Pope John Paul II and Quran

  • Thread starter Thread starter pohandes
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
K9Buck said:
The Koran contradicts John 14:6
Click to expand...
As I said I don’t want say Koran is true word of God; but a question: Which verse of Koran does say “someone comes to God except through Jesus”? I did not have much discussion with Muslims, but as far as I know, they believe in Jesus as “a important element of salvation chain”
brown_bear said:
Many simple Islamic people - non-terrorists, non-fanatics - spend the day looking for the will of God, while in Milan - probably everywhere but I speak of what I know - many Catholics spend the day looking for the will of their intellectual arrogance and their lower abdomen.
Click to expand...
You are right. 😟
 
My understanding is it was a gift and this was a culturally courteous sign of receiving the gift. That being said, it was scandalous for the Pope to make what appears to be a reverential act–often made in the Christian tradition with regard to the Gospels, the Cross, relics, etc.—to a book which denies the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ and inspired the persecution of many Christians over the centuries. It could have been graciously accepted in another way that didn’t carry such implications. Even Pope Francis didn’t make acts of reverence the Communist crucifix he was given and accepted.

But nobody’s perfect.
 
Last edited:
My Muslim friend gave me a copy of the Quaran. I demonstrated my thanks and appreciation of the gift.

St JPII was far more gracious than I can ever hope to be. Culturally the kiss was the appropriate sign of respect for the giver and appreciation of the gift.
 
I believe the Pope erred in meeting with Islamic leaders. Islam is a false religion that might be leading its adherents to damnation. Why would the Pope endorse that false belief system by even meeting with them? I believe that Jesus would have told them that their book is false and to follow him instead, just as Jesus lambasted the pharisees. There’s no way that Jesus would have kissed a Koran and then kept quiet about its false teachings.
 
I’d suggest Dr Kreeft’s book “Between Allah and Jesus: What Christians Can Learn From Muslims” as well as the Catechism (following the footnotes to the reference documents) section on our relationship with Muslims.
 
K9Buck said:
I believe the Pope erred in meeting with Islamic leaders. Islam is a false religion that might be leading its adherents to damnation. Why would the Pope endorse that false belief system by even meeting with them? I believe that Jesus would have told them that their book is false and to follow him instead, just as Jesus lambasted the pharisees. There’s no way that Jesus would have kissed a Koran and then kept quiet about its false teachings.
Click to expand...
It can be for it’s true teachings, too.
 
Last edited:
pohandes said:
It can be for it’s true teachings, too.
Click to expand...
The problem is, despite stating certain truths, along with with its very grave and central errors, it is also as a whole purported to be God’s revelation when it is not–it displaces the actual, real revelation given by God for our salvation. The Church has censured books even in recent times for containing some errors along with many truths, so simply containing some truth is not in and of itself justification for reverence. It’s one thing to respect and tolerate the good faith beliefs of someone in another religion and acknowledge the good things they believe and do–it is another to reverence the false “revelation.” Jesus warns of false prophets–He doesn’t say to reverence their prophecy.
 
Last edited:
It depends on whether you culturally interpret the kiss as “reverencing” or whether you interpret in the way Pope JPII likely meant it, as a heartfelt thanks for a gift and as a gesture Muslims culturally expected him to make when given an important gift.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
It depends on whether you culturally interpret the kiss as “reverencing” or whether you interpret in the way Pope JPII likely meant it, as a heartfelt thanks for a gift and as a gesture Muslims culturally expected him to make when given an important gift.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity, where do you draw the line, then - if a pagan gives the Pope an idol statue (not out of the question - Amazon Synod? Pachamama?) should he kiss that also?
 
I don’t think bowing to anything other than Our Lord is ever a good idea. A kiss can be interpreted many ways - romance, greeting, brotherhood, peer-to-peer respect. A bow, however, is subordination, at least in our own culture.

Two other things occur to me when I see this picture of Pope JPII:
  1. Most of his papacy was prior to the Internet/ 24-hour worldwide Pope media coverage era. In his day, the audience was usually primarily the group watching in person or on local media in whatever country he was in this week. Nowadays, the whole world is watching everything the Pope does and passing judgment upon it. Therefore, Popes probably have to be more careful now because whatever they do while in the middle of Culture X is going to be seen and perhaps differently viewed by Culture Y half a world away.
  2. I also recall during his papacy there were a lot of instances of Western non-Muslims disrespecting the Quran, ripping it up or urinating on it or whatever, which totally outraged Muslims, and he may have wanted to counter that sort of image by being very respectful.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
It depends on whether you culturally interpret the kiss as “reverencing” or whether you interpret in the way Pope JPII likely meant it, as a heartfelt thanks for a gift and as a gesture Muslims culturally expected him to make when given an important gift.
Click to expand...
That’s the problem really. I’m sure it was intended as the latter and we should assume the best intentions. But, in the Christian tradition, which is always the context of the papacy–it is a sign of reverence for holy things. It is simply more natural for one to interpret the Pope as doing a Roman Christian thing–ie that by kissing it he is reverencing the book as a holy thing. Even actions that are not evil in themselves can have the appearance of evil. And St. Paul says “From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves.”

This is why I said it was scandalous in my initial post. As St. Thomas explains:
A thing is said to be less right, not because something else surpasses it in rectitude, but because it has some lack of rectitude, either through being evil in itself, such as sin, or through having an appearance of evil. Thus, for instance, if a man were to “sit at meat in the idol’s temple” (1 Corinthians 8:10), though this is not sinful in itself, provided it be done with no evil intention, yet, since it has a certain appearance of evil, and a semblance of worshipping the idol, it might occasion another man’s spiritual downfall. Hence the Apostle says (1 Thessalonians 5:22): “From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves.” Scandal is therefore fittingly described as something done “less rightly,” so as to comprise both whatever is sinful in itself, and all that has an appearance of evil.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
ReaderT said:
Out of curiosity, where do you draw the line, then - if a pagan gives the Pope an idol statue (not out of the question - Amazon Synod? Pachamama?) should he kiss that also?
Click to expand...
This was obviously a hotly debated incident in Catholic circles. But really…its done. It happened one time years ago. If not for modern mass media, we wouldn’t even know about this 5 second incident. It doesn’t effect any doctrines, and I don’t think its worth continuing to debate.

That said, I would definitely not be comfortable with any Christian kissing a pagan idol.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I don’t think bowing to anything other than Our Lord is ever a good idea. A kiss can be interpreted many ways - romance, greeting, brotherhood, peer-to-peer respect.
Click to expand...
It reminds me of what my friend (a bank manager) once said about her outfits: “If I have to ask myself 'Is this appropriate for work?” then it probably isn’t." The same should apply to the Pope - if his actions are a “gray area”, then it would be best to take precaution and steer clear altogether.

Yet everything coming out of Rome recently is so… ambiguous and vague:
  • The whole Pachamama thing (is it an idol? The Virgin Mary? Not clear.)
  • Pagan rituals in the Vatican
  • Pope saying “God wills the diversity of religions”
  • Pope kissing the Quran
  • Etc etc etc
twf said:
That said, I would definitely not be comfortable with any Christian kissing a pagan idol.
Click to expand...
For the sake of devil’s advocate, why not? He’s just “giving a heartfelt thanks for an important gift” by kissing the statue of the wild Hindu goddess Kali…
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top