Pope John Paul II beatification

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Monica4316

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I consider myself a traditional Catholic, but I do not oppose the beatification of Pope John Paul II… he supported Catholic moral teachings, made sure the Rosary and St Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion” was not forgotten, encouraged Adoration, etc… why are so many traditionalists opposed to him? or is it only the sedevacantist and SSPX traditionalists? I believe in the Papacy, and when I attend the Latin Mass it’s at an FSSP church (or the diocesan Latin Mass). The reason I’m traditional is because I believe that the Novus Ordo has many changes in it that didn’t even come from the Vatican, and that if it is changed to what it’s supposed to be, it would be a lot like the TLM, or we would revert to the TLM. So I prefer the Latin Mass because I pray better there and that is my spirituality. But I am loyal to Pope Benedict and to the Church. Also, Pope JPII is beatified because of a miracle… I don’t have a problem with this 🙂

what about other traditional Catholics here? do any of you share my views?
 
At this point, there is no room for any Catholic to dissent on this. It’s done. Beatification and canonization are really a papal call. The pope can do it anyway he wants to do it and when ever he wants to do it. It’s part of the Petrine Office to make statements of faith. When you beatify or canonize, you’re making a statement of faith for the Church. It really says more about God than about the individual, even though the individual is key, because God speaks through the life and virtue of the individual.

I truly believe that any Catholic, who at this point, dissents on this beatification has raised the bar to a new level. It’s no longer a question of whether or not John Paul should be beatified. We run the risk of sining against humility. We must always be careful not to allow our feelings to interfere with our moral obligation to submit to legitimate authority.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
l.

I truly believe that any Catholic, who at this point, dissents on this beatification has raised the bar to a new level. It’s no longer a question of whether or not John Paul should be beatified. We run the risk of sining against humility. We must always be careful not to allow our feelings to interfere with our moral obligation to submit to legitimate authority.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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So, can you accept a teaching/action, but disagree? Sort of like as a teen, you may submit to your parent as sole authority, but may not always agree and may state that you don’t agree?

I heard someone today imply that she did not really agree with the beatification, but what’s done is done. What do you think of that?
 
TrueLight said:
So, can you accept a teaching/action, but disagree? Sort of like as a teen, you may submit to your parent as sole authority, but may not always agree and may state that you don’t agree?

I heard someone today imply that she did not really agree with the beatification, but what’s done is done. What do you think of that?
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It all depends how you’re disagreeing. Allow me to give you some examples of appropriate and inappropriate disagreement.

APPROPRIATE:

“I wish Pope Benedict had not rushed this.”

That’s OK. You can wish this.

INAPPROPRIATE:

“The Pope is wrong.”

“Pope John Paul did not deserve beatification, because he did not resolve all the problems of the Church.”

This is wrong at several levels.
  1. As Pope Benedict said in his sermon, “I wanted to move this along as quickly as possible.” As Pontiff, he has the right to move it along at whatever speed he wants and the faithful have no right to opine on the matter. Beatifications and canonizations are Peter’s call to make. To opine contrary to Peter in an area that’s reserved to him is to violate boundaries. On another thread, I gave the example of Pope Gregory IX who canonized St. Francis of Assisi 18 months after his death and St. Anthony of Padua 11 months after his death. The cardinals were upset, because the pope ignored canon law. The end result was that the pope said, “I’m the pope.” And he proceeded to canonize, then to excommunicate anyone who questioned him. If I remember correctly, there was only one excommunication and that one was lifted when the cardinal did penance. The point was made that in matters that pertain to the authority of Peter, no one should trod.
  2. At another level, this is wrong, because the man is canonized for what he achieved, not for what was left to do. There is always going to be more that needs to be done. No one ever fixes everything before they die.
  3. Beatifications and canonizations recognize God’s grace at work in the life of a person. God should not be denied glory and praise, because we’re dissatisfied. That is a grave sin.
  4. Finally, our Church is a hierarchical Church. It’s not a republic. Popes do not rule with the consent of the governed. They govern us with the consent of the Father. Even those few who were less than exemplary men, still governed with the consent of the Father. They are placed above us by the Father, not next to us and not beneath us.
I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
It is God who provide us proof, miracle, saying “I glorified him among my saints.”
The Church do not have any right to challenge God for His decision.
If the Lord glorified His servant, we need to acknowledge it with joy.

Otherwise we are challenging not only the Church, or Peter. We are challenging God Himself. That would be ridiculous.

Personally, I’m delighted, I feel like dancing since yesterday I saw the beatification. Even now, I’m listening to the beatification hymn all day. It makes my day!

Holy Father, John Paul II, Pope of Rome, pray for us!
 
JReducation said:
At this point, there is no room for any Catholic to dissent on this. It’s done. Beatification and canonization are really a papal call. The pope can do it anyway he wants to do it and when ever he wants to do it. It’s part of the Petrine Office to make statements of faith. When you beatify or canonize, you’re making a statement of faith for the Church. It really says more about God than about the individual, even though the individual is key, because God speaks through the life and virtue of the individual.

I truly believe that any Catholic, who at this point, dissents on this beatification has raised the bar to a new level. It’s no longer a question of whether or not John Paul should be beatified. We run the risk of sining against humility. We must always be careful not to allow our feelings to interfere with our moral obligation to submit to legitimate authority.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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The priest at Mass yesterday morning said that only canonisation was infallible (JPII could still technically be in purgatory), and I’ve heard this said by quite a few other people as well - that only canonisation is the infallible declaration. Am I correct in interpreting your post as saying that beatification is also infallible and should be accepted as such? Not wanting to be argumentative but I’d like to get this straight.
 
Beatification is a statement by the Pope that affirms the person (in this case, Bl. John Paul II) is IN HEAVEN.

It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE that he would “still be in purgatory.”

We do not know if he even went to purgatory etc. That is God’s call to say, not ours.

It is true that canonization is an “infallible statement” of the Pope.

That does NOT mean that if the Pope does not speak in such a manner, we do not accept his teachings etc.

Moral teachings are never declared by the Pope infallibly. That doesn’t mean we don’t commit mortal sin when we choose to ignore his teachings in this respect.

Certain “traditionalist” Catholics oppose Pope John Paul II. As has been said, such opposition is now opposition to the Church herself.

Alex
 
Also, we must remember that people are canonized for their own personal sanctity, not necessarily for the things they were able to accomplish in life. So for example, we have many founders of orders who are canonized, but not all. Those who are also showed extraordinary sanctity during their life. On the other hand, we have people (like St Isadore the Farmer or even St Terese) who are saints, but who never ‘accomplished’ anything major during their lifetimes.
 
Mark1970 said:
The priest at Mass yesterday morning said that only canonisation was infallible (JPII could still technically be in purgatory), and I’ve heard this said by quite a few other people as well - that only canonisation is the infallible declaration. Am I correct in interpreting your post as saying that beatification is also infallible and should be accepted as such? Not wanting to be argumentative but I’d like to get this straight.
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A beatification is not an Ex Cathedra decree. If you observe very carefully the ceremony. The bishop or religious superior (if the person belongs to an order) approaches and asks for the individual to be placed on the list of Blesseds. The response is “Request Granted.”

In a canonization the pope declares that the person is in heaven. There is a difference.

However, your priest may have or may not have explained it correctly. Popes do not sign decrees of beatification unless they are absolutely sure that the person is going to be canonized.

Pope Benedict kept repeating this at the mass. He kept saying that we knew that John Paul was a saint, even in life. Then his closing prayer is very telling. Normally, you do not pray to the Blessed during the mass of beatification. Pope Benedict said a short, spontaneous prayer to Pope John Paul at the closing of his homily.

The priest should have also rexplained that with beatification come certain rights that properly belong to a saint.
  1. He may have churches and parishes named after him.
  2. There is a feast day assigned to him to be celebrated in specific dioceses and in those dioceses that ask.
  3. There is a collect added to the mass and prayers added to the breviary for that day, where appropriate.
  4. The person’s picture or statue may be exhibited in a church. That’s why they keep the image covered until the pope grants the request for beatification. It’s not for dramatic effect. It’s because until the person is a Blessed or a Saint, he does not belong in a Church. Observe that you don’t see pictures of the current pope inside a church. You see them in the office or the corridors or other parts of the building.
  5. His body may be placed in a church or even in an altar. Until he is a Blessed, his body remains in the crypt or the cemetery. John Paul will not have his own altar in St. Peter’s. I believe just down the same wall from Pope John XXIII. Mother Teresa has her own altar in Calcutta.
The Church does not make any of these moves unless she’s very sure that the person deserves all of this public veneration. From here, it’s a matter of the pope deciding to canonize. He can wait for the other miracles to be proven or he can dismiss them. It’s always his call.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Beatification is a statement by the Pope that affirms the person (in this case, Bl. John Paul II) is IN HEAVEN.

