Pope John Paul II

[NewPerspective]

I posted earlier concerning John Paul and his bowing to and kissing of the Quran. In 1985, Pope John Paul II declared to an enraptured audience of thousands of Muslim youths, “Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common as believers and as human beings…We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God…” This leads me to believe that his kissing of and bowing to the Quran was something more than a thankyou. Even if it were just a thankyou, why would you thank a false-god serving man for giving you a book that is in complete contradiction to the Word of God (The Bible)? Lets talk here folks. And dont play the Islam is a peaceful religion card.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I posted earlier concerning John Paul and his bowing to and kissing of the Quran. In 1985, Pope John Paul II declared to an enraptured audience of thousands of Muslim youths, “Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common as believers and as human beings…We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God…” This leads me to believe that his kissing of and bowing to the Quran was something more than a thankyou. Even if it were just a thankyou, why would you thank a false-god serving man for giving you a book that is in complete contradiction to the Word of God (The Bible)? Lets talk here folks. And dont play the Islam is a peaceful religion card.

John Paul II also asked that “John the Baptism bless and protect Islam”.

Why did he do these things? It’s hard to say. It may be that he lost the faith and believed that “all religions are more or less good and praise-worthy” (Pascendi). That would also explain Assisi, where he invited members of assorted false to pray to their “gods” for worl peace. At Assisi II, he also provided them with a room where each false religion could commit a mortal sin against the first commandment by offering false worship.

No wonder he was praised by the enemies of the Church (such as Abraham foxman of the ADL); and no wonder he, along with John XXIII and Paul VI, were Time Magazine’s man of the year. And no wonder the Freemasons gave him an award "for his contribution in spreading the ideals of fraternity and understanding. These ideas, the lodge stresses, are the same ones defended by Freemasonry. traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_072_JPII_Masonry.htm

 

[markadm]

I’m reminded of this:

“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men” (Nostra aetate, 2).

…but then Googling I found that Pius XI wrote an encyclical, Mortalium Animos, apparently condemning the ecumenical movement.

The very act of kissing the Qur’an; now that’s something I cannot explain. Put it this way: I would not hesitate to kiss the Torah, because I understand it as part of God’s Divine Revelation, but I do not understand the nature or contents of the Qur’an. What is the Church’s position on how we should regard the ‘scriptures’ of other faiths?

Who knows why he did it. Is it important?
(not that I’m saying it’s not important; I’m playing “devil’s advocate”)

 

[JMMK]

“Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common as believers and as human beings…We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God…”

He speaks the truth, technically. The God of Abraham is the God of Jews, Christians, and Muslims. We just diverge at different points as far as messengers are concerned. I am not a confidant of the Pope so I can’t say with certainty, but from what I have read of his works and remember of him he was an agent of peace. He was probably trying to get them to focus on the commonalities that exist. When you can find common ground you can find peace.

Peace is not only political. In times of peace and relaxed religious tension, it is easier to evangelize. Hence the prayer to John the Baptist. To bless and protect Islam does not mean preserve it in its current form, but to bring the truth. What a thing to ask of the man who was the First to proclaim Jesus as a lone voice crying out in the wilderness.

I don’t know about you but that prayer makes perfect sense to me and has a sort of historical poetic beauty to it.

 

[marymonde]

When you can find common ground you can find peace.

.

If you could provide some examples where false religions have found common ground to achieve a real peace, I would appreciate it.

Part of the Holy Father’s role is to proclaim the Truth, whole and entire, to all people. Christ Himself said Matthew 10: 32 “Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven. 34 **Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.” **

I think it’s absolutely horrendous we are even having a discussion on the Holy Father’s intent of what he meant. This was clearly something repulsive to me, and to almost everyone I know. His action proved to be scandalous and dividing. Catholics argue about it. Protestants throw it up in our faces ALL the time. Kissing the Koran is obviously an act no other pope attempted to do. Why? It’s wrong, plain and simple. Why do we tippytoe around the fact that it was what it was, scandalous to Catholics?

