Pope JP2 a Liberal?

[stmaria]

ncjohn;2938033]
And while you may have a distaste for the Pope’s calling of the people of the world to pray together for peace in Assisi, there is not only NOT sin present there, or a condoning of anyone else’s belief system, but it is in total accord with what Vatican II called for in outreach to the world. People are certainly allowed their preference for a more isolationist stance, but that does not make the ecumenical approach invalid or the Church’s teachings to be in error.

Are you aware that Buddhists went inside the Church and entered the sanctuary and placed a statue of Budda on top of the Tabernacle? Is that what you call “outreach to the world”?

geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/5816/jp2.html

“To their credit, the **Evangelical Protestants rejected **an
Invitation from the Pope to participate, as they quite
rightfuly stated, the event could only be seen as an infraction
of the First Commandment and the destruction of boundaries
between Truth and falsehood “​

(New York Times) — “The day produced some extraordinary
cultural encounters. The Buddists, let by the Dalia Lama,
quickly **converted the altar of the Church of San Pietro by
palcing a statue of Budda on top of the Tabernacle **and settingprayer scrolls and incense burners around it”

The following is from a Baptist website. I don’t think they have any desire to convert to Catholicism after Assisi.
: wayoflife.org/fbns/popesstrange.htm

"An interesting description of some of the strange events at Assisi was given as follows in an Associated Press report:

“ASSISI, Italy–Chants, temple bells and pagan spells echoed around the Roman Catholic shrines of Assisi yesterday as Pope John Paul II and his 200 guests from the world’s 12 main religions prayed for world peace…
“The medicineman of the Crow Indians [spirit worshippers], Chief John Pretty-on-Top, offered to cast out evil spirits. Many came forward, among them a young Franciscan monk.

“In a chapel down the road, the head of the Zorastrian church in Bombay prayed before a fire that symbolized his God.
“Next door, six turbanned Sikhs–all Italian converts–sat chanting their prayers in the lotus position to gramophone music.
“At an old Roman temple, shoeless Moslems sat on prayer mats.
“The 14th Dalai Lama, exiled god-king of Tibet, headed the strong Buddhist contingent, mumbling sutras amid tinkling bells at the Basilica of St. Peter.

“In the gardens outside, a Shinto sect called Tenrikyo, in black kimonos, swayed to temple music.
“African animists, their togas the envy of any designer, invoked the spirits of trees and plants to come to the aid of peace

WHAT PRAYERS WERE SAID?

An example of the prayers that were offered to the false gods is seen in the prayers of the animists from Africa and North America. Two tribal animists from Africa intoned:
“Almighty God, the Great Thumb we cannot evade in tying any knot, the Roaring Thunder that splits mighty trees, the All-Seeing Lord up on high who sees even the foot prints of an antelope on a rock mass here on earth… you are the cornerstone of peace.”

Smoking a ceremonial peace pipe, John Pretty-on-Top, a Crow Indian medicine man from Montana in full-feathered headress, recited, “O Great Spirit, I raise my pipe to you, to your messengers the four winds, and to mother earth, who provides for your children… I pray that you bring peace to all my brothers and sisters of this world” (“A Summit for Peace in Assisi,” Time, November 10, 1986, pp. 78-79).

 

[ncjohn]

Are you aware that Buddhists went inside the Church and entered the sanctuary and placed a statue of Budda on top of the Tabernacle? Is that what you call “outreach to the world”?

Yes, and that that situation was quickly rectified when they realized the ramifications of what they had done. There was no intent to dishonor on their part. I too have unintentionally dishonored other people’s belief systems through my ignorance. The fact that I do not ascribe to their belief system does not give me the right to act in a disrespectful way toward them.

“To their credit, the **Evangelical Protestants rejected **an
Invitation from the Pope to participate, as they quite
rightfuly stated, the event could only be seen as an infraction
of the First Commandment and the destruction of boundaries
between Truth and falsehood “

I would find the most telling thing in that to be that you agree with the Evangelical Protestants rather than the Pope.

WHAT PRAYERS WERE SAID?

An example of the prayers that were offered to the false gods is seen in the prayers of the animists from Africa and North America. Two tribal animists from Africa intoned:
“Almighty God, the Great Thumb we cannot evade in tying any knot, the Roaring Thunder that splits mighty trees, the All-Seeing Lord up on high who sees even the foot prints of an antelope on a rock mass here on earth… you are the cornerstone of peace.”

