Pope Leo the Great on the Immaculate Conception

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I did read your “little ditty”, which was, in fact, a lengthy, painfully-distortive interpretation of St. Leo’s writings. Overall, I don’t think you’re seeing what’s there in his writings. I think you’re instead seeing what you want and expect to see there, through the lens of Marian devotion, and I think this is obvious enough that I’ll just step back and let the readers to determine for themselves whether you or I are more correct in our interpretations of St. Leo’s opinions.
Honestly, if you ask me, when you get into these situations where two people interpret something differently, one has to ask if there isn’t an explicit answer in the words themselves - that what is written may be understood in one way or in another way. I don’t know that Pope Leo gives a sufficient explicit answer that would solve the quandry. No one can say he agreed with the Immaculate Conception just as no one can say he didn’t.

I can see a basis for an interpretation that understands his references to purity as meaning the state of her soul and I can see how someone may think that means her virginal integrity. But how can you know what the Pope meant for sure? It’s just not clear enough.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
Hello Partyka - Well, thank you for reading it and giving your opinion. Can you refresh my memory about “the final quesiton” you need an answer to.

Peace,

Gail

P.S. Sorry you found my little ditty “painful.” I could’ve gone on longer but my tummy needed tankin’ up!
 
How does the thought of the Virgin Mary’s being conceived in sin just like the rest of us make you feel? What about the idea of her having ever committed an actual sin? What is your “gut reaction” to contemplating such notions?
 
O dear Partyka! But I couldn’t “contemplate” such nonsense. Why would I waste my time even thinking about our Lady in such a way?

Peace,

Gail
 
Because I just asked you to? I’m just looking for your “gut reaction” to the thought.
 
Well Partyka…

if you really want my “gut” reaction to such stuff, here it is…blasphemy. Why on earth would I want to blaspheme the Mother of God? If that is a contemplative exercise for you, you’re in serious trouble in your spiritual life!

Peace,

Gail
 
if you really want my “gut” reaction to such stuff, here it is…blasphemy. Why on earth would I want to blaspheme the Mother of God? If that is a contemplative exercise for you, you’re in serious trouble in your spiritual life!
This is not an uncommon reaction among Catholics, at least from what I’ve seen on forums here and there. Even the slightest suggestion that the Virgin Mary may have sinned or been tainted with original sin generates a visceral reaction and a stampede to Mary’s defense.

I recall one poster on another forum who started a “The Virgin Mary was a sinner” topic, and after each round of vehement objections from Catholics ran its course, all the original poster had to do to get the ball rolling again was reply with one word – “sinner” – and yet another wave of visceral objections would begin.

Where does this visceral reaction come from? It’s well-known that Scripture alone carries no conclusive or explicit support for the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, so Catholics didn’t get it from merely reading their Bibles. The early Fathers gave no conclusive or (with a couple of exceptions) explicit support for the dogma. Where, then, does it come from?

My personal belief is that Marian devotion itself, which has grown pretty much unchecked over the centuries, is what has generated both the dogma itself and the visceral defense of it that many Catholics spontaneously offer whenever it is challenged – i.e., that the emotional fervor of the Virgin Mary’s devotees pushed not only the Marian dogmas of the Immaculate Conception but also the dogma of Mary’s Assumption to the level of being required for all Catholics to believe. I believe that same fervor is behind the ongoing drive to make the additional names she has been given of late (e.g., “Mediatrix of All Graces”, “Co-Redemptrix”) into matters of required belief.

However, my knowledge of the actual circumstances and events surrouding the “ex cathedra” defining of either dogma is woefully poor, so I could be WAY off. If anyone knows of some good resources on the Pope’s definition of the Immaculate Conception and/or the Assumption of Mary (and/or the state of any further movements to promote Marian devotion), I’d be much obliged.
 
Dear Partyka - you state: If anyone knows of some good resources on the Pope’s definition of the Immaculate Conception and/or the Assumption of Mary (and/or the state of any further movements to promote Marian devotion), I’d be much obliged."

Well, I’d like to shorten your request to read this way: “If anyone knows of some good resources…I’d be much obliged.” You have all three of the required resources to gaining the knowlege you seek – two knees to bend and a heart to ask from! I suggest you use all three! You might be surprised with the answer if you dare to ask for the Truth!