What if my child brought home the Quran and started studying it because the Holy Father kissed it? Or the non-Catholic neighbor who may have been interested in the Holy Faith who now thinks we approve of a religion that attacks everything Christianity is? Don’t think these things didn’t happen after this display. I am on enough boards and groups to see the ramifications of this. Matter of fact a secular board I am on just had another thread about this very matter and every non-Catholic was DEEPLY offended by it and observes it as an attack against Jesus Christ. Especially the comments about us having the same God. It simply is NOT true and the Catholic Church has condemned this train of thought since Jesus Christ instituted Holy Mother Church.

 

[JMMK]

Would you prefer he burned it and your children go around beating the **** out of muslims?

His kissing it in reception was the same as receiving a gift in this country and giving someone a hearty hand shake in appreciation. Its a matter of respect.

And what would be so scandlous about your children reading the Quran? Perhaps by knowing what they believe and where it intersects our beliefs they could bring the Good News to a muslim that challenges their faith. What do you know about Islam?

You’d be amazed at the real gulf of ignorace that stands between the two religions. There is a lot of common ground, but you have to look for it. I dialogued with many muslims in high school and college to try to understand why the tensions are the way they are. Immigrants have told me that many still hold that the crusades waged almost a millennia ago are still around today. They think Christianity is a polytheistic religion. They believe in Jesus as a prophet, not God, yet they hold that his was still the Virgin Birth.

Also that line that the train of though has been condemed since the time of Jesus is absurd because Islam did not surface till four centuries later if my history is correct. They believe in the living God who made a covenent with Abraham, its in the books. Strictly speaking that is the same God. They just diverge on the history and subsequent truths shortly after that fact.

People of different faiths can get along just fine. First you have to respect their religion. That doesn’t mean agree that its possible or probable or just as good as yours. If God gave us the choice to turn our backs on Him in this life, who are we to deny that to others?

 

[Seamus_L]

My gut feeling is that Pius X would have been roasted alive before we would have kissed the koran.

 

[marymonde]

Would you prefer he burned it and your children go around beating the **** out of muslims?

No. I would prefer they would convert them to the Truth. If they would die martyrs, the seeds of faith would be watered for Islams conversion. This has been the course of action since Christ instituted Holy Mother Church.

His kissing it in reception was the same as receiving a gift in this country and giving someone a hearty hand shake in appreciation. Its a matter of respect.?

No it’s not. A Catholic shows error in receiving false religious teachings and praising them. It’s a sin against faith. When a Jehovah’s Witness comes to my door, I politely decline his or her heretical material and ask them to read Catholic literature. I have been called satan by them and other choice words, but that’s what happens when you present the Truth to a person who is NOT of good will.

And what would be so scandlous about your children reading the Quran? What do you know about Islam ?

For starters, it is a sin against faith and could possibly put error into their heads that would take them away from the Truth. St. Robert Bellermine was asked to read protestant teachings and refute them. He flatly refused saying his faith may not be strong enought to hold out and not believe error. Only under obedience, and days of fasting on bread and water, did he pick up the heretical material and refute it. I don’t know, if a Doctor of the Church had qualms about reading false teachings and knew his faith would be put to the test, why would I want my teenager to read it? I know Islam is a false religion and I daily pray for the conversion of those who hold fast to it’s teachings. I DO care for their eternal souls.

Also that line that the train of though has been condemed since the time of Jesus is absurd because Islam did not surface till four centuries later if my history is correct. They believe in the living God who made a covenent with Abraham, its in the books. ?

The train of thought is correct because all false religions have been condemned, doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s not the Truth.

The living God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Three Divine Person, One True God. They do NOT believe in that God, they believe in Allah. This is not the same God. I would rather die than to admit I, or Catholics, worship Allah.

 

[Markstorm]

Would you prefer he burned it and your children go around beating the **** out of muslims?

False dilemma. His actions were not confined to “kiss the Koran” and “burn the book while commanding children to attack muslims”.

His kissing it in reception was the same as receiving a gift in this country and giving someone a hearty hand shake in appreciation. Its a matter of respect.

Taking the book and politely (without burning it -.-) saying “thank you” is also respectful.

And what would be so scandlous about your children reading the Quran? Perhaps by knowing what they believe and where it intersects our beliefs they could bring the Good News to a muslim that challenges their faith. What do you know about Islam?

Children are generally less mature, and are easily persuaded. I certainly would not risk my child indoctrinating himself with false teachings.