Smoking a ceremonial peace pipe, John Pretty-on-Top, a Crow Indian medicine man from Montana in full-feathered headress, recited, “O Great Spirit, I raise my pipe to you, to your messengers the four winds, and to mother earth, who provides for your children… I pray that you bring peace to all my brothers and sisters of this world” (“A Summit for Peace in Assisi,” Time, November 10, 1986, pp. 78-79).

Many prayers were said by many people of good will. You may not care for their style of praying, but the God who created and loves each one of them infinitely promised to hear the prayers of those who cry out to Him. Are you suggesting that He changed His mind and only hears Catholic prayers?

I must say that I am utterly baffled by the idea of opposing people praying together for peace. How can we ever work for unity if we cannot even consider praying together? On what basis is there common ground if not a desire to communicate with God, a desire that is written on our hearts, regardless of how badly we might hear Him.

Peace,

 

[latinmass]

Thank you, John, for your words of faith, wisdom and reason.

And love without truth is dead. The liberals mistake being nice or pc as love. This is not love. Children of God stand up for the truth, not cower in their excuses of beign pc.

 

[Indyann]

And just who do you think you are to define who is a “liberal”?
what is a “mistake”?
And who do you think you are to define “love”?
GOD IS LOVE.

Or to put it quite succinctly, who died and made you pope?

 

[davidcoit]

You can’t be old and wise untill you have been young and stupid.

 

[Indyann]

You can’t be old and wise untill you have been young and stupid.

Well, somehow, by the grace of God, I lived through the young and stupid phase. Now I’m old, and waiting for the “wisdom” phase to kick in. But I surely do recognize it, when I see it in others.

 

[latinmass]

And just who do you think you are to define who is a “liberal”?
what is a “mistake”?
And who do you think you are to define “love”?
GOD IS LOVE.

Or to put it quite succinctly, who died and made you pope?

Easy. A liberal would say, “all religions are meaningful” “protestants are not heretics” “we are worship the same God” Love is bringing someone to Christ, which can’t be done by giving them false truths. If you love Christ you will keep his commands.

 

[latinmass]

Well, somehow, by the grace of God, I lived through the young and stupid phase. Now I’m old, and waiting for the “wisdom” phase to kick in. But I surely do recognize it, when I see it in others.

It may be hard for you to recognize a lot of things when you are misguided about the truth of Holy Scripture and Tradition. Pray for discernment.

 

[Sure]

Easy. A liberal would say, “all religions are meaningful” “protestants are not heretics” “we are worship the same God” Love is bringing someone to Christ, which can’t be done by giving them false truths. If you love Christ you will keep his commands.

Good point!

Thankfully, Pope John Paul II never did or said any of these things as you mean them.

 

[catharina]

I guess I just disagree that he did any such thing. One can show respect for individuals, and for the basic truths found in other religions, without “condoning” them or professing agreement with the religion as a whole or proclaiming or implying it to be “valid”.

If we want to be able to even discuss the idea of conversion we have to first be able to show respect for the person. Part of that person is their belief system, to which they have come from any number of different means, be it conscious decision, cultural or family heritage, or possibly just bad experience with other religions. And to be fair, many people are not Catholic because of very negative experiences with those claiming to speak for God and the Church, while acting in ways that do not at all match the gospel message we are all called to.

We have always had the dichotomy between those who believed that we could force people into submission–by such means as the Inquisition or the “convert or die” approach used with the Native Americans–and those who believed that people will follow those whose words AND actions reflect the Good News of Jesus Christ, as exemplified by the words of Francis of Assisi: Preach the gospel always; use words if necessary.

In the end, I am one of those that believes that fear does not convert, for who will come to love a toxic God who is out to get us? I believe we will bring people to Christ, as I was brought myself, by being people who live that professed faith and from whom even the “hard” words are clearly and obviously spoken from a position of love and respect.

We’re going to be evangelists for what we believe in every single day, whether we want to or not. Everybody is on their journey, and they are at different points on their journey. We have to be able and willing to accept them where they are while modelling what the peace of Christ looks like, for I truly believe that that is the only thing that can transform hearts. Doctrine that doesn’t have actions of love to accompany it is just more hypocracy, and is quickly seen through, thus becoming counter-productive.