Peace,

Gail
 
From the Catholic EncyclopediaBased on this, your phrase “recently-created dogma” is an oxymoron. As revealed truth the IC has existed since its revelation by Jesus Christ to the apostles.
You’re assuming it was revealed.
Pope Leo’s silence on the matter does not make any teaching “recent”.
A dogma? The “silence,” along with the condemnation of the novelty when it did appear. We can easily trace the appearance and progress of this novelty over the last thousand years (actually less, it didn’t appear until the 11th century).

Bernard of Clairveaux so wrote:
  1. Whence, then, was the holiness of that conception? Shall it be said that Mary was so prevented by grace that, being holy before being conceived, she was therefore conceived without sin; or that, being holy before being born, she has therefore communicated holiness to her birth? But in order to be holy it is necessary to exist, and a person does not exist before being conceived. Or perhaps, when her parents were united, holiness was mingled with the conception itself, so that she was at once conceived and sanctified. But this is not tenable in reason. For how can there be sanctity without the sanctifying Spirit, or the co-operation of the Holy Spirit with sin? Or how could there not be sin where concupiscence was not wanting? Unless, perhaps, some one will say that she was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not by man, which would be a thing hitherto unheard of. I say, then, that the Holy Spirit came upon her, not within her, as the Angel declared: The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee (S. Luke i. 35). And if it is permitted to say what the Church thinks, and the Church thinks that which is true, I say that she conceived by the Holy Spirit, but not that she was conceived by Him; that she was at once Mother and Virgin, but not that she was born of a virgin. Otherwise, where will be the prerogative of the Mother of the Lord, to have united in her person the glory of maternity and that of virginity, if you give the same glory to her mother also? This is not to honour the Virgin, but to detract from her honour. If, therefore, before her conception she could not possibly be sanctified, since she did not exist, nor in the conception itself, because of the sin which inhered in it, it remains to be believed that she received sanctification when existing in the womb after conception, which, by excluding sin, made her birth holy, but not her conception.
  2. Wherefore, although it has been given to some, though few, of the sons of men to be born with the gift of sanctity, yet to none has it been given to be conceived with it. So that to One alone should be reserved this privilege, to Him who should make all holy, and coming into the world, He alone, without sin should make an atonement for sinners. The Lord Jesus, then, alone was conceived by the Holy Ghost, because He alone was holy before He was conceived. He being excepted, all the children of Adam are in the same case as he who confessed of himself with great humility and truth, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin hath my mother conceived me (Ps. li. 6).
  3. And as this is so, what ground can there be for a Festival of the Conception of the Virgin? On what principle, I say, is either a conception asserted to be holy which is not by the Holy Ghost, not to say that it is by sin, or a festival be established which is in no wise holy? Willingly the glorious Virgin will be without this honour, by which either a sin seems to be honoured or a sanctity supposed which is not a fact. And, besides, she will by no means be pleased by a presumptuous novelty against the custom of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of rashness, the sister of superstition, the daughter of levity. For if such a festival seemed advisable, the authority of the Apostolic See ought first to have been consulted, and he simplicity of inexperienced persons ought not to have been followed so thoughtlessly and precipitately. And, indeed, I had before noted that error in some persons; but I appeared not to take notice of it, dealing gently with a devotion which sprang from simplicity of heart and love of the Virgin. But now that the superstition has taken hold upon wise men, and upon a famous and noble Church, of which I am specially the son, I know not whether I could longer pass it over without gravely offending you all. But what I have said is in submission to the judgment of whosoever is wiser than myself; and especially I refer the whole of it, as of all matters of a similar kind, to the authority and decision of the See of Rome, and I am prepared to modify my opinion if in anything I think otherwise than that See.
    ccel.org/ccel/bernard/letters.lxviii.html
Bernard is also an opponent of the absolute papal power in the Church. As certainly as he recognizes the papal authority as the highest in the Church, so decidedly does he reprove the effort to make it the only one. Even the middle and lower ranks of the Church have their right before God. To withdraw the bishops from the authority of the archbishops, the abbots from the authority of the bishops, that all may become dependent on the curia, means to make the Church a monster (De consideratione., iii, 8).

Btw, he’s no friend of ours:
I, for one, shall speak about those obstinate Greeks *, who are with us and against us, united in faith and divided in peace, though in truth their faith may stray from the straight path.
De Consideratione, iii, 1. (btw, he refers to Ephraim as “diligent doctor,” so he likes him).

