Pope John Paul II on COTT

[JReducation]

ha, waiting for someone to mention the Apostles were ordained at that point … wait…

Actually, the Apostles were ordained at the seder meal. But I don’t get the connection. That’s why the Holy Thursday mass commemorates the Lord’s Supper and the Institution of the Priesthood.

As far as the way the Eucharist was distributed by Jesus, there is a reason why the bread is consecrated, broken and passed down both sides of the table. In those days, you did not sit at the table for seder. You reclined. The seats allowed you to recline with the table to your side or behind you. The scritpures mention Jesus reclining at the table. It was very awkward to get up and walk around serving. The upper classes had servants to do this.

Many biblical historians believe that this may be how the order of deacon is started. Jesus gets up, puts on an apron and goes around the table washing their feet. This was not an unusual custom, but it was always done by those who were called to Diakonia, to serve. This would explain Peter’s horror at the very idea.

That’s probably how the Apostles first uesed the deacons. It is possible that if they were reclining at table and there were several, that someone was needed to serve the Eucharist. That would make sense when the Apostles say that it is not proper for them to wait on tables. We begin to see the revelation of the three orders of the priesthood. The Apostles were the bishops. But they did not ask the presbyters to wait on the table. Instead, they lay hands on Stephen and Jason and comission them to serve at tables and to care for widows, orphans and the poor. That’s how we receive the three orders of the Sacrament of Holy Orders.

That would also explain why a deacon is an ordinary minister of Holy Communion. This was so from the beginning and why it is the deacon, not the priest who is called to serve alongside the bishop. The first deacons passed the platters withe the consecrated speceis. What is unclear is whether they held out the platter, offering the Eucharist or whether they handed the piece of consecrated bread. There are both opinions on this issue, because of the strong rules that the Jews had about cleanliness. That first generation of bishops and deacons were Jews.

MY guess is that the placing of the Eucharist on the hand did not begin until the ordination of the first Europeans. In Grecco-Roman culture, it was common for the servant to hold the food and feed the master. They would not have been as squimish about cleanliness and touching the consecrated bread as the Jewish Christians would be.

From there we have the evolution of the liturgy and the evolution of the distribution of the sacred species in the different Churches, each doing it differently.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

As far as the way the Eucharist was distributed by Jesus, there is a reason why the bread is consecrated, broken and passed down both sides of the table. In those days, you did not sit at the table for seder. You reclined. The seats allowed you to recline with the table to your side or behind you. The scritpures mention Jesus reclining at the table. It was very awkward to get up and walk around serving. The upper classes had servants to do this.

Maybe but that sounds too casual in light of the fact the soldiers were looking for Him and His apostles. Or maybe they didn’t know?

 

[JReducation]

Maybe but that sounds too casual in light of the fact the soldiers were looking for Him and His apostles. Or maybe they didn’t know?

I don’t think so, because the plan was that the soldiers were to meet Judas and he would indicate who Jesus was. They were not on the hunt for him.

I’m note sure what part is casual. You confused me on that one. Did you mean the reclining? That was the way that our people sat for a fancy meal.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t think so, because the plan was that the soldiers were to meet Judas and he would indicate who Jesus was. They were not on the hunt for him.

I’m note sure what part is casual. You confused me on that one. **Did you mean the reclining? ** That was the way that our people sat for a fancy meal.

Sort of. The Agony at the Garden seems to indicate that something was expected. On second thought in those days wasn’t there the general “custom” of “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you may die” by the gladiators before they were to fight in the Roman Coliseum? I’m just trying to picture the mood at the Last Supper.

 

[JReducation]

Sort of. The Agony at the Garden seems to indicate that something was expected. On second thought in those days wasn’t there the general “custom” of “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you may die” by the gladiators before they were to fight in the Roman Coliseum? I’m just trying to picture the mood at the Last Supper.

If I had to guess the mood at the Last Supper, being a Jew myself, I would say that it may have been a very joyful gathering. It was a holy day. Jewish Seders had a nice combination of prayer, song, and a wholesome family environment. They were not your typical daily meal; but they were not somber either.

I would imagine that when Jesus began to speak about his impending death and when he got up to wash the feet of the Apostles, at that point, the mood must have changed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[laszlo]

Actually, the Apostles were ordained at the seder meal.

How do you know that. I was always taught that the ordination of the Apostles was a long process which did not followed the present sequence. For example the power for absolution was given after the resurrection.

Jewish Seders had a nice combination of prayer, song, and a wholesome family environment.

Did you ever thought that the last supper was essentially different from the seder: it was not family gathering. it was a gathering of a new, on that time only inter-tribe community : the Church. It was the clear sign that the past is over.

