Pope John Paul II on COTT

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johnpfmcguire said:
I must also add that I do not think there were no abuses prior to the closing of the Second Vatican Council. Clearly there were. “Abuses” in both senses of the word for that matter. But you cannot possibly try to cover up the fact that there was a titanic surge in abuses (in both senses) after the Council. So my preference of tradition over innovation is based not on personal preference but on solid statistics. Again my mind remains open to anyone else’s interpretation of these facts as I am sure there must be many. Mine, though, is that nature abhors a vacuum, and to relax rules - even antiquated rules - too fast is to invite a world of trouble.
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Sorry I do not buy this view. Abuses in the past would have been kept in relative isolation because word and news travels slowly back then. Today, abuses would be caught on camera phones and be on YouTube before the Mass is even over, alterting the rest of Christiandom. If a priest in small town Europe abuses the liturgy or his parishioners back then, what are the odds it gets reported at all? And its a different world back then, in a “your word vs. my word” scenario, the priests’ word would surely be taken over most people.
 
But what you’re favoring is modern technology not to be confused with modern liturgical novelties, am I correct? Also your post does not address the real statistics but only how you imagine things could work in this supremely speculative and idealistic literary genre you employ. The truth is, the sexual license the “Spirit of Vatican II” seems so keen on allowed priests to sort of explore certain things, and that was what led inevitably to pedophilia. Orthodoxy always opposes pedophilia.
 
johnpfmcguire said:
But what you’re favoring is modern technology not to be confused with modern liturgical novelties, am I correct?
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I’m just saying to make a claim that there are more abuses today than in the past is baseless. We do not have the same kind of record keeping in the past that we have today, nor does information is shared in the past than it is today. Moreso, where will people in the past get information that the Mass is being desecrated by the abuse of a priest? Where will they get copies of the GIRM or view Vatican documents? If they priest says, “hey, this is fine,” who are they to say otherwise? Today we have hundreds, maybe thousands of self-made Canon Lawyers because of the information we have access to. Not the same in the past. This is not the case even 100 years ago.
 
You could be right, and you make some capital points, but I tend to doubt the picture you paint is anywhere near accurate. Tragically, you sound far more like Dan Brown than a credible historian.
 
I’m not a historian, but I am an IT guy. I know what we have today isn’t even available 15 years ago. Facebook and Twitter aren’t even 5 years old. And you don’t need a history degree to acknowledge the fact that the world is different today than it was in the past, its always been like that. Culture, technology, knowledge, everything has changed. The greatest mistake by many is to always compare different points in time as the same circumstances thinking that the circumstances are equal. They are not. 20 years ago you may not have heard of Mass abuses from a nearby parish. Today when we discuss here at CAF about abuses, you just go on Google or YouTube and there you have it, dozens of examples from all around the world.

I’m not leaning on my credibility as a historian because I have none in that aspect. I’m leaning on common sense.
 
Yes, I figured you for an IT guy. I certainly share your hope that modern techology exposes all the abuses there are…because (speaking of common sense) we haven’t even begun to delve into all it does to enable and perpetuate them! If I do not share your technoidealism it is because, as the New Oxford Review broke the story, there are currently Catholic religious congregations who fund themselves through the sale of Internet pornography. I guess this brings us back full-circle to religious discipline. Although a Generation Xer I can still see pretty clearly that no number of beeps and boops are going to fix what is wrong with the Church, or with humanity for that matter.
 
Actually I am both fearful and hopeful about technology moving our faith forward. Hopeful because we can learn a lot more a lot easier given the tools we have. Maybe that is why in the last 2 years I’ve learned more about Catholicism both East and West than I have my entire life. I couldn’t imagine doing this 10-15-20 years ago when you have to devote entire days in the library. Now while I do my work I sneak into CAF (so that explains why I’m here most of the time) or even read some documents online like the CCC or this week I’ve been reading Orientale Lumen.

On the other hand the problem with technology is not only the good is transmitted instantaneously, but also the bad. Many Catholics end up in websites that teaches heresy and dissent, easy to spread that around. I remember back in the 80s we were getting those “death cookies” flyers in our mailbox. Much easier to spread lies today with the internet.

My concern is not on the abuses being reported. If people are well catechized in the faith, then the abuses will disappear by itself. I’d rather we use the internet for better catechisis than a glorified complaint desk.
 
