Pope might loosen up saints' miracle clause!

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Original article.

Courtesy: The Washington Times/UPI

Pope loosens up saints’ miracle clause

Rome, Vatican City, Dec. 20 (UPI) – Pope John Paul II is reportedly considering dropping the need for sainthood candidates to have performed posthumous miracles, The Times of London reports.

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Archbishop of Genoa, disclosed Sunday Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the head of the ongregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the pope’s ideological “enforcer” for two decades, had presented a formula for the abolition of the centuries-old “miracle clause” to the pope.

The 84-year-old pontiff has created 482 saints in his 26 years as the church’s leader, more than all his predecessors put together. He also has beatified 1,337 people, those who have performed one miracle after death.

Abolishing the need for miracles would speed up the canonization of some of the Pope’s favorite candidates, including Mother Teresa of Calcutta, who was
beatified last year.

Original article.
 
JMJ + OBT​

Now, I consider myself a big fan of John Paul II, and I think loyalty to the teaching authority and the actual teaching of the Pope is extremely important.

But what would the Pope be teaching us with this change in centuries-old “policy.”

I don’t know about you, but this gave me heartburn and a sinking feeling in my stomach, and that’s not usually the feeling I have when reading news about the actions or considerations of our beloved JP2.

Maybe the article is in error? Any comments?

Merry almost Christmas!

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA
 
As I understand it, canonization is really the public acknowlegement by the church of that individual’s personal holiness, the requirements for miracles have often made me wonder, since people like Mother Teresa, Maximillian Kolbe, others led very holy lives…and martyrs do not have to meet this requirement…
 
Nothing surprises anymore about Pope John Paul II. I think he will go down in history as one of the worst Popes ever. However, I reserve my final judgement until the end.
 
I like this Pope but I dont like this…

The least of us, THE LEAST CHRISTIAN can obtain miracles.

I mean we cant do it on command but we can do it, alot.
 
Consider the source. I really doubt that this would be a suggestion from Cardinal Ratzinger.
 
I will draw the line at this…I will not accept the Popes decision on this matter…this is FINE the way it has been…with this system in place he has managed to raise to SaintHood MANY… so why mess with the system…just further leaves the door open to question why xyz tradition can be changed but not abc tradition in regards to Church tradition. Hope this doesnt fall under Dogma…cause I ant acknowledging ANYONE who wasnt Sainted due to miracles…they will be held up by me as Blesseds and venerables not any further…our Church is ABOUT Miracles…Saints are about people who were so close to God they could perform heroic virtue and work miracles while they were alive and those who didnt were made Saints when miracles in their names occured after death… now if the Church wishes to lower the number of required miracles I can go for that…as long as the miracle is instantaneous and can leave no doubt…or…if the Pope wishes to do away with POSTHUMOUS miracles then as far as I am concerned, there had better be WELL DOCUMENTED miracles while they lived…but if the Pope gets rid of the need for miracles…geez…I cant articulate how he would make me feel toward him if he did that. 😦 Whats next…in the spirit of ecumenicalism he’s gonna tell protestants that a portion of Jesus is actually physically present when they have communion? :confused:

I love the Church…but more and more its boiling down to ONLY cause Jesus is in the Eucharist… when I should feel great about EVERYTHING…but I am tired of them NOT addressing properly the things that ARE broken and wanting to fiddle with the things that ARENT. :mad:
 
I’d like to point out, before folks get too much into ranting about the horror involved in breaking with tradition and practice that they perceive as stretching back to time immemorial, that “time immemorial”, in this instance, traces back to slightly less than 500 years ago. It was not until 1634 that Pope Urban VII reserved to Rome the final authority in the processes of beatification and canonization.

The timeframe since which miracles have been an absolute requisite for canonization of others than martyrs dates to no earlier than that, although the existence of miracles certainly never hurt anyone’s cause for such status.

Many years,

Neil
 
**The LEAST of you is greater than Saint JOHN THE BAPTIST.

Luke 7:28
**
 
I saw this on a website, think it explains why the Pope is loosening the miracle clause. Dont get mad at me for this, but it is amusing and makes me scratch my head why he has cannonized so many and is now throwing away more rules

Before Pope JPII:

Since 1588 (thru 1978), 299 new saints:

So in 390 years, 299 saints = .77 new saints per year on average

Since 1978 when John Paul II became pope, 470 new saints:So in 25 years, 470 saints = 18.8 new saints per year on averageSo if you compare JPII to all the former popes, and determine his ratio of new saints to all former history:In the same span of time, for every 1 saint previously, JPII has done 24.4 (ie 1:24.4 ration, which means his rate is 24.4 times faster)