Do you mean the faulty translation thereof (the Masoret says “they”: does that indicate that infinite regression that you quote from St. Gregory?

potuit, sed non decuit ergo non fecit*
 
Well before I get into any discussion, I think, “What is my purpose here, what am I trying to prove?”

So i ask that of you… in very plesant and converstational tones, what point are you trying to make? Are you trying to say that because you dont find enough evidence in Pope Leo’s discussions, that the Sinless nature of the Holy Mother is called into question?

If so, I would suggest re-reading this quote.

So From the Fruit of the Promised Branch, sprang One without Fault.

So who is the Branch? Well its not Joseph, as he had no part. Its not the Lord who is not of Mortal decent.
So to save the IC you’ll deny the Incarnation.

Absolutely incredible.
So that leaves Mary. Mary is part of that line of David that Leo is discussing. He also says," Who can make a clean thing concieve of an unclean seed." Here again he is not just talking about Christ taking flesh, but also of the vessel that it comes from.
Where is he saying that? 🤓

I suggest you re-read the quote.
I think this quote actually gives credibility to the sinless nature of Mary.
If you read it into the passage.
 
EXCUUUUUSE ME! Mpartyka states: "So far as Pope Leo is concerned, the Blessed Virgin is among those of whom it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.”

Isn’t it awesome when someone can call a Pope a heretic? without using the “H” word! I think you need to go back to the party mon!
You mean, like the Sixth Ecumenical Council?
 
Dear Partyka - you need to look at your 3rd clip from St. Leo. In it you state:"Third: “Truly foreign to this nativity is that which we read of all others, ‘no one is clean from stain, not even the infant who has lived but one day upon earth.’ Nothing therefore of the lust of the flesh has passed into that peerless nativity, nothing of the law of sin has entered. A royal Virgin of the stem of David is chosen, to be impregnated with the sacred seed and to conceive the Divinely-human offspring in mind first and then in body.”

I’ll go slow…

“Truely foreign to this nativity” – that being the one in which Mary and Jesus are.

“is that which we read of all others” – this means ever other nativity, that is every other childbirth experience of history, not the one the Holy Father is speaking of, that of Jesus and Mary.

“no one is clean from stain” – again meaning all other nativities besides that of Jesus and Mary.

“not even the infant who has lived but one day upon earth.” – meaning the stain of original sin.

“Nothing therefore of the lust of the flesh” – meaning no one bit of sin as in nothing, null, not any, no possible way, original or personal.

“has passed” – preserved from, God prevented, gotten into, completely excluded from.

“into that peerless nativity” – PEERLESS meaning no other PEER, no equal, a singular event in the history of all of mankind, never before nor ever after!

“nothing of the law of sin has entered” – that’s absolute without any doubt clear as a bell there was absolutely no sin, original or personal that entered into the nativity of Jesus and Mary! And that means her’s and His!

“A royal Virgin” – meaning of the King, not just an earthly king, but the actual in the flesh King of Heaven bestowing on her the grace of Queenship!

“of the stem of David” – the royal house of David so as to fulfill the prophecies of old and giving her the queenship of Isreal as in Queen Mother, not queen by marriage.

“is chosen” – what does it mean to be CHOSEN by God Who has all of humanity in His mind, Who holds all things in His hand? THAT means HE picked her! She is SPECIAL to HIM and it also means she is set apart by God from the rest of the human race!

“to be impregnanted with the sacred seed” – the HOLY SPIRIT, that is God Himself wiil take His abode in her flesh that has been singled out from all of the rest of the human race and she will be fully pregnant for the complete course of human time, the nine months it takes for gestation.

(And here’s a punchline I simply love for she IS Wisdom! but that’s my sentiment)

“and to conceive the Divinely-human offspring in mind first and then in body.” – Mary thought on these things before they came into being! Her mind knew the mind of God before her flesh was yielded up to its Divine course! But I think the understanding of that is a little beyond you at this point Partyka.

I really don’t understand how some folks can read this stuff and see things that aren’t there. Perhaps you like trying to place things in the citations that aren’t there. This is not nice! Especially when it comes to a Pope and a Saint! Naughty naughty Partyka! You bad boy!

Peace,

Gail
The nativity that Jesus and His Mother share (HINT HINT) is Jesus’ Nativity, where He is the child and she the mother. It has NOTHING to do with her birth (or conception).

Yet another confusion of the Virgin birth with the IC, which most of those who supposedly believe the IC do.
 