You are right that we ought to catechize. If you think I’m merely griping then it is up to you to tell me so directly and/or for your edification stop reading what I write. The reason I believe more priests per capita have raped children after the Second Vatican Concil than before it is simple: statistically those who tend to rape children (contrary to what the media would have us believe) are of a secular and socialite persuasion, not tending to be priests or loners at all. After the Second Vatican Council the “Spirit of Vatican II” has forced priests to be more secular, less religious, more social, less private. No serious sociologist or statistician can deny that this has the effect of increasing the number of man-boy sexual encounters. If you don’t like the data I present that’s fine, that’s your right, just as it’s your right not to read what I have to say (which is probably the easiest way to ignore it rather than read it and try to forget it afterwards: I’m told my words have a way of sticking in people’s memory). If it’s the way I present them you find too stark, we are in stark enough times and getting way starker soon. That’s my nutshell apologia for you. I wish you peace and light both simultaneously. In my experience the truth can be the desert or the dessert, all depending on one’s disposition.
 
NOTICE

Please make sure that your post ties in with what Pope John Paul said in the citation provided or his other writings and statements.

Otherwise, the thread becomes a RERUN of the same debate about COTT and CITH. That topic has been exhausted.

Therefore, I’m putting it to bed for a few months. If anyone wants to know what others think about this topic, search old threads, BUT DO NOT REOPEN THEM.

Thanks

Thomas Casey
 
JReducation said:
Al Trent and I have been on this tour at least five times already. Next time around, we’ll be roommates. 😛

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Ah, but we’d argue over whether an image of St Francis or St Dominic is most appropriate in the foyer 😃
 
So the point is that reverence, obedience…and contemplation (see my last post) would be the keys to sustaining true Catholic worship and life. I encourage all who would understand Catholic contemplation to check out Luisa Piccarreta’s writings, DivineWill.org. I’ve no desire to nitpick about particulars, for, as has been astutely noted, this only results in endless bickering, a clash of intellects while hearts and spirits are left to fend for themselves. Be about living the truly Catholic life, the contemplative life, the universal life, the Edenic life, the divine life. Say with Mary and Jesus, say with your whole being “Fiat” to the Divine Will, and you’ll see how quickly all this unsavory, unsavvy minutia falls deftly into its correct place. We need to go back to the meaning of things to understand what the most appropriate way to do them is. What does the Eucharist mean to you? (Question is rhetorical.) Peace to all as we prepare for Jesus’ Second Coming.
 
I was in to visit our Priest the other day and asked about the Alter Boys sitting during Communion, and why they are not serving w/patten at this time. Father got excited to start with by saying he has never had an incident of the host being dropped or otherwise. I calmed him by suggesting that the point I was trying to make was about the service of the Alter Boys during communion. He then suggested that, what would he have all the Eucharistic Ministers to do as they have three serving lines (Mass is packed). As you can see it was not to be discussed. I was not there in my visit to suggest how Mass is to be, but merely to discuss proper training for the Alter Boys. 2 weeks later (I always take communion kneeling and from the Priest only) as I was just about to kneel, Father saw me as he was serving another into the hand and almost allowed the host to be dropped. Did my being there in the manner of how I receive the Holy Eucharist and our previous discussion disrupt us? Was an example being presented by God at this instance? Father didn’t miss a lick as he then moved to serve me. Of 300-400 Parishinors, there are maybe three of us who accept the Holy Eucharist kneeling.
 
damooster said:
This quote was included in Pope John Paul II Dominicae Cenae. You can read it here: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_24021980_dominicae-cenae_en.html

And again, I’m not trying to start a debate. I just wanted to share it with all of you.
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This and other ducuments are the proof that the Communion in hand has nothing to do
  • neither with the XXI Ecumenical council
  • nor with the new form of the Mass
It is simple a hopefully temporary attempt to diminish the reverence toward the Eucharist.
 
plefe said:
I was in to visit our Priest the other day and asked about the Alter Boys sitting during Communion, and why they are not serving w/patten at this time. Father got excited to start with by saying he has never had an incident of the host being dropped or otherwise. I calmed him by suggesting that the point I was trying to make was about the service of the Alter Boys during communion. He then suggested that, what would he have all the Eucharistic Ministers to do as they have three serving lines (Mass is packed). As you can see it was not to be discussed. I was not there in my visit to suggest how Mass is to be, but merely to discuss proper training for the Alter Boys. 2 weeks later (I always take communion kneeling and from the Priest only) as I was just about to kneel, Father saw me as he was serving another into the hand and almost allowed the host to be dropped. Did my being there in the manner of how I receive the Holy Eucharist and our previous discussion disrupt us? Was an example being presented by God at this instance? Father didn’t miss a lick as he then moved to serve me. Of 300-400 Parishinors, there are maybe three of us who accept the Holy Eucharist kneeling.
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There is nothing supernatural in this. This is a simple distraction or an awkward hand gesture on his part.