Comparison to the Medal of Honor (which is pointedly for a ‘single’ event, while saint hood is supposed to represent much more, an entire lifetime) :First awarded in 1863, 3440 inviduals have received this medal.So, in 140 years, 3440 medals = 25.5 medals awarded a year.Now, to put this in perspective, for the last 25 years (JPII’s term so far) if the US had awarded 24.4 times as many medals of honor, there would have been 15, 555 individuals receiving the medal in the last 25 years. That’s an entire division of people.Comparison to Nobel Peace Prize:Since 1901 it has been awarded 101 times (ie 1 time a year)If it had been awarded 24.4 times more often in the last 25 years (JPII’s term) then it would have been awarded 610 times in those last 25 years. That’s six centuries worth of prizes, in just 25 years.I haven’t noticed an increase in US military heroism in the last 25 years that would justify awarding an entire division the CMOH. I haven’t noticed a sudden outbreak of potential nobel laureates that would justify 610 prizes in the last 25 years either. Likewise, I haven’t seen any great holy works, miracles, or any other aspect of the catholic church that could justify 470 cannonizations. In fact, it seems to me that the catholic church in this period has suffered a moral and ethical breakdown, which is exemplified by the pope himself tossing around sainthood as if it were candy.Instead of playing to crowds and glorifying ordinary men and women, the Pope should be paying attention to the problems so often in the press for years now. It is as if the Pope thinks for every wrong committed by a priest, he can undo it with one cannonization. For all it’s problems, you’d think the catholic church would know better than to use something like cannonization as a propanda tool.This is the definition of a saint according to the catholic church:The process by which holy men and women are officially recognized for their heroic activity. To get into that category a person’s life is thoroughly investigated by Church authorities after death and many miracles are expected through the intercession or influence of that person’s prayers. The Mass book and Church calendar designate them by categories: apostles, martyrs, pastors, virgins and founders of religious orders.So it’s not 470 miracles we are looking at in these 25 years, but thousands. JPII thinks there have been thousands of miracles apparently. To me, ‘many’ means at least 5, so we are looking at roughly 2350 miracles at a minimum. Lets see, there are 8000 days in 25 years, so that’s better than one miracle every 4 days which has been verified.

This is the definition of a miracle:An event beyond the power of any creature. It cannot be produced by any human power physical, emotional or mental. It happens in a religious setting and can be recognized as intended by God to be a sign. When someone claims a miracle, it must be proven that there is no natural explanation.The catholic church has documention on the investigations of those ‘thousands’ of miracles in the last 25 years ? Somehow, I doubt that. Tip for the vatican, it’s not a miracle when a bishop says he thinks it will rain tomorrow despite the forecast, and it actually does. I believe that this increase in cannonization is a direct result of having entered the information age. The pope is using cannonization more because he can manipulate the media for ‘good’ press.
 
Helloooooooooooooooooooooooo?! Are we now accepting the Washington Times as the authority of what Rome is going to do? Hey, at least get it from the Post. Do you reeaaaaaaalllllyyyy think that Cardinal Ratzinger would suggest this? I might buy it if it was Mahoney!
 
Y’know, around about this time of year, people’s thoughts turn to religion and, as a result, here at NovusOrdoAnswers, we tend to be deluged with all sorts of questions about the faith. I thought it might be useful to present a roundup of some of the (name removed by moderator)ut we’ve been getting, as well as the responses we’ve sent to our grateful enquirers.
**puzzled of Pennsylvania wrote:**Our parish priest has started saying the liturgy hanging nude upside down from the rafters of the church. Is this permitted?
This is quite alright as long as it does not detract from the inherent dignity of the 1969 rite. Come to think of it, it could actually add to it.
**curious of Chicago wrote:**When the Holy Father prayed with heretics and idolaters at Assisi, did he mean to suggest that there was salvation outside the church?
Goodness me, no. Whatever gave you that idea?
**curious of Chicago wrote:**Well, if you turn over one of the holiest places in Christendom to people who don’t have the faith and then let them worship their false gods there, it does suggest some kind of legitimacy.
Goodness me, no. Whatever gave you that idea?
**curious of Chicago wrote:**But surely it suggests some kind of equality among religions. Indeed, didn’t some V2 document talk in terms of dialog between equals, where the Catholic church was one of those equals?
Look, this is the third question you’ve had and anyway I’m not sure how you’re managing to read my answers and then reply to them, so I think we had better make way for someone else’s questions.
**nervous of New York wrote:**Why did the pope kiss the Koran?
Do you know, I’ve got a funny feeling you’re actually curious of Chicago pretending to be someone else and asking all these unhelpful questions. Has anyone got a truly constructive question?
**lost of Los Angeles wrote:**Wasn’t the religious freedom taught by Vatican II on the Syllabus of Errors?
Right that’s it. I’ve had enough. I’m closing this thread. You can all get knotted
 
Samboy, are you asking to have your account suspended?

Your (name removed by moderator)ut is welcome, but let’s all keep our comments and questions respectful.
 