Let’s try again. Examine your quote number 4 up there.
“…without male seed Christ was conceived of a Virgin, who was fecundated not by human intercourse but by the Holy Spirit. And whereas in all mothers conception does not take place without stain of sin, this one received purification from the Source of her conception. For no taint of sin penetrated, where no intercourse occurred. Her unsullied virginity knew no lust when it ministered the substance. The Lord took from His mother our nature, not our fault.”
It clearly says “…this one received purification from the Source of her conception.”
Yes, it clearly says.

It clearly says her “conception,” like “conceived of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary.” The conception is the one when she is providing the egg, NOT when she is a fertilized egg.

Are you trying to claim Anna did not have intercourse, “where no intercourse occured”?
 
From the ultimate article on the IC online🙂

Ephraem of Syria (c. 306 - 373 AD)

The witness of St. Ephraem is more striking still. Despite the chaotic condition of the so-called Ephraemite literature, the essence of Ephraem’s authentic thought on Mary’s sanctity may be recaptured in a single idea: Our Lady is singularly sinless. First, he insists that the Cherubim are not her equal in holiness, the Seraphim must yield to her in loveliness, the legions of angels are inferior in purity (Hymni de beata Maria, 13, n. 5-6; ibid 14, n. 1).

Second, he links Mary and Eve in their “innocence and simplicity,” despite the fact that one was principle of salvation, the other of death (Sermones exegetici; Opera omnia syriace at latine, Vol 2:327).

Third, in what is perhaps his most suggestive Mariological insight, Ephraem addresses Our Lord as follows:

“In very truth, you and your Mother are alone perfectly beautiful in every respect; for in you, Lord, there is no stain at all, and in your Mother there is no spot. Among my children there is no one like these two beautiful ones.” (Ephraem, Carmina Nisibena, 27)

A second translation of above: “Only you [Jesus] and your Mother are more beautiful than everything. For on you, O Lord, there is no mark; neither is there any stain in your Mother.” (ibid; Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church, page 109)

A third translation of above: “You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others; For there is no blemish in you, nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (ibid; William Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers, vol 1, page 313)

Some argue this way: Ephraem likens the spotlessness of Mary to the stainlessness of Jesus (first translation). In this respect they are unique in humankind; the privilege is exclusively theirs. Moreover, in the context the beauty in question is a spiritual thing; for with this loveliness the Church of Nisbis contrasts its own unsightliness. This spiritual beauty is not limited to virginity; for in the loveliness which is virginity many human beings share. The stain, therefore, is sin, and stainlessness is sinlessness; and so the text excludes from the Mother of God and from her Son all taint of sin, whatever it be – consequently, even original sin.

It might be objected that Ephraem needs a clear, acceptable concept of original sin before the passage can be cited in favor of the Immaculate Conception. But such a negative and absolute proposition like Ephraem’s excludes everything that is genuinely sin, whatever be the author’s inability to understand sin comprehensively. However, it can be argued that Ephraem did realize that our inheritance from Adam is properly sin:

“Adam sinned and earned all sorrows, and the world, following his lead, all guilt. And it took no thought of how it might be restored, but only of how its fall might be made more pleasant for it. Glory to Him that came and restored it!” (Ephraem, Hymns of the Epiphany 10:1; William Jurgens, Faith of the Early Fathers).

Other passsages from Ephraem on Mary’s holiness, and the Eve-Mary analogy:

“The eye becomes pure when it is united with the light of the sun, and receives strength from its vigor and clarity from its splendor; it becomes radiant with its ardor and adorned with its beauty…In Mary, as in an eye, the Light has made a dwelling and purified her spirit, refined her thoughts, sanctified her mind, and transfigured her virginity.” (Ephraem, Hymns on the Church 36:1-2; Gambero, page 110)

“Blessed are you also, Mary, whose name is great and exalted because of your Child. Indeed you were able to say how much and how and where the Great One, Who became small, dwelt in you.” (Ephraem, Hymns on the Nativity 25:14; Gambero, page 111)

“Because the serpent had struck Eve with his claw, the foot of Mary bruised him.” (Ephraem, Diatessaron 10:13; cf. ibid 2:2; also Hymns on the Church 37:5-7; Gambero, page 116-7)

This indicates that before Ephesus, Eastern Christianity was not unaware of Our Lady’s holiness, recognized it at times as an uncommon thing, and may have even caught a fleeting glimpse of a conception that rivaled Christ’s in its sheer sinlessness.