I realize this subject is important to many people. But let’s keep it in perspective. People do have moments of clumsiness…

As to the use of the altar bosy during communion, it was a nice gesture on your part. Obviously, he does not see the need for it. Let it go. It’s not that important. If he has a full house every Sunday, he must be doing something right and the Lord is blessing that parish.

You say that you only receive Holy Communion from the priest. I’m going to guess that you don’t have deacons. It can be interpreted as rude, when there is a deacon and a priest distributing Holy Communion and the person moves to the line going to the priest. I have seen people do this. I think it’s wrong and rude. A deacon is an ordinary minister of Holy Communion and he’s not a layman, even if he’s married and has 12 kids. He’s just as much a cleric as the priest is and has just as much right to distribute Holy Communion as the priest does. It’s only when there is no need for him to do so that the deacon sits it out, such as at a weekday mass where there are 25 people or something.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
There is nothing supernatural in this. This is a simple distraction or an awkward hand gesture on his part.

I realize this subject is important to many people. But let’s keep it in perspective. People do have moments of clumsiness…

As to the use of the altar bosy during communion, it was a nice gesture on your part. Obviously, he does not see the need for it. Let it go. It’s not that important. If he has a full house every Sunday, he must be doing something right and the Lord is blessing that parish.

You say that you only receive Holy Communion from the priest. I’m going to guess that you don’t have deacons. It can be interpreted as rude, when there is a deacon and a priest distributing Holy Communion and the person moves to the line going to the priest. I have seen people do this. I think it’s wrong and rude. A deacon is an ordinary minister of Holy Communion and he’s not a layman, even if he’s married and has 12 kids. He’s just as much a cleric as the priest is and has just as much right to distribute Holy Communion as the priest does. It’s only when there is no need for him to do so that the deacon sits it out, such as at a weekday mass where there are 25 people or something.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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I have only switched lines when a women stepped in for the Priest. We do not have a Deacon (as I am called to this, but have not taken the steps). Father makes sure to control the Alter isle by himself. I remember him seeing so many switching isles one Sunday, it was never to be that way again, Our Bishop presided one Sunday and a female Euchartistic Minister came down to the Alter isle to serve when he ran out of the host. She got scooted aside rather quickly by the Bishop and talked to afterwards. We have not seen her as a Minister since. But if you can’t tell, I do not agree with Eucharistic Ministers. A kneeling rail or double lines to the Priest is appropriate as it was 40 years ago. Takes as much time. The Holy Eucharist should only be reserved for Christs helper the Priest. Some might argue that Jesus passed bread around at the last supper. I would suggest that he alone passed it around and did not hand it out to be passed around.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph
 
plefe said:
I have only switched lines when a women stepped in for the Priest. We do not have a Deacon (as I am called to this, but have not taken the steps). Father makes sure to control the Alter isle by himself. I remember him seeing so many switching isles one Sunday, it was never to be that way again, Our Bishop presided one Sunday and a female Euchartistic Minister came down to the Alter isle to serve when he ran out of the host. She got scooted aside rather quickly by the Bishop and talked to afterwards. We have not seen her as a Minister since. But if you can’t tell, I do not agree with Eucharistic Ministers. A kneeling rail or double lines to the Priest is appropriate as it was 40 years ago. Takes as much time. The Holy Eucharist should only be reserved for Christs helper the Priest. Some might argue that Jesus passed bread around at the last supper. I would suggest that he alone passed it around and did not hand it out to be passed around.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph
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I understand those feelings and I can respect them. I will only add one point. Jesus did pass the platter down the table. The typical seder meal the head of the house broke the bread and put it on two platters. He then passed them in both directions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
I understand those feelings and I can respect them. I will only add one point. Jesus did pass the platter down the table. The typical seder meal the head of the house broke the bread and put it on two platters. He then passed them in both directions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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ha, waiting for someone to mention the Apostles were ordained at that point … wait…🙂
 
plefe said:
The Holy Eucharist should only be reserved for Christs helper the Priest. Some might argue that Jesus passed bread around at the last supper. I would suggest that he alone passed it around and did not hand it out to be passed around.
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In the good old times acolytes (ordained to that minor order usually a year before the subdeaconate) distributed the Holy Eucharist in regular basis. This was part of their clerical power.

Today in our quite conservative Church the acolyte (who is serving his intern time waiting for his ordination) deposited the Eucharist after the adoration.

The Church allowed it, Catholics obey the Church.

As for the first Mass the participant passed it to each other days before they received the Holy Spirit (John 20:22)
 
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