 

[benedictus2]

I understand those feelings and I can respect them. I will only add one point. Jesus did pass the platter down the table. The typical seder meal the head of the house broke the bread and put it on two platters. He then passed them in both directions.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

That is true but someone else said in another forum that that was because it was passed to the apostles.

 

[laszlo]

That is true but someone else said in another forum that that was because it was passed to the apostles.

St Tarcisius

ewtn.com/library/mary/tarcis.htm

and that fact of his veneration through the centuries is the proof that there is nothing theologically objectionable with the Extraordinary Ministers of the Holy Sacrament.

There are practical problems, like with anything new, but Catholics accept that fact that the past, the abundance of priests is over, and some functions have to be given to not ordained individuals.

 

[JReducation]

How do you know that. I was always taught that the ordination of the Apostles was a long process which did not followed the present sequence. For example the power for absolution was given after the resurrection.

The Liturgy of the Church teaches this. The Church celebrates the Institution of the Priesthood AND the Lord’s Supper on Holy Thursday. The fact that they did not receive faculties to absolve until after the resurrection is no different from today. When you are ordained, you do not receive faculties to absolve until later, sometimes a month later or more. It depends on either the bishop, if you are diocesan or your religious superior, if you are a religious. They can celebrate mass, but they may not validly absolve. In the case of a priest who is a religious, he has to be assigned first. Then the bishop of the diocese where he is assigned will grant the faculties, once the bishop has received the letter from the Major Superior. The reception of faculties to absolve does not always coincide with ordination.

I have no idea what you were taught. However, just because we were taught something by the good sisters in elementary or high school, does not mean that they understood it correctly or taught it correctly. It certainlly does not mean that we understood it correctly.

I’ve heard people say many things that they were taught and we then figure out that either the teacher did not understand it correctly or the student did not understand it correctly, usually because he was too young. When you’re young, it’s a little difficult to teach something that has many layers to it, such as the difference between ordination and granting faculties.

What Jesus does, when he tells the Apostles "Whose sins you shall forgive . . . " is to grant faculties. Tradition and liturgy have taught us that faculties can only be granted to one who is a priest, not at the moment of ordination. What is received at the moment of ordination is the power to absolve. Power and faculties are not the same. At the moment of ordination you confer the priesthood. Authorization to absolve follows later. The very first thing that a newly ordained priest does is to consecrate, which he does at his ordination mass. He concelebrates with the ordaining bishop. His next priestly action is to bless, which also happens at his ordination mass. The rest follows a certain order.

Did you ever thought that the last supper was essentially different from the seder: it was not family gathering. it was a gathering of a new, on that time only inter-tribe community : the Church. It was the clear sign that the past is over.

I’m a Hebrew Catholic. I know the difference between a Seder and an ordinary meal. Also, they were in Jerusalem for the Passover, which was celebrated for a week. Today, we have the Seder on the first or second day, usually the first. At that time, the Seder was not locked in to the first or second day.

The elements of the Last Supper, as described in scripture are Seder elements. There are four that are very telling. 1) They recline at table. 2) The breaking of bread 3) Multiple cups of wine (of which Jesus consecrates the second) 4) The dipping (remember Judas dipping into the cup?). These are parts of the Seder ritual. In addition, Jesus sends an envoy ahead to reserve the Upper Room with the intention of celebrating Passover.

The fact that the Apostles were a blended family and not a nuclear or even an extended family, does not take away from the Seder being a family celebration. It always had and still has that quality to it. Everyone who comes to the table is family, that night. It’s like “everyone is Irish on St. Patrick’s Day.”

The Jewish people have always had Seders with blended communities. This was not new at the time that Jesus celebrated with his apostles. It started with Moses. Those families that could not consume an entire lamb or goat, were to invite another family to join them. Not all of the Jewish people who were slaves in Egypt were members of the same tribe.

The Church has never taught, nor has scripture, that the “past was over”. What has always been taught is that the Covenant is fulfilled. That’s very different. The Covenant is not discarded. God keeps his promise.

Anyway, to wrap up this response, if we follow the liturgy, all 23 Catholic Churches celebrate the Institution of the Eucharist and the Institution of the Priesthood on Holy Thursday. So do the Orthodox Churches. Therefore, it’s a long-held belief by the Apostolic Churches that the Apostles become priests that night.

Exegetes debate whether they became bishops that night or later. That’s a tough question to answer. We know that they did become bishops before the Ascension. I align myself with those who believe that Christ would have given them the fulness of the priesthood at one time. Therefore, they became bishops that night.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF