Pope JP2 a Liberal?

[stmaria]

What does this mean?

If we don’t reach out to those others in love (as Mother Theresa did) how do we convert them?

Shouting “YOU, CONVERT NOW!” doesn’t tend to yield conversions. Talking with people and telling them what you believe does! But, in order to do that you have to start a dialogue with the person. You have to listen…not in order to be convinced by THEIR statement, but to open THEIR hearts to hear the Truth. Think about when you have helped someone convert. Did the process only involve you telling them what to believe? Or did it involve them asking questions and talking about what they currently believe. That’s not false ecumenism, it’s converting people.

Conversion is off the table.

Vatican/WCC study on conversion affirms freedom of religion, warns about "obsession of converting others"
www2.wcc-coe.org/pressreleasesen.nsf/index/pu-06-04.htm

“A study process jointly sponsored by the Vatican and the World Council of Churches (WCC) kicked off this week by affirming the freedom of religion as a “non-negotiable” human right valid for everyone everywhere **while at the same time stressing that the “obsession of converting others” needs to be cured **“

 

[ncjohn]

.

You can’t be serious.When will this liberal nonsense stop.The god they are praying to is a FALSE god. Maybe we should just smash the First Commandment. Maybe ncjohn you don’t think the First Commandment applies to modern man.

There is only one God. They may not recognize God in the same form that we do, but it’s the only God there is and it is this God who is calliing to them. The first commandment is about putting other things ahead of God and thus neglecting the primary things of God. In the extended sense that can include worshipping idols or statues rather than the God they represent. But to imply that those who honestly are seeking God are praying to a “false” god is hogwash.

The Catholic faith is not in the picture. Conversion is no longer on the table. Vatican II was over 40 years ago. There has been no effort to bring false religions the TRUTH. Instead we get dialogue which leads to the false religions believing that they have the TRUTH.

Maybe in your mind. Highly doubtful there was any such thing in the Pope’s mind, and to insinuate otherwise without omniscience is rash judgment at the very least. And as to whether there is an effort to bring others to the Truth, that is again a broad-brushed subjective opionion that would most certainly not hold up to the Church’s belief and practice, though it may be so in some specific cases by specific individuals. Believe it or not other people may have other ways than yours to accomplish the same goal.

stmaria:

ncjohn:

Those who believe that you can really just walk up to someone with their own culture, history, and religious beliefs and have them just drop everything because you told them their religion is “false” are truly delusional in my opinion

I recall hearing about someone called Jesus that did exactly that.

Baloney.
Show me one place, anywhere, where Jesus ever said any such thing. In fact, exactly the opposite is true and Jesus never ONCE told anyone to go convert to any faith. In fact he sent Samaritans, the Syro-phonecian woman, the Roman centurian, and others on their way with the simple “go, your faith has healed you.”

You can continue to try to make every other person seeking God into a devil-worshipper, but the Church specifically says otherwise and recognizes that other people are at different places on their journeys and sometimes don’t have the benefit of having had someone truly model the peace of Christ for them. And quite frankly, had many from this site been around to do the modeling when I came back to the Church, I would have hit the road as fast as my feet would have taken me for it was exactly their “holier than thou” beat people over the heads approach, with the hypocracy that could preach but couldn’t live the gospel, that had driven me from the Church to begin with. Of course I’m sure there are some here who wish I had not come back and would happily drive me back out, but God seems to have other ideas so I’ll stick around anyway.

Peace,

 

[stmaria]

ncjohn;2976941]There is only one God. They may not recognize God in the same form that we do, but it’s the only God there is and it is this God who is calliing to them. The first commandment is about putting other things ahead of God and thus neglecting the primary things of God. In the extended sense that can include worshipping idols or statues rather than the God they represent. But to imply that those who honestly are seeking God are praying to a “false” god is hogwash.

This isn’t the first century. Hindus , Buddhists, Moslems etc all know about Jesus Christ. They could care less about the Christian God.They are content with their false gods.

Maybe in your mind. Highly doubtful there was any such thing in the Pope’s mind, and to insinuate otherwise without omniscience is rash judgment at the very least. And as to whether there is an effort to bring others to the Truth, that is again a broad-brushed subjective opionion that would most certainly not hold up to the Church’s belief and practice, though it may be so in some specific cases by specific individuals. Believe it or not other people may have other ways than yours to accomplish the same goal.

