Pope John Paul II on COTT

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All legalities aside, I think the OP’s point was to show how little the Catholics value the words of the Pope, and a popular one at that. The fact that several people were even surprised at this statement from the Pope shows how truth either gets relegated to the last page somewhere, gets completely distorted, or only concentrates on all possible loopholes. Very sad.
Excellent point. When a pope says something we agree with, and we do agree, someone will dismiss it, or even deny it. I suppose both sides are guilty of it.

I saw an old post from about 3 years ago that mentioned these comments from JPII, but no link was offered.
 
Don’t you think you’re micro-analyzing CITH because of personal opinion against it? How many traditions and practices are accepted today that are “born out of disobedience”? Meaning they were not in the rubrics but somehow, somewhere people started practicing them and the practice spread? To tell you honestly I do not know the answer, but organic development and inculturation happens that way and its prevalent in the East and is accepted in the East. In fact, didn’t the Council of Nicea say that we should offer our prayers to the Lord standing up? How did Roman Catholics start kneeling anyway?
Can you name a single practice you speak of that was continued despite the worlds Bishops and the Pope saying NO ?

Trent. Codification. 'nuff said.
 
Excellent point. When a pope says something we agree with, and we do agree, someone will dismiss it, or even deny it. I suppose both sides are guilty of it.

I saw an old post from about 3 years ago that mentioned these comments from JPII, but no link was offered.
Right. The problem is a lot of people, from both sides, would cut up pieces of statements from Popes to fit one’s agenda. And I thought only Protestants do that with the Bible. I guess we’ve been infected.

I’d go with what Bro. David said. Even assuming the text is the full belief of the Pope (that there isn’t anything more to it), what he did or didn’t do says something else. He could have had CITH forbidden, but he didn’t. Same with our current Pope.
 
Even assuming the text is the full belief of the Pope (that there isn’t anything more to it), what he did or didn’t do says something else.
So what did he do that was contrary to what he said in the OP?
He could have had CITH forbidden, but he didn’t.
The OP never implied that this was even a consideration.
 
Can you name a single practice you speak of that was continued despite the worlds Bishops and the Pope saying NO ?
Vernacular hymns at low Mass would be one obvious example. Very popular in some parts of the world (Germany, for instance), and they’ve been permitted by indult for a couple of hundred years, but the practice began without authorization. The Missa dialogata is another example – it’s not like it was a Roman brainchild or something; it was the codified permission for something that was already going on illicitly, or at least with the permission of local bishops, in various places.
Trent. Codification. 'nuff said.
No, that’s just the beginning.
 
I’m not trying to start a debate (I know this is a touchy subject) but I was kind of shocked to learn that Pope John Paul II was apparently in favor of COTT. I’ve talked to people who always give me the “oh, that changed after Vatican II” to defend something, so I was shocked to see that Pope John Paul II was in favor of COTT.

Here’s the quote:

This quote was included in Pope John Paul II Dominicae Cenae. You can read it here: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_24021980_dominicae-cenae_en.html

And again, I’m not trying to start a debate. I just wanted to share it with all of you.
The last paragraph detailing the Popes feelings as he held Our Lord brought to mind a
testimonial that I heard a while ago from a women who relayed the first time she received Our Lord in her hands.To paraphrase "I had always received on the tongue until I was a E.M.H.C. at Mass. The priest placed the host flat in my left hand, I gently, with my thumb and two fingers, lifted the Our Lord to my mouth. As I realized the few precious extra moments that I was able to hold on to God in my hands I started to cry.

It appears that the Pope and the E.M.H.C. both share a common bond of reverance !
 
Wow. I think were reverence our guide the choices would be a lot clearer on this! Also, the Second Vatican Council (the real one) didn’t change the norm on Communion reception just like it never told the priests to face the people or that anything but Gregorian Chant was really appropriate or that the vernacular was to become the norm. But a lot of people just wanted to do what they wanted to do, you know? Disobedience pretty much reigns supreme anymore. And it’s Christ and God the Father we really rebel against when we blow off Church authority replacing it with “Rev. Larry felt like this was a good idea so we did it.”
 
Everyone slow down. You folks are talking as if CITH, dialogue masses, vernacular hymns, priest facing people, standing for communion, etc were all evil and as if it was never allowed. Both assumptions are wrong. They are not evil and they have been allowed.

The problem is, as I have said over 100 times, a lot of things were allowed to a very small, select group of Catholics. Now, they are allowed in the parish. The way that it looks to the person in the pew is that this is something new and bad. That is not the case, nor is it what John Paul II said or Benedict XVI.

There were norms, such as COTT that were held for the laity, religious houses of women, and for many religious houses of men. Together, this makes up the largest segment of the Roman population.