I think the Fathers of Vatican II clearly understood all of this. And I think JP2 clearly understood all of this. To think that a Pope of the Church, especially one as holy and devoted to the Church as he was, was “condoning false religions” is ludicrous to me. Yes, he was human and could certainly make human errors. But his stand with regard to other religions is a matter of faith in which he was protected from speaking error and as I said, I don’t believe for a second he was doing anything of the sort.

One may not like his approach, but I don’t think one can claim it to be sinful. The journey of a thousand miles begins with the single step, and sometimes that step must be nothing more than letting people come to realize that you are not threatening to them and truly are concerned for their welfare. And further that your ultimate goals are the same as theirs. Unless and until they reach that point, nothing else you say will be of any use whatsoever. For, as St. Paul said “Truth without love is a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.”

We can take the approach of trying to exclude those who don’t measure up on our “worthiness meter”. Or we can try to include them, out of true Christlike love, and patiently and lovingly help them find their way. My words to live by are well-reflected by this wonderful little poem:

*He drew a circle that shut me out,
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
But love and I had the wit to win;
We drew a circle that took him in. *
Edwin Markham

I would claim that Vatican II could well be summed up in those words.

Peace,

Yours is a lovely post. Thank you. You said so much so well.

 

[catharina]

Yes, and that that situation was quickly rectified when they realized the ramifications of what they had done. There was no intent to dishonor on their part. I too have unintentionally dishonored other people’s belief systems through my ignorance. The fact that I do not ascribe to their belief system does not give me the right to act in a disrespectful way toward them.

I would find the most telling thing in that to be that you agree with the Evangelical Protestants rather than the Pope.

Many prayers were said by many people of good will. You may not care for their style of praying, but the God who created and loves each one of them infinitely promised to hear the prayers of those who cry out to Him. Are you suggesting that He changed His mind and only hears Catholic prayers?

I must say that I am utterly baffled by the idea of opposing people praying together for peace. How can we ever work for unity if we cannot even consider praying together? On what basis is there common ground if not a desire to communicate with God, a desire that is written on our hearts, regardless of how badly we might hear Him.

Peace,

Again, I thank you for your post.

 

[catharina]

And love without truth is dead. The liberals mistake being nice or pc as love. This is not love. Children of God stand up for the truth, not cower in their excuses of beign pc.

**“Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called the children of God.”

So says Jesus Christ the Lord.**

Making peace is far removed from “pc” or nice.
When words become insults, it’s time to step away from the exchange.

 

[stmaria]

ncjohn;2939124]Yes, and that that situation was quickly rectified when they realized the ramifications of what they had done. There was no intent to dishonor on their part. I too have unintentionally dishonored other people’s belief systems through my ignorance. The fact that I do not ascribe to their belief system does not give me the right to act in a disrespectful way toward them

.
**" I am the Lord thy God, thall shall not have strange gods before Me" **An idol of a false god was put upon the Tabernacle of the True God and you are not disgusted? You really believe that they didn’t know the ramifications? These were not ignorant people. They knew what they were doing.

I

would find the most telling thing in that to be that you agree with the Evangelical Protestants rather than the Pope.

The evangelicials refused to come in 1986 as did Cardinal Ratzinger.

Many prayers were said by many people of good will. You may not care for their style of praying, but the God who created and loves each one of them infinitely promised to hear the prayers of those who cry out to Him. Are you suggesting that He changed His mind and only hears Catholic prayers

?

He does not hear the prayers prayed to the devil.

First epistle of John 4:2-3 “every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, while every spirit that fails to acknowledge him does not belong to God. Such is the spirit of the antichrist"

1 Cor.10 20 “the pagans sacrifice to** demons and not to God**, and I do not want you to become sharers with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and likewise the table of demons"

I must say that I am utterly baffled by the idea of opposing people praying together for peace. How can we ever work for unity if we cannot even consider praying together? On what basis is there common ground if not a desire to communicate with God, a desire that is written on our hearts, regardless of how badly we might hear Him.

The prayers for peace said at Assisi in 1986 and again in 2002 have not been anwsered.

 

[dixieagle]

You can’t be old and wise untill you have been young and stupid.

And haven’t we all been there?

 

[ncjohn]

.
**" I am the Lord thy God, thall shall not have strange gods before Me" **An idol of a false god was put upon the Tabernacle of the True God and you are not disgusted? You really believe that they didn’t know the ramifications? These were not ignorant people. They knew what they were doing.

I
The evangelicials refused to come in 1986 as did Cardinal Ratzinger.

?

He does not hear the prayers prayed to the devil.