Conversion is no longer a goal of the Church.
Vatican/WCC study on conversion affirms freedom of religion, warns about "obsession of converting others"
www2.wcc-coe.org/pressreleasesen.nsf/index/pu-06-04.html
“A study process jointly sponsored by the Vatican and the World Council of Churches (WCC) kicked off this week by affirming the freedom of religion as a “non-negotiable” human right valid for everyone everywhere while at the same time stressing that the “**obsession of converting others” needs to be cured **“

Show me one place, anywhere, where Jesus ever said any such thing. In fact, exactly the opposite is true and Jesus never ONCE told anyone to go convert to any faith. In fact he sent Samaritans, the Syro-phonecian woman, the Roman centurian, and others on their way with the simple “go, your faith has healed you.”

Jesus told them to convert to Him.
John 14:6 “ I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me”

Matthew 28:19-20 “ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, Baptize them in the name of the father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you. And know I am with you always, until the end of the world.”

Matthew 10:33 “But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven”

You can continue to try to make every other person seeking God into a devil-worshipper, but the Church specifically says otherwise

*PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS
ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE MODERNISTS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X, SEPTEMBER 8, 1907 *
14.
How far this position is removed from that of Catholic teaching! We have already seen how its fallacies have been condemned by the Vatican Council. Later on, we shall see how these errors, combined with those which we have already mentioned, open wide the way to Atheism. Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? Will they claim a monopoly of true experiences for Catholics alone? Indeed, Modernists do not deny, but actually maintain, some confusedly, others frankly, that all religions are true."

Pope Leo XIII AD Extremas #1
“ Through his extraordinary perseverance, he converted hundred of thousands of** Hindus from the myths and vile superstitions of the Brahmans **to the true religion…many are still deprived of the truth, miserably imprisoned in the darkness of superstitution:

".Also perverse is that shocking theory that it makes no difference to which religion one belongs, a theory greatly at variance with reason. By means of this theory, those crafty men remove all distinction between virtue and vice, truth and error, honourable and vile action. They pretend that men can gain eternal salvation between light and darkness, or any agreement between Christ and Belisl.(Pope PiusIX, Qui Pluribus(#15) , Nov. 9,1846)

"It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal salvation on their members…by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. (Pope LeoXII, Ubi Primum(#14), May5,1824)

 

[St_Isidore]

What does this mean?

Exactly what it says.

If we don’t reach out to those others in love (as Mother Theresa did) how do we convert them?

This Ecumenism you obviously support, Can you be more precise as to what is the time Agenda for this conversion you speak of? This Ecumensitic tactic has been around for sometime (>30 years) and what are your statistics on this liberal conversion you dictate?

As far as World Religious Statistics go Christianity (including Catholicism) is on the decline (post V2- remember V2 ideologies were on the rise slightly before V2 as well, V2 was the final result).

Islam is the fastest growing Religion, and by Popes attributing praises of Islam and Muslims, does not forward Catholicism nor the Salvation of souls. It strengthens the resolve of Muslims.

Via personal experience, Muslims are quite happy with comments by Popes such as these, and are happy that conversion to Islam has been initiated.

Shouting “YOU, CONVERT NOW!” doesn’t tend to yield conversions. Talking with people and telling them what you believe does! But, in order to do that you have to start a dialogue with the person. You have to listen…not in order to be convinced by THEIR statement, but to open THEIR hearts to hear the Truth. Think about when you have helped someone convert. Did the process only involve you telling them what to believe? Or did it involve them asking questions and talking about what they currently believe. That’s not false ecumenism, it’s converting people.

Nobody is shouting about conversion. This has been used repeatedly as an excuse for the failed Ecumenism of V2. But it is obvious that there is no conversion in sight!!! Your subtle talks have not seen conversions as you may have hoped. Islam is the Fastest growing religion and shows no slowing down, and Hinduism likewise is on the rise globally. Show us exactly how it is this Ecumenism is working.

There are many participations in various pagan/heretical rituals by Ecumenists, but this conversion is unheard of.

What of the past Infallible Church teachings contrary to V2 Decrees on Ecumenism?:

Mortalium Animos — Pope Pius XI

: …It will be opportune to expound and to reject a certain false opinion which lies at the root of this question and of that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of Christian churches. Those who favor this view constantly quote the words of Christ, “That they may be one…And there shall be one fold and one shepherd…” in the sense that Christ thereby merely expressed a desire or a prayer which as yet has not been granted. The Church, they say, is of its nature divided into sections composed of several churches…which still remain separated, and although holding in common some articles of doctrine, nevertheless differ concerning the remainder; that all these enjoy the same right… controversies must be set aside…** These… who strive for the union of the churches would appear to pursue the noblest of ideals in promoting charity among all Christians. But… John himself, the Apostle of love, strictly forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt form of Christ’s teaching: “If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house, nor say to him, God speed you” (John 2:10). …it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics**. There is but one way in which the unity of Christians may be fostered, and that is by furthering the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it… it is chiefly by the bond of one Faith that the disciples of Christ are to be united

**Cantate Domino — Pope Eugene IV: **

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches, that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews arid heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

(to be continued…)

 

[St_Isidore]

(continued from Post # 382 )

**Fourth Lateran Council: **

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.

Satis Cognitum — Pope Leo XIII:

God indeed even made the Church a society far more perfect than any other. For the end for which the Church exists is as much higher than the end of other societies as divine grace is above natural, as immortal blessings are above the passing things of the earth. Therefore, the Church is a society divine in its origin, supernatural in its end and in the means proximately adapted to the attainment of that end; but it is a human community inasmuch as it is composed of men. For this reason we find it called in Holy Scriptures by names indicating a perfect society.

**Lamentabili — Pope St. Pius X: **

Moreover, by divine and Catholic faith, everything must be believed that is contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and that is proposed by the Church as a divinely revealed object of belief, either in a solemn decree or in her ordinary, universal teaching (Vatican I).

…the following propositions…are condemned and proscribed: Error 53. The organic constitution of the Church is not immutable. Like human society, Christian society is subject to perpetual evolution.

1917 Code of Canon Law: Canon 1101. It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part, in the services of non-Catholics.

**Satis Cognitum — Pope Leo XIII: **

*The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, certainly did not reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain part of it. *Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical doctrines who followed them in subsequent ages. “There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole series of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, taint the real and simple Faith taught by Our Lord and handed down by apostolic tradition… From this it is easy to see that men can fall away from the unity of the Church by schism, as well as by heresy.” “We think that this difference exists between heresy and schism,” writes St. Jerome: “Heresy has no perfect dogmatic teaching, whereas schism, through some episcopal dissent, also separates from the Church.” In which judgment St. John Chrysostom agrees: “I say and protest,” he writes, “that it is as wrong to divide the Church as it is to fall into heresy.” Hence as no heresy can ever be justifiable, so in like manner there can be no justification for schism. “There is nothing more grievous than the sacrilege of schism…there can be no just necessity for destroying the unity of the Church…” From a variety of interpretations a variety of beliefs is necessarily generated; hence come controversies, dissensions, and wranglings such as have arisen in the past, even in the first ages of the Church. Irenaeus writes of heretics as follows: “Admitting the Holy Scriptures they distort the interpretations.” And Augustine: “Heresies have arisen, and certain perverse views ensnaring souls and precipitating them into the abyss, only when the Scriptures, good in themselves, are not properly understood”.

**Mediator Dei — Pope Pius XII: **

More properly, since the liturgy is also a profession of eternal truths, and subject, as such, to the Supreme Teaching Authority of the Church, it can supply proofs and testimony, quite clearly of no little value, towards the determination of a particular point of Christian doctrine. But if one desires to differentiate and describe the relationship between faith and the sacred liturgy in absolute and general terms, it is perfectly correct to say: “Lex credendi, legem statuit supplicandi: let the rule of belief determine the rule of prayer.”

**Satis Cognitum — Pope Leo XIII: **

There must also be the fitting and devout worship of God, which is to be found chiefly in the divine Sacrifice and in the dispensation of the sacraments, as well as salutary laws and discipline. All these must be found in the Church, since it continues the mission of the Savior forever. The Church alone offers to the human race that religion — that state of absolute perfection — which He wished, as it were to be incorporated in it. And it alone supplies those means of salvation which accord with the ordinary counsels of Providence.

 

[ncjohn]

ncjohn:

You can continue to try to make every other person seeking God into a devil-worshipper, but the Church specifically says otherwise

*PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS​

etc
etc
ad nauseum*

:yawn:
Sheesh, just the same stuff over and over.