Dontyou know that we are all supposed to never question those odd occurrances or else they shut you up by cutting you off …sort of like getting sent to the gulag in Russia. You can blast the Traditionals but never the NO, dont you know that?
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samboy:
Y’know, around about this time of year, people’s thoughts turn to religion and, as a result, here at NovusOrdoAnswers, we tend to be deluged with all sorts of questions about the faith. I thought it might be useful to present a roundup of some of the (name removed by moderator)ut we’ve been getting, as well as the responses we’ve sent to our grateful enquirers.
**puzzled of Pennsylvania wrote:**Our parish priest has started saying the liturgy hanging nude upside down from the rafters of the church. Is this permitted?
This is quite alright as long as it does not detract from the inherent dignity of the 1969 rite. Come to think of it, it could actually add to it.
**curious of Chicago wrote:**When the Holy Father prayed with heretics and idolaters at Assisi, did he mean to suggest that there was salvation outside the church?
Goodness me, no. Whatever gave you that idea?
**curious of Chicago wrote:**Well, if you turn over one of the holiest places in Christendom to people who don’t have the faith and then let them worship their false gods there, it does suggest some kind of legitimacy.
Goodness me, no. Whatever gave you that idea?
**curious of Chicago wrote:**But surely it suggests some kind of equality among religions. Indeed, didn’t some V2 document talk in terms of dialog between equals, where the Catholic church was one of those equals?
Look, this is the third question you’ve had and anyway I’m not sure how you’re managing to read my answers and then reply to them, so I think we had better make way for someone else’s questions.
**nervous of New York wrote:**Why did the pope kiss the Koran?
Do you know, I’ve got a funny feeling you’re actually curious of Chicago pretending to be someone else and asking all these unhelpful questions. Has anyone got a truly constructive question?
**lost of Los Angeles wrote:**Wasn’t the religious freedom taught by Vatican II on the Syllabus of Errors?
Right that’s it. I’ve had enough. I’m closing this thread. You can all get knotted
Click to expand...
 
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bear06:
Helloooooooooooooooooooooooo?! Are we now accepting the Washington Times as the authority of what Rome is going to do? Hey, at least get it from the Post. Do you reeaaaaaaalllllyyyy think that Cardinal Ratzinger would suggest this? I might buy it if it was Mahoney!
Click to expand...
Remember I said Cardinal Ratzenberger might have a hidden agenda. If he is a fundametalist with an agenda he most certainly recomend it but that doesnt mean the Pope will do it. An agenda is exactly that nothing less and nothing more.
 
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OrthoCath:
Nothing surprises anymore about Pope John Paul II. I think he will go down in history as one of the worst Popes ever. However, I reserve my final judgement until the end.
Click to expand...
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but the official concensus is that, not counting Peter, there have been two Popes officially considered to be “Great” and that after his reign, JPII will become #3.
 
I am disturbed already by the great number of people he has cannonized. I think making it easier to cannonize more seems questionable.
 
since when was an american rag the voice of rome, and sam boy you may hate the presence of christ in the valid and holy no mass but please remember it is a valid holy mass with the body and blood and the spirit of our lord our god, if you have had a bad experience of no thats too bad, but do not judge the whole of the catholic world because of a few wayward american parishes
 
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serendipity:
I am disturbed already by the great number of people he has cannonized. I think making it easier to cannonize more seems questionable.
Click to expand...
Pope John Paul II has come under intense criticism for the number of saints that he has canonized during his 25+ year reign.

But nobody seems to examine that list.

You can go to this website and examine the “abuse” for yourself:
vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/index_saints_en.html

Let’s here are some of the crucial canonizations in which you might be interested:

6 May 1984 103 Korean Martyrs

18 October 1987 14 Martyrs in the Philippines

16 May 1988 3 Martyrs in Paraguay

19 June 1988 117 Vietnamese Martyrs

2 July 1994 3 Slovak Martyrs

21 November 1999 10 Martyrs during the Spanish Civil War

1 October 2000 120 Chinese Martyrs

There have been 464 canonizations during the Pontificate of Pope John Paul II. At least 372 (80%) of those have been Martyrs. More of the others probably were Martyrs, but I didn’t take the time to investigate each individual case. I see St. Maximilian Kolbe there, and there is no doubt that he is a Martyr, who also was an extremely holy priest. Also St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (St. Edith Stein) is listed.

I’m no expert, but it is my understanding that martyrdom is prima facie evidence of sainthood, as far as the church is concerned. I suspect that they do look for a modicum of holiness when they actually do canonize people in case some reprobate gets caught in some kind of dragnet.

Religions get lots of blame for causing lots of wars and lots of deaths. I think that if you examine these martyrs on this web page, and read some histories of the 20th century you will discover that pagan and communist governments seem to have caused most of the grief of the 20th century. (Many of the Martyrs canonized recently were from earlier times).

With respect to canonizations of the past, I would suggest that rather than criticize Pope John Paul II, one might investigate why many deserving saints were not recognized by prior Popes.

–

With respect to “loosening” the requirements, before we fire all our ammo, we’d probably best wait until we hear an official pronouncement.
 
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