Also that line that the train of though has been condemed since the time of Jesus is absurd because Islam did not surface till four centuries later if my history is correct. They believe in the living God who made a covenent with Abraham, its in the books. Strictly speaking that is the same God. They just diverge on the history and subsequent truths shortly after that fact.

On the contrary. They do not believe in the Trinity, and so strictly speaking they believe in a being vastly different in nature. Strictly speaking, not the same.

People of different faiths can get along just fine. First you have to respect their religion. That doesn’t mean agree that its possible or probable or just as good as yours. If God gave us the choice to turn our backs on Him in this life, who are we to deny that to others?

Then what is respecting their religion? Allowing them the legal right to believe it? Sure. Not threatening them in order to make them convert? Absolutely. Does any of this have to do with kissing the Koran? Nope. It seems that you have, knowingly or not, started to argue a different topic.

 

[marymonde]

I wanted to add this respecting other religions makes me ill. I do NOT respect any religion that denies my Dear Lord’s divinity and His being crucified for our sins. What an insult to Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Holy Trinity. I have a friend who is married to a Muslim man. He has stated his god would NEVER hang from a cross. He’s right, his god wouldn’t. The True God did, no matter how much he protests that fact.

 

[whatevergirl]

No. I would prefer they would convert them to the Truth. If they would die martyrs, the seeds of faith would be watered for Islams conversion. This has been the course of action since Christ instituted Holy Mother Church.

No it’s not. A Catholic shows error in receiving false religious teachings and praising them. It’s a sin against faith. When a Jehovah’s Witness comes to my door, I politely decline his or her heretical material and ask them to read Catholic literature. I have been called satan by them and other choice words, but that’s what happens when you present the Truth to a person who is NOT of good will.

For starters, it is a sin against faith and could possibly put error into their heads that would take them away from the Truth. St. Robert Bellermine was asked to read protestant teachings and refute them. He flatly refused saying his faith may not be strong enought to hold out and not believe error. Only under obedience, and days of fasting on bread and water, did he pick up the heretical material and refute it. I don’t know, if a Doctor of the Church had qualms about reading false teachings and knew his faith would be put to the test, why would I want my teenager to read it? I know Islam is a false religion and I daily pray for the conversion of those who hold fast to it’s teachings. I DO care for their eternal souls.

The train of thought is correct because all false religions have been condemned, doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s not the Truth.

The living God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Three Divine Person, One True God. They do NOT believe in that God, they believe in Allah. This is not the same God. I would rather die than to admit I, or Catholics, worship Allah.

Many theology scholars read other holy books to become well versed to be able to discuss why the Catholic faith is the true faith. It is not a sin to read the Qu’ran or the Torah. It wouldbe sinful to take the words on the pages of the Qu’ran as Truth–if we are Christians. But, reading it to understand what it represents is not in and of itself sinful.

 

[mgy100]

In university, I had many professors state that Pope John Paul II was one of history’s best politicians. Remember the Pope is the monarch of a country. It was said that when Pope John Paul would speak at the U.N. (as a neutral country) people would listen.
Perhaps he was being diplomatic at this point. I wouldn’t read too much into it, as the man was highly respected by men of all faiths, beliefs, creeds, walks of life and so on.

 

[Pope_Noah_I]

My gut feeling is that Pius X would have been roasted alive before we would have kissed the koran.

That is signature worthy…

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I wanted to add this respecting other religions makes me ill. I do NOT respect any religion that denies my Dear Lord’s divinity and His being crucified for our sins. What an insult to Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

Thank you for that refreshing post. We MUST hate false religions (which lead souls to hell), but at the same time we are to respect the people in those religions, and treat them well, which I’m sure you do.

But how many Catholics today hate false religions?

 

[whatevergirl]

Thank you for that refreshing post. We MUST hate false religions (which lead souls to hell), but at the same time we are to respect the people in those religions, and treat them well, which I’m sure you do.

But how many Catholics today hate false religions?

No–I think you put that well. We are not to embrace false teachings…and pretend that we all believe the same. But, yet we are to embrace everyone as children of God, and love our neighbors as ourselves.