You can continue to not understand the Church’s position, and continue to try to find inconsistencies that aren’t there because you want to find inconsistencies. But the fact is that they aren’t there and the Church disagrees with your inconsistencies.

I’ll stick with the Church over other’s attempts to find inconsistencies and others unwillingness to consider that they may not have as great an understanding as the Church or that there may be more than one way to bring people to God.

Clearly, wasting any further time when there really is no discussion to be had or interest in actually coming to understanding is counter-productive. You’re not going to pull me away from the Church and I’m not going to pull you away from what you want to believe so I’ll just leave it at that.

Peace to you,

 

[St_Isidore]

(continued from Post # 382 )

**Fourth Lateran Council: **

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.

Satis Cognitum — Pope Leo XIII:

God indeed even made the Church a society far more perfect than any other. For the end for which the Church exists is as much higher than the end of other societies as divine grace is above natural, as immortal blessings are above the passing things of the earth. Therefore, the Church is a society divine in its origin, supernatural in its end and in the means proximately adapted to the attainment of that end; but it is a human community inasmuch as it is composed of men. For this reason we find it called in Holy Scriptures by names indicating a perfect society.

**Lamentabili — Pope St. Pius X: **

Moreover, by divine and Catholic faith, everything must be believed that is contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and that is proposed by the Church as a divinely revealed object of belief, either in a solemn decree or in her ordinary, universal teaching (Vatican I).

…the following propositions…are condemned and proscribed: Error 53. The organic constitution of the Church is not immutable. Like human society, Christian society is subject to perpetual evolution.

1917 Code of Canon Law: Canon 1101. It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part, in the services of non-Catholics.

**Satis Cognitum — Pope Leo XIII: **

*The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, certainly did not reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a certain part of it. *Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical doctrines who followed them in subsequent ages. “There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole series of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, taint the real and simple Faith taught by Our Lord and handed down by apostolic tradition… From this it is easy to see that men can fall away from the unity of the Church by schism, as well as by heresy.” “We think that this difference exists between heresy and schism,” writes St. Jerome: “Heresy has no perfect dogmatic teaching, whereas schism, through some episcopal dissent, also separates from the Church.” In which judgment St. John Chrysostom agrees: “I say and protest,” he writes, “that it is as wrong to divide the Church as it is to fall into heresy.” Hence as no heresy can ever be justifiable, so in like manner there can be no justification for schism. “There is nothing more grievous than the sacrilege of schism…there can be no just necessity for destroying the unity of the Church…” From a variety of interpretations a variety of beliefs is necessarily generated; hence come controversies, dissensions, and wranglings such as have arisen in the past, even in the first ages of the Church. Irenaeus writes of heretics as follows: “Admitting the Holy Scriptures they distort the interpretations.” And Augustine: “Heresies have arisen, and certain perverse views ensnaring souls and precipitating them into the abyss, only when the Scriptures, good in themselves, are not properly understood”.

**Mediator Dei — Pope Pius XII: **

More properly, since the liturgy is also a profession of eternal truths, and subject, as such, to the Supreme Teaching Authority of the Church, it can supply proofs and testimony, quite clearly of no little value, towards the determination of a particular point of Christian doctrine. But if one desires to differentiate and describe the relationship between faith and the sacred liturgy in absolute and general terms, it is perfectly correct to say: “Lex credendi, legem statuit supplicandi: let the rule of belief determine the rule of prayer.”

**Satis Cognitum — Pope Leo XIII: **

There must also be the fitting and devout worship of God, which is to be found chiefly in the divine Sacrifice and in the dispensation of the sacraments, as well as salutary laws and discipline. All these must be found in the Church, since it continues the mission of the Savior forever. The Church alone offers to the human race that religion — that state of absolute perfection — which He wished, as it were to be incorporated in it. And it alone supplies those means of salvation which accord with the ordinary counsels of Providence.

To Sure,

DID you know that Conversion is no longer necessary according to the Church?

 

[St_Isidore]

Shouting “YOU, CONVERT NOW!” doesn’t tend to yield conversions. Talking with people and telling them what you believe does! But, in order to do that you have to start a dialogue with the person. You have to listen…not in order to be convinced by THEIR statement, but to open THEIR hearts to hear the Truth. Think about when you have helped someone convert. Did the process only involve you telling them what to believe? Or did it involve them asking questions and talking about what they currently believe. That’s not false ecumenism, it’s converting people.