However, there were always exceptions that existed long before Trent and which Trent did not abrogate. The fact that Trent did not abrogate these exceptions is an indicator that it was not wrong. The Church would never allow something that is wrong.

What Trent tried to do was unify the Roman Church by codifying the liturgy. However, it left intact many of these practices that we think are new, which already existed in certain places, in some religious orders and in some abbeys.

One can say that one likes or dislikes it. That’s fair. But it’s unfair to say that it’s wrong. When you say that, then you’re indicting those who have had these practices for hundreds of years. For example, my religious family had CITH since 1209. We had vernacular music since 1209. We did not have Gregorian Chant. We never had communion rails or kneelers, we stood or knelt on the floor, depending on the custom of the province. Each province had its own customs. We had our own ritual and still do to this day.

Carmelites, Carhusians, Dominicans, Jesuits and some other religious communities of men that I can’t think of right now also had their own ritual books and some even had their own rite. Franciscans never had a rite, but do have a ritual book, missal, lectionary and breviary with its own rubrics . To the layman’s eye it looks like a hybrid between the EF and the OF. In fact, it’s just a carryover from the 13th century with some modification made to accommodate for different provinces and local customs.

We must be very careful when we use words such as “wrong”. “Out of compliance for the laity” is a much more appropriate term than “wrong”. The word “wrong” suggests that those who did not do it this way were doing something bad.

We must never violate charity in our defense of reverence. That’s an oxymoron.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Funny, JReducation, the only one who’s used the word wrong so far is you. What has happened - sorry if you don’t find my objectivity “charitable” but I cannot help you there - is that some practices that were provided for in extreme cases (extraordinary ministers of Communion is a prime example) are being done routinely in parishes just on a whim. Reverence and charity both have gone out the window in these cases. I sincerely do not know where you’re coming from, JReducation, though I did strain myself to link the examples you gave to the real issue at hand, really I did…
 
Vernacular hymns at low Mass would be one obvious example. Very popular in some parts of the world (Germany, for instance), and they’ve been permitted by indult for a couple of hundred years, but the practice began without authorization. The Missa dialogata is another example – it’s not like it was a Roman brainchild or something; it was the codified permission for something that was already going on illicitly, or at least with the permission of local bishops, in various places.
I could be wrong, but can you show me something that makes it clear Rome said stop and they didn’t ?

I’m talking something that went on for years after it was prohibited, not centuries ago when word traveled on horseback.

Where’s the beef ? 🙂
 
Wow. I think were reverence our guide the choices would be a lot clearer on this! Also, the Second Vatican Council (the real one) didn’t change the norm on Communion reception just like it never told the priests to face the people or that anything but Gregorian Chant was really appropriate or that the vernacular was to become the norm. But a lot of people just wanted to do what they wanted to do, you know? Disobedience pretty much reigns supreme anymore. And it’s Christ and God the Father we really rebel against when we blow off Church authority replacing it with “Rev. Larry felt like this was a good idea so we did it.”
Yep. “In our parish we do this” “In our parish we do that”

Exactly one of the things Trent addressed. And here we have… another about face. We hear trads want to wind the clock back to 1960, but the mainstream has wound it back to the 1400’s. 🤷
 
I could be wrong, but can you show me something that makes it clear Rome said stop and they didn’t ?

I’m talking something that went on for years after it was prohibited, not centuries ago when word traveled on horseback.

Where’s the beef ? 🙂
Trent. Codification. 'Nuff said.

No, j/k. Unfortunately I can’t point you to, for instance, a letter sent to German bishops in 1700. Out of curiosity (this is a real question) can you show me something from, say, the 1950s - 70s that makes it clear that Rome said to people to stop distributing Communion in the hand and they didn’t? I’ve never seen a Vatican dictat of this sort, though that’s not to say that it couldn’t exist. I don’t mean the non-binding mid-70s poll of bishops in which it failed to gain approval (and then later did), I mean “something that makes it clear Rome said stop.”
Yep. “In our parish we do this” “In our parish we do that”

Exactly one of the things Trent addressed. And here we have… another about face. We hear trads want to wind the clock back to 1960, but the mainstream has wound it back to the 1400’s. 🤷
I wish! Then we’d have all those beautiful, theologically rich, organically Catholic sequences back that those Tridentine iconoclasts denuded our glorious Mass of. (Hey, weren’t there Protestant observers at Trent?! Hmm . . . .) 😉
 
Funny, JReducation, the only one who’s used the word wrong so far is you. What has happened - sorry if you don’t find my objectivity “charitable” but I cannot help you there - is that some practices that were provided for in extreme cases (extraordinary ministers of Communion is a prime example) are being done routinely in parishes just on a whim. Reverence and charity both have gone out the window in these cases. I sincerely do not know where you’re coming from, JReducation, though I did strain myself to link the examples you gave to the real issue at hand, really I did…
Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough. Let me try this again. My point is that people use words such as: appaling, disobedience, wrong, etc. This topic is not new around here. It’s older than CAF, I bet. 😃

Before we go there, I’m reminding people that what is wrong and appaling is not CITH, which is the subject of this thread, but the disobedience in the circles where this is not allowed or was not allowed. The act itself it neutral. We have always had it. It simply was not available to most Catholics The same is true of other things that sound like they’re new, but they’re really very old, but had always been limited to specific populations.

