Pope John XXIII forbade Catholics to support Communism

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FiveLinden said:
I call dictatorships that are based on a single leader and supported by a single party that exclude all other parties, remove the right free speech and persecute opponents with state power
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In other words, every Communist state that’s ever existed…
 
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FiveLinden said:
I call dictatorships that are based on a single leader and supported by a single party that exclude all other parties, remove the right free speech and persecute opponents with state power but allow extensive private ownership of property and a largely free market ‘fascist’.
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So, using this definition, “People’s Republic of China” is “fascist” now, Soviet Russia and USSR were “fascist” under “New Economic Policy”, North Korea was “fascist” while being established (in fact, just about any Communist state ends up being “fascist” until it takes enough property) - and, during the Korean War, as it occupied enough South Korean territory to end up with “extensive private ownership of property” (but stopped being “fascist” after it lost this territory)…

I’m afraid that the word “fascist” as defined by you here is not all that useful…
 
To be fair Stalin’s Soviet Union was much more like fascism than marx’s Communism.

But they’re two sides to the same coin.
 
FiveLinden said:
I call dictatorships that are based on a single leader and supported by a single party that exclude all other parties, remove the right free speech and persecute opponents with state power but allow extensive private ownership of property and a largely free market ‘fascist’.
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so you wouldn’t call the National Socialists fascists then since they took all Jewish property and any property from groups and individuals who wouldn’t support the state including church property like Mussolini’s manifesto argued?

Mussolini also boasted that 65% of the Italian economy was in government hands.
 
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Da comrade. But think of how great it was for everyone to be equal at last!
 
The principle difference between fascism and the communist states mentioned is the attitude to private accumulation of wealth (ownership of the means of production and exchange). The ‘socialism’ of fascist states is better called corporatism. Another difference is of course attitude to religion. I think that is why the Church has never given strong support to a communist state but has given strong support to fascist states and rarely (ever?) condemned them while they fled as inappropriate forms of government.
 
abucs said:
Are Catholics still forbidden from sanctioning communists in any way and what would this practically mean?
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As Communism is anti-God and enshrines atheism, it is hard to see how supporting Communism could be compatible with Christianity.
 
PJH_74 said:
Socialism in the sense of center left parties elected in free societies and aside from things like abortion, aren’t really all that far from what the christian message is.
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Yes they are. And socialism is not center-left.

I would not even consider Scandinavian nations to be socialist. I know the American left looks upon them with wonder and awe, but they have considerable oil wealth.
 
SuperLuigi said:
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AlNg:
Could a Christian support Hillary?

Or is it better for a Christian to vote for a man who cheats on his wife with strippers and then denies it?
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  1. Has this even been proven?
  2. Looking at their policies and platform, I don’t think a lot of Democrats really care about cheating unless a Republican does it.
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Numerous “cheap professionals” have laid a claim on having had an affair with “Cristiano Ronaldo”. Guess what: It ain’t true!!! A guy like that wouldn’t need it, or do it…Those lies sell newspapers, boost ratings, and garner the spotlight -even build careers- for the ones falsely accusing. [Cristiano Ronaldo!!! Every single top-model in the world would a piece of him. 🙂 ]
 
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If religion was the opioid of the masses as Marx claimed, communism was its methamphetamine.

Poorly quoted Jordan Peterson.
 
PJH_74 said:
If anything, Socialism in the sense of center left parties elected in free societies and aside from things like abortion, aren’t really all that far from what the christian message is.
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So aside from supporting a legal right to slaughter millions of innocent children it isn’t that far off the Christian message?
 
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What fascist government specifically did the church ever endorse
 
JanSobieskiIII said:
What fascist government specifically did the church ever endorse
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I Church gave strong support to Spain, Portugal, Croatia, Slovenia, Argentina, Chile, at times when they were ruled by oppressive dictatorships. The bishops of Austria formally welcomed annexation by Nazi Germany. And then there is Italy. The Church tends not to ‘endorse’ regimes. I posted about ‘strong support’.
 
Only the Austrians and Italians from the countries listed ever actually had a fascist party in power. I’ll let Croatia slide since it was a puppet state of Nazi germany.

Franco nor Pinochet were fascists. They saved their countries from communism, their methods were harsh but necessary. Good men put in a tough spot and had to make hard choices.
 
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FiveLinden said:
I Church gave strong support to Spain, Portugal, Croatia, Slovenia, Argentina, Chile, at times when they were ruled by oppressive dictatorships.
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What exactly do you take as defining features of “oppressive dictatorships”?

For that matter, one should look at alternatives. Franco might look very bad when compared with some saint, but in Spanish Civil War the alternative to Franco were Republicans dominated by Communists. And it is not so hard to look better than they did.

And also, there is a point that people generally do not like being killed. And, for example, Catholics in Spain had a good reason to suspect that if Republican side would win, they would be killed sooner or later. Under such conditions mere “oppressive dictatorship” doesn’t look that bad. Especially if it is at least somewhat plausible that it mostly “oppresses” that other side…
FiveLinden said:
And then there is Italy.
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Perhaps you should read “Non abbiamo bisogno” by Pius XI (Non Abbiamo Bisogno (June 29, 1931) | PIUS XI)… Somehow, I don’t think Mussolini considered that to be “strong support”…
 
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According to Heikki Harju, Sweden got rich from metals and Finland from war reparations.
 
Andy235 said:
Well, if you use only that very limited definition of socialism then it would be wrong. But other Encyclicals strongly condemn global capitalism as well… If that condemnation of “moderate” socialism is so, American capitalism is strongly immoral too.
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<<34. Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism.>>

So: It is wrong to vote for either a socialist or a capitalist? Who is there left to vote for?
 
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