As StMaria has pointed out in posts #379 and #381,
Conversion is no longer a goal. So I think you are little behind on current events.

Please refer to the link.

 

[Sure]

As StMaria has pointed out in posts #379 and #381,
Conversion is no longer a goal. So I think you are little behind on current events.

Please refer to the link.

I read the link. Maybe you guys should read it too. The portion quoted by stmaria was in the news article not in the document itself.

Here is the actual text from the document:

We affirm that while everyone has a right to invite others to an understanding of their faith, it should not be exercised by violating other’s rights and religious sensibilities. At the same time, all should heal themselves from the obsession of converting others.

There is no problem with this statement. No one should be “obsessed” with conversion or anything else (except God).

Let’s look at what the document says on conversion:

We acknowledge that errors have been perpetrated and injustice committed by the adherents of every faith. Therefore, it is incumbent on every community to conduct honest self-critical examination of its historical conduct as well as its doctrinal/theological precepts. Such self-criticism and repentance should lead to necessary reforms inter alia on the issue of conversion.

A particular reform that we would commend to practitioners and establishments of all faiths is to ensure that conversion by “unethical” means are discouraged and rejected by one and all. There should be transparency in the practice of inviting others to one’s faith.

We see the need for and usefulness of a continuing exercise to collectively evolve a “code of conduct” on conversion, which all faiths should follow. We therefore feel that inter-religious dialogues on the issue of conversion should continue at various levels.

Okay…They don’t look all that scary. Especially when they cover Muslims trying to convert Christians, then they look like pretty good ideas.

Also, if we’re discussing Church teaching then it might be helpful to examine actual Church documents and not articles about resolutions.

Thank you for posting all those previous Church statements on conversion. Can you please show me where each is contradicted by Unitatis Redintigratio?

 

[St_Isidore]

There is only one God. They may not recognize God in the same form that we do, but it’s the only God there is and it is this God who is calliing to them. The first commandment is about putting other things ahead of God and thus neglecting the primary things of God. In the extended sense that can include worshipping idols or statues rather than the God they represent. But to imply that those who honestly are seeking God are praying to a “false” god is hogwash.

Utter nonsense.
Are you saying Allah/Rama/Krishna/Vishnu/Ganesha/Lakshmi/Buddha et all,
are the same as the Most Holy Trinity who is GOD?

Maybe in your mind. Highly doubtful there was any such thing in the Pope’s mind,

It is surprising that you do not realize that conversion no longer an option.

Baloney.
Show me one place, anywhere, where Jesus ever said any such thing

.
You need to pick up the Bible Son.

Check this:

**St John 2 :22 **

Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son.

**St John 1:7 **

For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist.

**St Matthew 12 :30 **

He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

but God seems to have other ideas so I’ll stick around anyway.

And which God are you referring to here?

 

[St_Isidore]

I read the link. Maybe you guys should read it too.

Read it again.

There is no problem with this statement. No one should be “obsessed” with conversion or anything else (except God).

Thank you for posting all those previous Church statements on conversion. Can you please show me where each is contradicted by Unitatis Redintigratio?

If you are referring to posts#382 and #383, you are welcome. If you are referring to those Infallible documents concerning Ecumenism, and cannot see a difference I hesitate to ask, have you read Decree on Ecumenism - Unitatis Redintegratio?
Here is the link:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
If you have not read it well click the link, and if you have well , read it again.

e.g.
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO
6. Christ summons the Church to continual reformation as she sojourns here on earth. The Church is always in need of this, in so far as she is an institution of men here on earth. Thus if, in various times and circumstances, there have been deficiencies in moral conduct or in church discipline, or even in the way that church teaching has been formulated-to be carefully distinguished from the deposit of faith itself-these can and should be set right at the opportune moment.

Does this mean that previous infallible Church doctrinal formulations were deficient?

1. In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers “for unity,” and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren.

Now refer back to Posts #382/383
see anything different?

 

[ncjohn]

Utter nonsense.
Are you saying Allah/Rama/Krishna/Vishnu/Ganesha/Lakshmi/Buddha et all,
are the same as the Most Holy Trinity who is GOD?