I don’t think Pope JP2 was doing this–he always believed in unity, and perhaps, that was his way of displaying unity. He was a very blessed Pope…who adored Christ…and would have done anything to prove that here on earth.

 

[Arnobius]

John Paul II also asked that “John the Baptism bless and protect Islam”.

Why did he do these things? It’s hard to say. It may be that he lost the faith and believed that “all religions are more or less good and praise-worthy” (Pascendi). That would also explain Assisi, where he invited members of assorted false to pray to their “gods” for worl peace. At Assisi II, he also provided them with a room where each false religion could commit a mortal sin against the first commandment by offering false worship.

No wonder he was praised by the enemies of the Church (such as Abraham foxman of the ADL); and no wonder he, along with John XXIII and Paul VI, were Time Magazine’s man of the year. And no wonder the Freemasons gave him an award "for his contribution in spreading the ideals of fraternity and understanding. These ideas, the lodge stresses, are the same ones defended by Freemasonry. traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_072_JPII_Masonry.htm

My the logical errors are piled deep today

One could also reason he was speaking with human respect, and not doing anything that indicated a loss of faith or a sense of religious indifferentism.

The logical fallacy glaringly present here is Affirming the Consequent which reasons 1) If A then B. B. Therefore A.

Put in the sense of the claims against Pope John Paul II:

1. *]People who view Islam as true kiss the Koran.
   *]Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran
   *]Therefore Pope John Paul II viewed Islam as true
   
   The problem is the act of the kiss, or of Assisi or other statements do not at all prove anything of the sort. It is the same as the claim:
   1. *]If I am in San Francisco I am in California
      *]I am in California
      *]Therefore I am in San Francisco
      
      False if you are in Los Angeles
      
      The actions do not prove the allegations, and what we are seeing are actions against Christ’s forbidding judging others. Christian charity requires us to consider other possibilities for the actions as well.

 

[JMMK]

Taking the book and politely (without burning it -.-) saying “thank you” is also respectful.

Perhaps, perhaps not. In some countries giving someone a thumbs up is the same as giving someone the bird here. The old phrase when in Rome, do as the Romans do. To communicate with a culture you must understand its physical language as well as its spoken.

No. I would prefer they would convert them to the Truth.

And how do hope to approach them without knowing a thing about them or what they believe?

No it’s not. A Catholic shows error in receiving false religious teachings and praising them. It’s a sin against faith.

The operative word there is praising them. Again, all he did was show respect using their custom. There are many concurrent teachings between the two faiths. Why not point out the Christian (thereby God’s) Truths that they believe as a starting ground for evangelization.

The train of thought is correct because all false religions have been condemned, doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s not the Truth.

Then it was condemned in the Beginning, not when Christ rose from the dead and instituted the Church on Earth.

On the contrary. They do not believe in the Trinity, and so strictly speaking they believe in a being vastly different in nature. Strictly speaking, not the same.

The living God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Three Divine Person, One True God. They do NOT believe in that God, they believe in Allah. This is not the same God. I would rather die than to admit I, or Catholics, worship Allah.

Then neither did the Jews, ever. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are forever begotten of the Father. Failure to fully grasp the nature of God does not equal not worshiping him. Allah is the Arabic word for God and has been around longer than Islam. If you were Catholic and Arabic was your native tongue, yes you would worship Allah. Just like the Japanese Catholics say Kami-sama.

It seems that you have, knowingly or not, started to argue a different topic.

Hardly, they go hand in hand. The argument is over whether or not the Holy Father was doing something scandalous. I contend that he wasn’t. I contend that he was trying to befriend centuries old enemies. You can’t convert people who hate you and won’t listen. Its a first step.

Jesus Himself sat and ate with sinners and non-believers. An action that was a sign of respect among those people, and was reproached by the faithful of the times for dealing with such people. Did He do so to condone their lapsed behavior or did he do so to reach out to them and bring them the truth.

So what do you contend?

 

[StBenMom]

I would rather die than to admit I, or Catholics, worship Allah.

Um… correct me if I am wrong but… isn’t “Allah” the Arabic word for “God”??? So, you see, you ARE worshiping Allah, it’s just the name of Our Father in another language. It’s things like that which perpetuate hatred, etc. We should all be mindful of our words and, DEFINITELY, research before we make comments like that.

