Pope leads "New Liturgical Movement" by example

[grandfather]

As i quoted.

My problem is with the insinuations often made that the OF or the us adaptations are less reverent than other forms.

Lux

What is more or less reverent can be a matter of opinion, or a matter of fact, or some of both.

People do have preferences. They like one style of a thing over another. Perhaps if what people are looking for is reverence their preferences will be distiguished by what they perceive to be more reverent over what they perceive to be less reverent.

So if reverence is a criteria to determine preference and body posture in worship is a topic of interest people will judge for themselves which they think is more or less reverent.

By appearance, by external appearance which of the two scenes seems most reverent? A. Worshippers kneeling at a Communion rail and receiving on the tongue from a vested priest, or B. a line of communicants coming up the aisle and putting out their hand and popping the Eucharist into their mouths, turning away and walking back to their pew?

If people prefer the tradtional form, because they perceive it to be more reverent, why do you care? It is not an insinuation. They are plainly saying they prefer the style or form they see as more reverent of the Eucharist. That is their opinion. You don’t like it. Should they not have their opinion or preference?

If the pope does not like the current practice, which is an indult, and if he decides to remove the indult, maybe because he thinks it is less reverent, why do you care? Didn’t you make the case for uniformity of posture and the need for following instructions to keep it? If the pope decides there should be uniformity of posture and mandates it, does that not mean any priest who insists on doing it his way is a renegade?

The canard on what to do with no kneelers is a smokescreen.

One thing ascertained by all the debate is that there is confusion. It needs to be settled and eventually it will be.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi again,

If people prefer the tradtional form, because they perceive it to be more reverent, why do you care? It is not an insinuation.

Bcause it is an insinuation that the beautiful communion procession with a bow before the Lord (not the minister) is somehow not reverent.

Lux

 

[grandfather]

Hi again,

Bcause it is an insinuation that the beautiful communion procession with a bow before the Lord (not the minister) is somehow not reverent.

Lux

When a new bishop went to Sacramento he issued an instruction that before receiving the Eucharist people were to make some sign of reverence, like a bow, or sign of the cross. That created a storm of dissent.

There is nothing in the norms that I know of that says people should bow before receiving. I have watched people process to the ministers and extraordinaruy ministers and bow. It looks like they are bowing to the person’s butt who is in front of them.

So to be clear, without insinuation, as staright forward as possible, in my opinion the current method of people strolling up to the front of the church, or to a “communion station”, sticking out their hands and receiving the Lord like a potato chip is not reverent. That is what I plainly think without insinuation.

A survey several years ago said over 60% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. My bishop was shocked and could not understand why.

 

[japhy]

There is nothing in the norms that I know of that says people should bow before receiving.

“When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.” (GIRM 160, US adaptation)

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi again,

So to be clear, without insinuation, as staright forward as possible, in my opinion the current method of people strolling up to the front of the church, or to a “communion station”, sticking out their hands and receiving the Lord like a potato chip is not reverent. That is what I plainly think without insinuation.

Sad that this is how you see people. How about people kneeling at a rail craning their neck to see where the priest is?

Yes everyone has a personal concept of reverence. It is very irreverent of you to speak of the OF in this manner, and judgemental to accuse the communicants as you have.

Lux

 

[grandfather]

Hi again,

Sad that this is how you see people. How about people kneeling at a rail craning their neck to see where the priest is?

Yes everyone has a personal concept of reverence. It is very irreverent of you to speak of the OF in this manner, and judgemental to accuse the communicants as you have.

Lux

Lux,

I haven’t accused anyone of anything that I know of.

I have a friend who has been singing in the choir for a number of years. His name is Jack. I have worked with him every day for years and we are good friends. Jack is not a traditional Catholic, or classified as a conservative religiously or politically. I doubt that he has been to confession for years. He is not particularly religious or devout. The choir is more of a social pastime, something to do with his wife and other married couples. I asked him once, from his vantage point about what he sees. I said Jack, you are standing in a place to observe the entire parish as the people come to receive Holy Communion. This is the highest moment of worship. You can see their demeanors, their facial countenances and body language and you watch this procession every Sunday. Does it look to you, just based on your observation like the people at the moment they receive are worshipping God? He thought for a bit and answered, “They are not worshipping anything”.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

And how would a person you describe be an expert on worship?

Your words show you to be disrespectful and judgemental of a legitimate form of worship, and those who worship in that manner.

I am just trying to show some here that it is very hypocritical to show such disrespect for one legitimate form of worship and claim to show more reverence.

Worship however you choose, but don’t disrespect those who do not share your views.

Lux

 

[grandfather]

And how would a person you describe be an expert on worship?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I am sorry, but I fail to see any connection between hypocricy and preference of the old forms over the new, or vice versa. Hypocricy is professing one thing and doing another. It does not offend me if someone prefers one thing over another in liturgy and expresses their opinion. That does not make them hypocritical. If I like Gregorian Chant and someone else likes bongo drums and hates chant that is their schtick.

You are not understanding me. It is very irrreverent to speak of the OF as some here do. To claim reverence in a preferred form of worship, yet be so irreverent toward another valid form is very hypocritical.

[SIGN]We must have a different understanding of what respect is.[/SIGN]
That is an understatement!!!

Lux

 

[grandfather]

You are not understanding me. It is very irrreverent to speak of the OF as some here do. To claim reverence in a preferred form of worship, yet be so irreverent toward another valid form is very hypocritical.

[SIGN]We must have a different understanding of what respect is.[/SIGN]
That is an understatement!!!

Lux

Please define hypocricy.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

in this instance—claiming to be reverent while acting irreverently

 

[grandfather]

1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

in this instance—claiming to be reverent while acting irreverently

Am I feigning, making believe to be something I am not or do not really believe and hold?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I can’t explain it any more thoroughly—I guess we must agree to disagree, but I do hope you and others who show such irreverence to the OF can appreciate that it is irreverence and very offensive to God as well as those who worship in that manner.

“he who hears you hears Me”

Lux

 

[grandfather]

I can’t explain it any more thoroughly—I guess we must agree to disagree, but I do hope you and others who show such irreverence to the OF can appreciate that it is irreverence and very offensive to God as well as those who worship in that manner.

“he who hears you hears Me”

Lux

When I go to a novus Ordo Mass I try to be as reverent and prayerful as possible and respectful of the Mass. So is it irreverent and offensive to God to say I don’t like it, or that I prefer an Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy?

 

[I_Believe]

Hi japhy, I was just over on NLM and saw the entry on the article. I was going to mention it here on CAF, but see you already have

I pray daily that the faithful would start following everything that is happening with our Holy Father. Many of us do of course, but far too catholics are really out of touch with what BXVI is doing.

It saddens me greatly when I visit the “big two” traditionalist forums, and see the knee jerk posts questioning H.H.'s efforts. It’s crazy. The man is not taking sides, he is just doing what a Pope of strong faith does. He’s humble, and he’s prudent.

Anyhow, instead of rambling on, I’ll just say thanks for starting this thread.

And, btw everyone, there is a new blog up and running that promotes prayer for BXVI. propapa-0.blogspot.com/

I’m going to have to start a blog and join them