I’m saying there is only one God. Others may not understand the face of God as we do–indeed we cannot really understand God ourselves in our tiny finite minds–but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t God. Are you trying to say that there is more than one god and that other people pray to a different God?

It is surprising that you do not realize that conversion no longer an option.

I have no clue what you might be saying here especially as it regards what you are responding to.

You need to pick up the Bible Son.

I dare say there’s a good chance I’ve been picking up Bibles longer than you’ve been alive. Thanks for the adoption though.

Check this:

**St John 2 :22 **

Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son.

**St John 1:7 **

For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist.

**St Matthew 12 :30 **

He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

And where there does Jesus tell anyone to convert to anything? Two of the three aren’t even from the gospels and are not words of Jesus. And the third is very quickly countered with “anyone is who is not against us is for us.” Neither has anything to do with conversion. Jesus constantly sent people of other beliefs on their way with the phrase that “…your faith has healed you.” Never a single time does he say “go to the synagogue and convert”.

And which God are you referring to here?

Since I’m the one saying there is only one God and you are the one claiming there are many, I’m not sure who this question is directed to.

But again, it is clear that you are looking for inconsistencies and want to find ways to exclude people from possibly entering the Kingdom except by your rules and in accordance with your “worthiness meter”. Fortunately the Church teaches otherwise so again, I’ll not waste any further time debating and I’ll follow the Church.

Peace,

 

[St_Isidore]

I’m saying there is only one God. Others may not understand the face of God as we do–indeed we cannot really understand God ourselves in our tiny finite minds–but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t God. Are you trying to say that there is more than one god and that other people pray to a different God?

Nice try, Answer a question with a question. Well I will answer your question: There is only One GOD i.e. the Most Holy Trinity.

Now please reciprocate: Is Allah the Trinity?

I have no clue what you might be saying

And again

And where there does Jesus tell anyone to convert to anything?

So according to you, Jesus does not want conversion?

**Acts 15:3.
**
They therefore, being brought on their way by the church, passed through Phenice and Samaria, relating the conversion of the Gentiles. And they caused great joy to all the brethren.

Illi igitur deducti ab ecclesia pertransiebant Foenicen et Samariam narrantes conversionem gentium et faciebant gaudium magnum omnibus fratribus

Since I’m the one saying there is only one God and you are the one claiming there are many, I’m not sure who this question is directed to.

So is Allah the Most Holy Trinity?
(y/n)

 

[ncjohn]

Nice try, Answer a question with a question. Well I will answer your question: There is only One GOD i.e. the Most Holy Trinity.

Now please reciprocate: Is Allah the Trinity?

Allah is the name used by the Muslims for the one and only God. They do not have an understanding of the Trinity but it doesn’t change the fact that there is only one God and all people are praying to Him whether they understand that or not, except satanists or someone specifically intending to invoke evil.

And again

Well, that was helpful. Since what you said wasn’t a sentence and made no reference to anything I said, I still have no idea what you were referencing.

So according to you, Jesus does not want conversion?

Don’t put words in my mouth. What Jesus wants in conversion of hearts, which will lead people to seek Truth. If they encounter someone who they feel has the credibility to lead them to Truth, they will listen.

Clever though to just change the topic to avoid admitting that Jesus never once called somebody out to convert religions. The whole point being that you lead people to conversion by living the gospel message in a way that gives you credibility to then speak the gospel message. Without that credibility you can change nothing. With credibility people will journey with you.

**Acts 15:3.
**
They therefore, being brought on their way by the church, passed through Phenice and Samaria, relating the conversion of the Gentiles. And they caused great joy to all the brethren.

Illi igitur deducti ab ecclesia pertransiebant Foenicen et Samariam narrantes conversionem gentium et faciebant gaudium magnum omnibus fratribus

And again, these are NOT the words of Jesus. They are relating to someone else who was living the gospel message, thereby drawing people to them to find the Truth. It wasn’t until the Church became a secular power that they started to believe they could coerce or torture people into conversion. I daresay there are likely some here who long for those “good ole days”.

 

[stmaria]

Sure;2977514]I read the link. Maybe you guys should read it too. The portion quoted by stmaria was in the news article not in the document itself.