Discussed this more than we’ve changed socks. It always goes the same route. People start with this is wrong, that is a sacrilege, the other thing is a heresy, etc, often forgetting that we’ve had this conversation and we’ve heard that none of this is what people say it is. The issue is that it was not allowed to the laity in most of the Roman Church. Now we have the problem that most of the Roman Church does not know how to do this with the same reverence than let’s say those religious houses that always had CITH, or no railings, or who faced the priest from the side, not the back, or who did not kneel, but bowed and so forth. Before we go there, I was just reminding people that we’ve taken this tour many times.

Al Trent and I have been on this tour at least five times already. Next time around, we’ll be roommates. 😛

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Very good, MarkThompson. Very well, JReducation, I now see that we are on the same page: reverence and obedience are indispensable. I’m glad I was so forbearing with you because what I silently thought was that you were trying to impose some kind of Newspeak where nobody can wind stems or, as the Wicked Witch of the West says in The Wiz, “Don’t nobody give me no bad news!” I’m no conservative, but I do know that there is Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Magisterium for a reason and to blow off all three in one fell swoop as most parishes in my diocese have done is an act of unparalleled hubris and no mistake. I think, were we to be honest, a misplaced Antimarian feminism is at the heart of the problem. Religious sisters have forgotten the true relevance of their witness and have had recourse to mainly immoral “traditions.” Women in the parish, enabled by these religious sisters, have bought into this “prophetic” movement toward all things feminist and resolved to bend their pastor over a barrel. Most pastors - most men - are too immature to deal at all wisely with such women, and the rest is history! What women (and men) need is Mary but as long as we go on the misogynous path of this “Spirit of Vatican II” (which as I’ve said bears ostensibly no connection to the Second Vatican Council) we will continue trying to be as Protestant as possible, and Mary and the Eucharist will go on being second-class citizens of these “Catholic-but-not-really” parishes. Orthodox men and women everywhere are putting their feet down. I love the Marian Movement of Priest (warts and all) because (a) they speak incessantly and naturally of Mary and (b) they promote what the Church is sorely lacking: solidarity between parishoners and pastor!
 
Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough. Let me try this again. My point is that people use words such as: appaling, disobedience, wrong, etc. This topic is not new around here. It’s older than CAF, I bet. 😃
People also like to toss around the word reverence or reverent. As if the option they chose is the most reverent option and there is no way that the other can be as reverent.

You see this a lot with people who speak of choosing to received COTT while kneeling, that it in of itself is more reverent than standing and receiving CITH.

That is nothing more than opinion and really, what does it matter what others are doing, you should be focusing on yourself, which is something I believe Br JR has already brought up.
 
Focusing on yourself? I daresay were I focused on myself I’d stand. What I mean about “reverence” is that you should be focused on Jesus. Some of this may be cultural rather than universal. Well and good. Western Civilization has always viewed kneeling (on your left knee) before a king as fitting; therefore, how much more ought we to kneel (on our right knee) before the King of Kings? So a lot of common sense went into the liturgy as we had it in the 1960 Missal. As for Communion on the tongue (which out of reverence I refuse to abbreviate) I personally do it is an act of childlike dependence on God. I am not sure what devout sentiment goes into reception on the hand, but I’d certainly be open to hearing of it just as I’d be open to hearing what devout sentiment goes into standing. All I’ve heard so far is, “We’re not wrong,” but I’ve never heard anything to indicate why such people are right. They get so defensive, even to the point of censuring the words we use. That’s why this type of discussion tends to be so circular. The devil loves division and endless, fruitless discussions devoid of content and charity. I affirm the importance of both content and charity in discussions. I find it ironic that many people who contend for their “freedom” to do as they will oppose other people’s freedom to express themselves as they will. The message this sends is that they are irrational, unstable and presumably doing something they themselves believe to be “wrong” (hence it was those who defend Communion on the hand, not Communion on the tongue, who were the first to use the word) acting in all ways like a man with a guilty conscience, imputing to the opposing side words and views they never expressed. My mother is a judge, and she talks all the time about men who show their guilt without the slightest provocation during court procedings. This thread is a textbook example of such human behavior. It is as predictable as the Pavlovian dogs. The gestures that I propose are gestures of worship, reverence and childlike dependence. The gestures that others propose, I can only surmise at this juncture, are gestures of obstinance, irreverence and all-grown-up modern attitudes. I’ll be glad to be proved wrong - or at least told where to look for some sign that maybe there is a potential for a dependent spirit among those who promote post-Conciliar novelties. Why do you expend all your energy in muddying the waters if indeed you truly have a case? From my end you sound like bad lawyers.
 
Focusing on yourself? I daresay were I focused on myself I’d stand. What I mean about “reverence” is that you should be focused on Jesus. Some of this may be cultural rather than universal. Well and good. Western Civilization has always viewed kneeling (on your left knee) before a king as fitting; therefore, how much more ought we to kneel (on our right knee) before the King of Kings? So a lot of common sense went into the liturgy as we had it in the 1960 Missal. As for Communion on the tongue (which out of reverence I refuse to abbreviate) I personally do it is an act of childlike dependence on God. I am not sure what devout sentiment goes into reception on the hand, but I’d certainly be open to hearing of it just as I’d be open to hearing what devout sentiment goes into standing. All I’ve heard so far is, “We’re not wrong,” but I’ve never heard anything to indicate why such people are right. They get so defensive, even to the point of censuring the words we use. That’s why this type of discussion tends to be so circular. The devil loves division and endless, fruitless discussions devoid of content and charity. I affirm the importance of both content and charity in discussions. I find it ironic that many people who contend for their “freedom” to do as they will oppose other people’s freedom to express themselves as they will. The message this sends is that they are irrational, unstable and presumably doing something they themselves believe to be “wrong” (hence it was those who defend Communion on the hand, not Communion on the tongue, who were the first to use the word) acting in all ways like a man with a guilty conscience, imputing to the opposing side words and views they never expressed. My mother is a judge, and she talks all the time about men who show their guilt without the slightest provocation during court procedings. This thread is a textbook example of such human behavior. It is as predictable as the Pavlovian dogs. The gestures that I propose are gestures of worship, reverence and childlike dependence. The gestures that others propose, I can only surmise at this juncture, are gestures of obstinance, irreverence and all-grown-up modern attitudes. I’ll be glad to be proved wrong - or at least told where to look for some sign that maybe there is a potential for a dependent spirit among those who promote post-Conciliar novelties. Why do you expend all your energy in muddying the waters if indeed you truly have a case? From my end you sound like bad lawyers.
Opinion with a little ad hominem, nice and very perfectible.

No one is guilty of obstinateness or irreverence when they do what the Church allows for. By definition the Church can not teach an evil.

Why can you not allow others to do what the Church allows without comments such as these?
 
I’m still awaiting some rationale from anyone for any of the novelties here discussed, whether it’s Communion in the hand…or any on the list. Don’t try to redirect by insinuating that I’m the one being irrational or one-sided here when I’ve clearly stated my case and left the forum open for any opposing views while all you’ve done is basically call me and those who are concerned with this tidal wave of novelties “mean,” hoping against hope that the label would stick. The Angelic Doctor himself observed that “Change for its own sake is bad.” That’s why I’m asking what the reasons were for the changes: so that I can begin to view them as good! If there are real, legitimate reasons I hope I can trust someone on this forum to possess enough wits to enumerate them presently!
 
Furthermore, to unpack what I’ve already alluded to, I have no problem with people doing what the Church allows for when it’s under the conditions she stipulates. What I have a problem with (and we all should be loudly opposing in my opinion) is people giving general absolution when there is no immediate peril just because the priest is too afraid to tell people to go to confession or using women eucharistic ministers when there is a deacon in the pews and the priest is seated on his chair just because women feel left out. I question these practices, their human motives and the underpinning agenda that drives them and a myriad of other such deviations (like the ones I’ve clearly mentioned). This matter is not going to just go away just because those who support flippancy browbeat those who question it. As long as men can reason there will be voices to question such brazen disobedience. Whatever is done with obedience and reverence, let me again reiterate, I endorse with my whole heart and soul. This is not, on my part, an issue of custom, for customs must come and go naturally. But in all my experience I seldom see even the faintest shadow obedience or reverence in the full-blown abuses which happen virtually everywhere I’ve traveled to and whose atrocity I only began to outline and of which we are all equally aware regardless of how we approach it.
 
I must also add that I do not think there were no abuses prior to the closing of the Second Vatican Council. Clearly there were. “Abuses” in both senses of the word for that matter. But you cannot possibly try to cover up the fact that there was a titanic surge in abuses (in both senses) after the Council. So my preference of tradition over innovation is based not on personal preference but on solid statistics. Again my mind remains open to anyone else’s interpretation of these facts as I am sure there must be many. Mine, though, at least currently, is that nature abhors a vacuum, and to relax rules - even antiquated rules - too fast is to invite a world of trouble.
 
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