It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE that he would “still be in purgatory.”

We do not know if he even went to purgatory etc. That is God’s call to say, not ours.

It is true that canonization is an “infallible statement” of the Pope.

That does NOT mean that if the Pope does not speak in such a manner, we do not accept his teachings etc.

Moral teachings are never declared by the Pope infallibly. That doesn’t mean we don’t commit mortal sin when we choose to ignore his teachings in this respect.

Certain “traditionalist” Catholics oppose Pope John Paul II. As has been said, such opposition is now opposition to the Church herself.
Alex
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Bold is mine.

At some point, one has to be careful not to raise the bar.

I simplify it to make it clear for me and others.

Prior to being commanded to go, I can say to my superior that I don’t really want to go to the house in Australia because it’s not a good idea.

Once he sends me the letter telling me that I’m going, I can’t say, “No I’m not.”

To do that is to raise the bar. Now, we’re not longing talking about whether it’s a good idea or not. Now we’re talking about insubordination. That’s unacceptable anywhere, not just inside the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
A beatification is not an Ex Cathedra decree. If you observe very carefully the ceremony. The bishop or religious superior (if the person belongs to an order) approaches and asks for the individual to be placed on the list of Blesseds. The response is “Request Granted.”

In a canonization the pope declares that the person is in heaven. There is a difference.

However, your priest may have or may not have explained it correctly. Popes do not sign decrees of beatification unless they are absolutely sure that the person is going to be canonized.

Pope Benedict kept repeating this at the mass. He kept saying that we knew that John Paul was a saint, even in life. Then his closing prayer is very telling. Normally, you do not pray to the Blessed during the mass of beatification. Pope Benedict said a short, spontaneous prayer to Pope John Paul at the closing of his homily.

The priest should have also rexplained that with beatification come certain rights that properly belong to a saint.
  1. He may have churches and parishes named after him.
  2. There is a feast day assigned to him to be celebrated in specific dioceses and in those dioceses that ask.
  3. There is a collect added to the mass and prayers added to the breviary for that day, where appropriate.
  4. The person’s picture or statue may be exhibited in a church. That’s why they keep the image covered until the pope grants the request for beatification. It’s not for dramatic effect. It’s because until the person is a Blessed or a Saint, he does not belong in a Church. Observe that you don’t see pictures of the current pope inside a church. You see them in the office or the corridors or other parts of the building.
  5. His body may be placed in a church or even in an altar. Until he is a Blessed, his body remains in the crypt or the cemetery. John Paul will not have his own altar in St. Peter’s. I believe just down the same wall from Pope John XXIII. Mother Teresa has her own altar in Calcutta.
The Church does not make any of these moves unless she’s very sure that the person deserves all of this public veneration. From here, it’s a matter of the pope deciding to canonize. He can wait for the other miracles to be proven or he can dismiss them. It’s always his call.
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Actually, I don’t think it was a prayer, per se. This is what he said:
Blessed are you, beloved Pope John Paul II, because you believed! Continue, we implore you, to sustain from heaven the faith of God’s people. You often blessed us in this Square from the Apostolic Palace: Bless us, Holy Father!
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Compare this to what he said when he preached the homily for the funeral Mass:
None of us can ever forget how in that last Easter Sunday of his life, the Holy Father, marked by suffering, came once more to the window of the Apostolic Palace and one last time gave his blessing “urbi et orbi”. We can be sure that our beloved pope is standing today at the window of the Father’s house, that he sees us and blesses us. Yes, bless us, Holy Father.
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I do not think that this is a prayer, since he pretty much made the same statement at the funeral Mass.
 
benedictgal said:
Actually, I don’t think it was a prayer, per se. This is what he said:

Compare this to what he said when he preached the homily for the funeral Mass:

I do not think that this is a prayer, since he pretty much made the same statement at the funeral Mass.
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I think it’s open to interpretation, whether he’s asking John Paul to bless us or The Father.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
I think it’s open to interpretation, whether he’s asking John Paul to bless us or The Father.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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He was referring directly to Pope John Paul II in that quote from the funeral homily. He tied in the quote to the tail end of the beatification homily.
 
I do believe the prayer of Blessed Pope John Paul II have helped many people, including myself. 🙂
 
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