And on the Eve-Mary analogy – “Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were identical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, the other the cause of our life” (Ephraem, Op syr II, 327).

Phil P
 
You’re assuming it was revealed.
I am not assuming anything. I have accepted the teaching from a divine source, the body of Christ, the Church.
A dogma? The “silence,” along with the condemnation of the novelty when it did appear. We can easily trace the appearance and progress of this novelty over the last thousand years (actually less, it didn’t appear until the 11th century).

Bernard of Clairveaux so wrote:
Any lack of clarity of the truth was put to rest by the proclamation of the dogma.
 
I am not assuming anything. I have accepted the teaching from a divine source, the body of Christ, the Church.

Any lack of clarity of the truth was put to rest by the proclamation of the dogma.
There was no lack of clarity. Bernard was quite explicite about what the IC meant, that it was a novelty, and that he condemned it.
 
Dear Isa – You seem to think that Bernard wasn’t as wise is he was. In the portion of his writing you point to that YOU claim discredits the Immaculate Conception of Mary, contains this concluding statement: “But what I have said is in submission to the judgment of whosoever is wiser than myself; and especially I refer the whole of it, as of all matters of a similar kind, to the authority and decision of the See of Rome, and I am prepared to modify my opinion if in anything I think otherwise than that See.” (emphasis mine) This simply states that he has given his own speculations on the matter, and defers to Rome for the ultimate conclusion and determination of Mary’s state of soul at her conception.

To lay claim to his words in support of “proofs” that the Church didn’t teach or hold the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception prior to the Constitution of 1854 is to do Bernard a disservice at best.

As a Catholic laywoman, it is my understanding that prior to 1854, persons were freer to speculate upon this matter. But after 1854, folks were asked to quit the speculations and stick to the truth about Mary. We were asked to BELIEVE in the Immaculate Conception of Mary whether or not we fully understood its theology. The Church being a wise Mother, put an end to speculations of a public or private nature that could throw doubt upon the orthodoxy of belief of some of her members, or worse cause a fault in another’s belief. Is this your end in mis-using St Bernard’s writings?

Peace,

Gail
 
I’ve been told that the pope speaks infallibly ex cathedra on faith and morals. Not history. Have I been told wrong?
Dear Isa – You seem to think that Bernard wasn’t as wise is he was.
Given his stated views on the Orthodox Faith, I know the limits of his “wisdom.”
In the portion of his writing you point to that YOU claim discredits the Immaculate Conception of Mary,
The writing discredits the revisionism that the Church always taught it. It obviously didn’t.
If you want to appeal to the deus ex machina of ex cathedra as the proof of the IC, that’s one thing. But you can’t appeal to the verdict of history.
contains this concluding statement: “But what I have said is in submission to the judgment of whosoever is wiser than myself; and especially I refer the whole of it, as of all matters of a similar kind, to the authority and decision of the See of Rome, and I am prepared to modify my opinion if in anything I think otherwise than that See.” (emphasis mine) This simply states that he has given his own speculations on the matter, and defers to Rome for the ultimate conclusion and determination of Mary’s state of soul at her conception.
Like Bernard single handed promotion of the Vation conclusion on calling the Second Crusade.
Bernard, alas, died seven centuries before the Vatican got around to issuing the IC.
To lay claim to his words in support of “proofs” that the Church didn’t teach or hold the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception prior to the Constitution of 1854 is to do Bernard a disservice at best.
I’m just keeping him to his word, which history apply documents elsewhere.
As a Catholic laywoman, it is my understanding that prior to 1854, persons were freer to speculate upon this matter. But after 1854, folks were asked to quit the speculations and stick to the truth about Mary. We were asked to BELIEVE in the Immaculate Conception of Mary whether or not we fully understood its theology.
Doesn’t change the history of the doctrine. Does it even claim to?
The Church being a wise Mother, put an end to speculations of a public or private nature that could throw doubt upon the orthodoxy of belief of some of her members, or worse cause a fault in another’s belief. Is this your end in mis-using St Bernard’s writings?
The end of his writing was to argue against the doctrine. I have used it for this purpose.
 
Isa states: “The end of his writing was to argue against the doctrine. I have used it for this purpose.” So, I can conclude you refute the Immaculate Conception of Mary? And also desire to “enlighten” others to the “fallacy” of belief in the same?

Peace,

Gail
 
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