Here is the actual text from the document:“We affirm that while everyone has a right to invite others to an understanding of their faith, it should not be exercised by violating other’s rights and religious sensibilities. At the same time, all should heal themselves from the obsession of converting others”

There is no problem with this statement. No one should be “obsessed” with conversion or anything else (except God

).

The Church SHOULD be obsessed with conversion.

There is not even a desire for the RETURN of the separated. Just ask Cardinal Kasper: "The decision of Vatican II, to which the Pope [John Paul II] adheres and spreads, is absolutely clear: **Today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of the ecumenism of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘Catholics.’ This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II. Today **ecumenism is considered as the common road: all should be converted to the following of Christ, and it is in Christ that we will find ourselves in the end… Even the Pope, among other things, describes ecumenism in Ut unum sint as an exchange of gifts. I think this is very well said: each Church has its own riches and gifts of the Spirit, and it is this exchange that unity is trying to be achieved **and not the fact **that we should become ‘Protestants’ or that the others should become ‘Catholics’ in the sense of accepting the confessional form of Catholicism." (Adista, Rome, February 26, 2001, p. 9)

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUR40Y.HTM

Unitatis Redintegratio: A New Interpretation After 40 Years
Cardinal Walter KasperPresident of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity

“….The Decree on Ecumenism did not appear out of thin air. It fits into the context of the ecumenical movement that came into being in the 20th century outside the Catholic Church (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 4), and marked a decisive turning point with the creation of the “World Council of Churches” in 1948.
**This movement was long regarded with suspicion **by the Catholic Church. But its acceptance by the Second Vatican Council is rooted in the Catholic theology of the 19th century….On the other hand, the separate Communities have sometimes developed **certain aspects of the revealed truth better, **so that in the situation of division, the Catholic Church cannot fully and concretely develop her own catholicit.y **The Church therefore needs purification **and renewal and must ceaselessly take the way of penance …This self-critical and penitential vision is the basis of the progress of the ecumenical movement (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 5-12). It includes conversion and renewal, without which there can be no ecumenism or dialogue, because ecumenism, rather than an exchange of ideas, is an exchange of gifts… the goal of ecumenism cannot be conceived of **as a mere return of the others to the heart of the Catholic Church. The goal of full unity [can] be reached only through the action of the Spirit of God and the conversion of all to **the one Head of the Church, Jesus Christ. To the extent that we are united to Christ, we will all be united to one another as well, and will actuate in all its fullness the catholicity proper to the Church. This goal has been defined theologically by the Council as unity-communio.”

These are incredible statements. Protestants have developed certain aspects of the revealed truth better???
The Divinely revealed religion of Christ, The Mystical Body. needs purification???
Ecumenism** cannot be conceived as a mere return**???
Conversion to Jesus Christ** but not to the Church he founded **,and to this day guides, is the goal of ecumenism???

 

[stmaria]

ncjohn;2977365]:yawn:
Sheesh, just the same stuff over and over.

You can continue to not understand the Church’s position, and continue to try to find inconsistencies that aren’t there because you want to find inconsistencies. But the fact is that they aren’t there and the Church disagrees with your inconsistencies.

What is the Church’s position?

You’re not going to pull me away from the Church and I’m not going to pull you away from what you want to believe so I’ll just leave it at that.

I don’t want to pull you away, I want to pull you back in. Back to believing what the Church has ALWAYS taught.

 

[stmaria]

ncjohn;2978001]

It wasn’t until the Church became a secular power that they started **to believe they could coerce or torture people into conversion. **I daresay there are likely some here who long for those “good ole days”.

And from what anti-Catholic source did you dig this up?

 

[catharina]

Absolutely.

Praying with someone, or wishing them well on a day that they are focusing on God as they understand Him, does not equate to worshipping their God. What it does is show respect for them as people and honor their search for God.

Until one reaches that point where one is perceived to be working with someone in their search, they will have no credibility in trying to bring their Catholic faith into the picture. Those who believe that you can really just walk up to someone with their own culture, history, and religious beliefs and have them just drop everything because you told them their religion is “false” are truly delusional in my opinion. Until you can model the love of God of which you speak and respect them as the beloved children of God that they are, you cannot even begin to help their hearts toward conversion. As St. Francis of Assisi said, “preach the gospel always; use words if necessary.”

