24 years cannot reasonably be said to have been killed by it 🙂
Click to expand...

Unless you’re Andrew Jackson 😉
 
I heard on the news that it was because his Parkinson’s disease, which added to the reasons for his death, was advanced/worsened (i’m not sure how, I’m not good with the medical stuff) when he was shot in 1981. So, his being shot contributed to his death, but…it’s still a little bit of a stretch, I think.:hmmm:
 
radhika said:
"Vatican officials no longer are dismissing outright the notion that Pope John Paul II could be declared a martyr, a step that could remove the need for a confirmed miracle to beatify the late pontiff and make it easier for him to become a saint.

Associated Press reports that Cardinal Jose Saraiva Martins, prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, said on Friday that it is up to groups of theological experts to decide if the 1981, attempt on John Paul’s life - as well as his long, public suffering before he died - warranted a declaration of martyrdom.

“In a technical, theological, juridical and canonical sense, the martyr gives his life for the faith,” Saraiva Martins said in response to questions at a news conference, according to the Apcom news agency. “We have to verify the motive for the attempt on the life of (Karol) Woytyla. And this will be the work of theologians.”

Ever since Pope Benedict XVI announced on 13 May that he was putting John Paul on the fast track to be beatified, questions have swirled about whether he could be declared a martyr. Doing so would remove the need for the Vatican to confirm that a miracle attributed to his intercession had occurred after his 2 April death.
Click to expand...

IOW, they are looking for ways of getting round as many of the obstacles to canonising him as possible - maybe ability to play football should be a facilitating factor 😃​

The Vatican would still need to confirm that a miracle occurred after his beatification for John Paul to be declared a saint.

Church officials had initially rejected outright any suggestion that the 1981 assassination attempt could be the basis for a martyrdom declaration since John Paul lived for almost another 24 years. They also noted that other candidates for beatification and sainthood had also suffered ordinary illnesses at the end of their lives but were not declared martyrs.

However, Cardinal Camillo Ruini appeared to have been setting the stage for a possible martyrdom declaration on Tuesday when he formally opened the beatification cause for John Paul. During his remarks at the end of the service, Ruini said there was a “decisive” link between John Paul and Jesus Christ based on blood.
Click to expand...

Messrs Baigent & Leigh, please note 🙂 That last sentence must be one of the most unfortunate sentences one could write, given all the hoo-hah about Jesus marrying Mary Magdalen & tripping off to her chateau in the South of France 😃 When we cut ourselves, does that link us to Christ ? Of course not - the connection is one in the Spirit - let’s leave that blood nonsense to the worshippers of “Blood and Soil”; to talk bilge about JP2 only debases and degrades him. Circumcision involves bloodshed - so if blood links Jesus with anyone, it links him with His fellow-Jews, not with a Gentile Pope​

“John Paul truly spilled his blood in St Peter’s Square on 13 May, 1981, and then again, not just his blood but he offered his life during the long years of his illness,” Ruini said. "
Click to expand...

The fact remains, that this is not how martyrdom has been understood; and it is quite intolerable that words with stable meanings should be taken and spiritualised on the sly like this. St.Athanasius, who was five times an exile from his see, is not deemed a martyr - yet it is arguable that the title would suit him far better than a modern pope. Or what Joan of Arc ? She did suffer death. Yet she will never be called a martyr.​

St.Kofi Annan, anyone ? OK, so he’s, alive, and possibly not a Catholic - but so what ?

St Billary Clinton ?

If founding what is now the EU is compatible with being considered for canonisation - as has been suggested should happen to Robert Schuman - then so is plastering the Serbs with bombs during Holy Week 😦

telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/08/19/wvatic19.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/08/19/ixworld.html

Happily, the Vatican is against the idea 🙂 ##
From CWN website. It is not only the bullet wound but his whole life after that incident which was so publicly shown to be one of suffering and which was offerred up to God. he was a saint and a martyr
Click to expand...
.*
 
Very peculiar statement, as John Paul did not die of his 1981 wounds, and his assailant was supposed to have political motivations and not religious ones for his attack.

Doesn’t meet the understood meaning of the word *martyr. *

This probably shouldn’t be promulgated as it will likely make it look like the church is pulling a fast one by changing the meaning of a word.
 
Not likely to happen. Pope John Paul II did not give up his life for the faith, although I’m certain he suffered much (I came across one saint in the older Calendar who was declared a martyr, but only after undergoing intense torments due to persecution, but did not shed his blood). In any case, there doesn’t seem to be much justification is such a move.

However, I think he should DEFINITELY be declared a Doctor.
 
A martyr is someone who suffers for the faith. There are two types of martyrdom: wet and dry martyrdom. Wet martyrdom is when someone sheds blood. Dry is when they do not shed blood. I’m not saying that Pope John Paul II is a martyr, I will leave that up to the Church to decide, but wet martyrdom is not the only way to become a martyr.

matthew
 
40.png
marty1818:
A martyr is someone who suffers for the faith. There are two types of martyrdom: wet and dry martyrdom. Wet martyrdom is when someone sheds blood. Dry is when they do not shed blood. I’m not saying that Pope John Paul II is a martyr, I will leave that up to the Church to decide, but wet martyrdom is not the only way to become a martyr.

matthew
Click to expand...
Yah, good point. The saint I mentioned earlier would be a dry martyr. I also saw on EWTN an episode by Jack and Penny Lord Pope John Paull II presented as a dry martyr (this was made when he was still alive).

Then again, as you say, the final say is up to the Church.
 
Sgt Sweaters:
Unless you’re Andrew Jackson 😉
Click to expand...

Old Hickory ? What happened ? Is being President of the USA a form of martyrdom ? Maybe it should be so considered 🙂​

 
St. John the Evangelist is the only apostle whose feast is NOT celebrated in red vestments precisely because he did not die a martyr’s death, though the enemies of Christ surely tried!
 
John Paul the Great can’t be declared a red matyr and he won’t. The red martyr (those who were killed in witness of their faith) certainly doesn’t apply to him. Don’t look for it to happen.
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## Old Hickory ? What happened ? Is being President of the USA a form of martyrdom ? Maybe it should be so considered 🙂 ##
Click to expand...

Maybe it should be…

I’m pretty sure it was Jackson that was shot, never had the bullet extracted, and over the next few decades suffered from lead poisoning which spread to his heart and ultimately killed him. Or am I thinking of someone else?

Oh well, I don’t mean to hijack the thread!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top