The Origin of the word “Allah”

Generically, the word “Allah” likely was a contraction of the Arabic Al-ilah, which means “the god”. Both Arab Christians and pagans used the word Ilah for God. Even Arabic and Indonesian Bibles today use the word “Allah” for God. In past times, the similar Mideastern word el, meant “god” either true or false, in Ugaritic, Canaanite, and Hebrew. Prior to Mohammed, the Ka’bah, which housed 360 idols, was called Beit-Allah, or “House of Allah”. Mohammed’s father, who died before he was born, was named ‘Abdullah meaning slave of Allah. Also, a tribe of Jews was called ‘Abdullah bin Salam in Bukhari vol.5 book 59 ch.13 no.362 p.241.

Now, I am a die-hard cradle Roman Catholic, but I don’t like to see blanket statements made like that without proper research. I am in NO WAY defending Islam…NEVER EVER… I will, however, speak up when I think there has been a wrong. It would be just as bad if if I said I would rather die that worship Dio just because I didn’t know Spanish, when, in fact, Dio is Spanish for God.

Peace:byzsoc:

 

[Markstorm]

Perhaps, perhaps not. In some countries giving someone a thumbs up is the same as giving someone the bird here. The old phrase when in Rome, do as the Romans do. To communicate with a culture you must understand its physical language as well as its spoken.

Merely saying thank you would be perceived as rude? It is obligatory to kiss the book? So if it were obligatory to kneel to it would you? When you are a Christian, do not as the heathens do.

Then neither did the Jews, ever. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are forever begotten of the Father. Failure to fully grasp the nature of God does not equal not worshiping him.

Keep the Jews out of this one, they were fine to worship as they did before the Triune nature was revealed. Now, they are in error. Get it?

Hardly, they go hand in hand. The argument is over whether or not the Holy Father was doing something scandalous. I contend that he wasn’t. I contend that he was trying to befriend centuries old enemies. You can’t convert people who hate you and won’t listen. Its a first step.

Did the North American martyrs learn the “physical language” of the natives? Did St. Francis kiss the Koran or did he confidently proclaim the truth and offer to walk through fire to prove it?

Jesus Himself sat and ate with sinners and non-believers. An action that was a sign of respect among those people, and was reproached by the faithful of the times for dealing with such people. Did He do so to condone their lapsed behavior or did he do so to reach out to them and bring them the truth.

It would have been fine to sit down with Muslims and teach them the truth.

So what do you contend?

Pay attention, read, and you will know.

 

[bear06]

Whenever this topic comes up (resurrecting decade old things seems to be popular here) I like to post Fulton Sheen’s take on converting the Muslims. I wouldn’t be a bit suprised if John Paul actually read Sheen.

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=4000

For those who won’t bother to check out the link, Sheen talks about the truth found in the Missionaries

Missionaries in the future will, more and more, see that their apostolate among the Moslems will be successful in the measure that they preach Our Lady of Fatima. Mary is the advent of Christ, bringing Christ to the people before Christ Himself is born. In an apologetic endeavor, it is always best to start with that which people already accept. Because the Moslems have a devotion to Mary, our missionaries should be satisfied merely to expand and to develop that devotion, with the full realization that Our Blessed Lady will carry the Moslems the rest of the way to her divine Son. She is forever a “traitor,” in the sense that she will not accept any devotion for herself, but will always bring anyone who is devoted to her to her divine Son. As those who lose devotion to her lose belief in the divinity of Christ, so those who intensify devotion to her gradually acquire that belief.

Many of our great missionaries in Africa have already broken down the bitter hatred and prejudices of the Moslems against the Christians through their acts of charity, their schools and hospitals. It now remains to use another approach, namely, that of taking the 41st chapter of the Koran and showing them that it was taken out of the Gospel of Luke, that Mary could not be, even in their own eyes, the most blessed of all the women of Heaven if she had not also borne One who was the Savior of the world. If Judith and Esther of the Old Testament were pre-figures of Mary, then it may well be that Fatima herself was a post-figure of Mary! The Moslems should be prepared to acknowledge that, if Fatima must give way in honor to the Blessed Mother, it is because she is different from all the other mothers of the world and that without Christ she would be nothing.