When one is known to be speaking with true love and concern for the person on the receiving end, the “hard truths” that need to be expressed can be expressed and heard. If one is simply perceived as looking down on the one receiving and being told “because I said so”, I have yet to see a valid example of a true conversion.

It’s not really much different than trying to get things through to teenagers. You can tell them to believe whatever you want, but they are going to believe what they will based on the credibility of the person they hear it from. One with no credibility will at best be politely ignored; at worst you’ll get rolled eyes or outright rebellion and a turn in the opposite direction.

As St. Paul said, one has to be all things to all men that some may be saved. He was probably the original ecumenist.

Peace,

Great points.

(Hard to imagine how many pagans were reached by Paul.)

PS

Obsessed with conversion? OBSESSED?
Graced with the spirit of evangelization, yes,
but obsessed with conversion?

 

[St_Isidore]

).

The Church SHOULD be obsessed with conversion.

There is not even a desire for the RETURN of the separated. Just ask Cardinal Kasper: "The decision of Vatican II, to which the Pope [John Paul II] adheres and spreads, is absolutely clear: **Today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of the ecumenism of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘Catholics.’ This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II. Today **ecumenism is considered as the common road: all should be converted to the following of Christ, and it is in Christ that we will find ourselves in the end… Even the Pope, among other things, describes ecumenism in Ut unum sint as an exchange of gifts. I think this is very well said: each Church has its own riches and gifts of the Spirit, and it is this exchange that unity is trying to be achieved **and not the fact **that we should become ‘Protestants’ or that the others should become ‘Catholics’ in the sense of accepting the confessional form of Catholicism." (Adista, Rome, February 26, 2001, p. 9)

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUR40Y.HTM

Unitatis Redintegratio: A New Interpretation After 40 Years
Cardinal Walter KasperPresident of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity

“….The Decree on Ecumenism did not appear out of thin air. It fits into the context of the ecumenical movement that came into being in the 20th century outside the Catholic Church (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 4), and marked a decisive turning point with the creation of the “World Council of Churches” in 1948.
**This movement was long regarded with suspicion **by the Catholic Church. But its acceptance by the Second Vatican Council is rooted in the Catholic theology of the 19th century….On the other hand, the separate Communities have sometimes developed **certain aspects of the revealed truth better, **so that in the situation of division, the Catholic Church cannot fully and concretely develop her own catholicit.y **The Church therefore needs purification **and renewal and must ceaselessly take the way of penance …This self-critical and penitential vision is the basis of the progress of the ecumenical movement (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 5-12). It includes conversion and renewal, without which there can be no ecumenism or dialogue, because ecumenism, rather than an exchange of ideas, is an exchange of gifts… the goal of ecumenism cannot be conceived of **as a mere return of the others to the heart of the Catholic Church. The goal of full unity [can] be reached only through the action of the Spirit of God and the conversion of all to **the one Head of the Church, Jesus Christ. To the extent that we are united to Christ, we will all be united to one another as well, and will actuate in all its fullness the catholicity proper to the Church. This goal has been defined theologically by the Council as unity-communio.”

These are incredible statements. Protestants have developed certain aspects of the revealed truth better???
The Divinely revealed religion of Christ, The Mystical Body. needs purification???
Ecumenism** cannot be conceived as a mere return**???
Conversion to Jesus Christ** but not to the Church he founded **,and to this day guides, is the goal of ecumenism???

Here, Here!
Excellent Post!

 

[St_Isidore]

Allah is the name used by the Muslims for the one and only God. They do not have an understanding of the Trinity but it doesn’t change the fact that there is only one God and all people are praying to Him whether they understand that or not, except satanists or someone specifically intending to invoke evil.

Since you have shown that you cannot say that you believe Allah is the Trinity, It is obvious you believe it as such.

FYI, Allah is not the Holy Trinity.
Islam denies the divinity of Christ and the Trinity.
Note to the wise, most in Islam are fully aware of Jesus.
I think StMaria has already posted the quotes from the Qur’an earlier on this thread.

BTW, you won’t find many siding with you on this huge err of yours, Traditional Catholics, other Catholics, denominations, and definitely not the Muslims. Where does that leave you?

Don’t put words in my mouth.

Would not dream of it, you have done a great job on your own.

Clever though to just change the topic to avoid admitting that Jesus never once called somebody out to convert religions.

Salvation outside the Universal Church???