First epistle of John 4:2-3 “every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, while every spirit that fails to acknowledge him does not belong to God. Such is the spirit of the antichrist"

1 Cor.10 20 “the pagans sacrifice to** demons and not to God**, and I do not want you to become sharers with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and also the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and likewise the table of demons"

The prayers for peace said at Assisi in 1986 and again in 2002 have not been anwsered.

One can certainly hold those beliefs, but one can’t hold them and claim to be in communion with the Church. If you truly believe that anyone who isn’t Catholic is a devil worshipper there isn’t much common ground for discussion.

And Cardinal Ratzinger has publicly stated that there was nothing wrong with the gathering so you might want to not try to use him as support for these arguments.

Peace,

 

[stmaria]

One can certainly hold those beliefs, but one can’t hold them and claim to be in communion with the Church.

If you truly believe that anyone who isn’t Catholic is a devil worshipper there isn’t much common ground for discussion

 

[stmaria]

The question of this thread is about Pope John Paul and whether or not he is a liberal. In my opinion he was a little of both. Compared to past Popes, in some respects, he was liberal.
In the 1983 code of Canon Law he allowed, for the first time in the history of the Church, non-Catholics to receive communion. There were some conditions attached. But these conditions did not prevent President Bill Clinton from receiving communion in1998. This was during his adulterous affair. Protestant Brother Roger Schultz also received communion at the funeral of Pope John Paul.

"whoever eats of the lamb and is not a member of the Church, has profaned;" [Pope Pius IX Amantissimus # 3]

“**Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is unholy. Those who were not in the ark of Noah perished in the flood.” [Pope Gregory XVI Commissum Divinitus **

In 1980 Pope John Paul ruled against allowing women altar servers then after the abuse became widespread he decided in 1994 to allow it.

Pope Benedict XIV, Encyclical Allatae Sunt, July 26, 1755

"Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: ‘Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.’ We too have forbidden this practice in the same words…"

Many of his quotes regarding false religions I find in contradiction with the traditional teachings of the Church. In my opinion this gives the members of these false religions absolutely no reason to seek conversion to the True Faith.
FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE
TO THE HINDUS ON THE FEAST OF DIWALI 2006
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20061016_diwali_en.html

Dear Hindu Friends,
1.As people seeking for **the Absolute **you will pause for a short while on your spiritual journey and celebrate joyfully Deepavali, your ancient religious feast, which for you signifies the victory of truth over untruth, light over darkness, good over evil and life over death. On behalf of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue I wish Hindus all over the world **a happy feast of Diwali **

VISIT TO WADI AL-KHARRAR
PRAYER OF THE HOLY FATHER
Tuesday, 21 March 2000
“**May Saint John Baptist protect Islam **and all the people of Jordan, and all who participated in this celebration, a memorable celebration. I’m very grateful to all of you.” vatican.edu/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html

Why pray for the protection of Islam? What purpose does it serve?
The following needs protection by John the Baptist?

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth.** The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, **and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not ‘Three’ - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. **Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son **(Sura 4:171).

"The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; **may Allah destroy them **(Sura 9:29-30

Pope John Paul was a very holy man .His intentions were good. But in the traditional sense he was liberal especially in his obsession with ecumenism and relations with false religions.**

 

[catharina]

Pope John Paul was a very holy man .His intentions were good. But in the traditional sense he was liberal especially in his obsession with ecumenism and relations with false religions.

As I’ve said extreme conservatives have called him liberal
and extreme liberals have called him conservative.
Hardly unusual.

 

[latinmass]

**“Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called the children of God.”

So says Jesus Christ the Lord.**

Making peace is far removed from “pc” or nice.
When words become insults, it’s time to step away from the exchange.

No wars stopped as far as I know for being pc. I am speaking truth, I am sorry if that is insulting to you. Attempting to make peace with heretical teachings is nothing more than making peace with the devil that begat them.

 

[catharina]

ncjohn;2940555:

.

Cardinal Ratzinger did not attend in 1986 and stated his opposition to the prayer day as did other Cardinals and Bishops as well as Protestants. Yes he now says differently but I suspect damage control is now in effect

.

**
Yes, now he says differently as the Vicar of Christ, inspired as the Vicar of Christ by the Holy Spirit and fully graced (and more fully informed) as the Pope, the Holy Father.

I suspect damage control as a factor by some American politicians and by those who stand against the Church, such as the excommunicated bishops.**