Pope named in sex abuse lawsuit

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ComradeAndrei:
Oh, and so the Pope, the Supreme Head of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church AND in his own right the sovereign of the Vatican City State should go before a secular U.S. court for a grandstanding, money-grubbing lawsuit? The very idea is appalling. :mad: The Pope is not subject to any temporal authority.
Appalling? The sexual abuses that were covered up by bishops of the Church are appalling! The Pope is not God–he is subject to temporal authority if he breaks the law or contributes to a crime done.

There were far too many bishops who covered up such cases for it to be their individual idea–I always felt they were opperating under a directive from Rome. Perhaps I am right.

The Pope should at least be deposed. Only the Truth will set this church free!
 
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MaryAgnes:
I can’t buy into that … guilt and responsibilty are both direct and indirect. The bishops who were responsible for covering up abuse and relocating sexually abusive clergy should also be tried–in a civil court. When they concealed the crime they became accessories after the fact.
But wouldn’t that be holding them directly responsible when they are indirectly responsible.

Were there no police to report these incidents to? Do nobody’s parents, friends or anyone else know? Only the bishop of the diocese was aware and responsible, or is it only that the pockets are deeper.

And why take money from the coffers of the churches? All the money placed in there was from parishoners. Do we hold all parishoners responsible?

Also concealing the crime is not being an accessory if it was done under a privilege type of communication (like confession).

But this has never been about responsibility. It is about greed, as evidenced by the damages sought. Those victims who set themselves against the church in order to line their pockets lose any sympathy I have for them. They are attacking the body of Christ and I will stand by my Church in this as an ally They have set themselves as the enemy and aligned themselves with the devil. (and attorneys, not that there is a difference).
 
The Vatican and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops have insisted that the secret church procedures in the sex abuse case were not designed to cover up abuse nor to prevent victims from reporting crimes to law enforcement authorities. The document deals with church law - not keeping secrets from secular authorities, they say.
“To insinuate that this letter from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is part of a Vatican conspiracy is a total and complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the letter,” Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza said in a statement. He heads the Galveston-Houston Archdiocese and is also named as a defendant in the suit.
being an Orthodox Christian I have no personal investment in defending the Pope, but I think we ought to get the facts straight before we go around accusing people of covering up sex-crimes. I can understan that it is impostant for the integrity of the Catholic Church that priests and bishops don’t go around gossiping about these things since the moral of the faithful is affected negatively by these things. What benefit is there to allow these abuses to be known by all? Some things must be kept silent for the benefit of the faithful but not for the Church.

I think that there should be a mass clean up of these pedophiles in the Roman Catholic Church, but it’s harder than it seems. The underlying problem I think is bad & ineffective screening of Seminarians and potential priests. They should undergo psychological assessment before they take on a job with such high and varied expectations.
 
My, my. How quick some are to throw the Pope under the bus based on hearsay. But, hey, if it justifies your own rage and hatred against the man, it’s okay, right?

The sin of detraction is pretty serious last time I checked. Some of you might want to pray hard and think before posting anymore of your smarmy insinuations about Christ’s Vicar on earth.
 
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MaryAgnes:
There were far too many bishops who covered up such cases for it to be their individual idea–I always felt they were opperating under a directive from Rome. Perhaps I am right.
Ooooo! Perhaps you are wrong. Slander is an ugly thing.

Please understand how the law works. I can bring a lawsuit against you for the words you have just used against the Vatican. That doesn’t mean I am going to win. It doesn’t even mean that it will see a judge. It just means that someone is smart enough to know that it will cost a Diocese or the Vatican more money to fight it than to win it. They will settle and look guilty. Lawyers are smart, and at this point, it’s a Catch 22 for the Pope.
Some hotshot young lawyer wants to make a name for himself will step over the line and pull the Pope into his suit.
Geez, that doesn’t make the man automatically guilty.
Are you in America? Here, a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty.
 
You forget netmil(name removed by moderator), that only applies till people here “Catholic” and “abuse” in the same sentence :eek:
 
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CatholicCid:
You forget netmil(name removed by moderator), that only applies till people here “Catholic” and “abuse” in the same sentence :eek:
Ya got that right!
“Pile on the Pope” time!

People forget that the same ilk that want to hang the Catholic Church and all in it for sexual abuse are the same who want to hang the Boy Scouts for avoiding the problem by not allowing homosexuals to be troop leaders.

My heart goes out to the abused. But feeding lawyers isn’t going to undo the past.
 
Dr. Bombay:
My, my. How quick some are to throw the Pope under the bus based on hearsay. But, hey, if it justifies your own rage and hatred against the man, it’s okay, right?

The sin of detraction is pretty serious last time I checked. Some of you might want to pray hard and think before posting anymore of your smarmy insinuations about Christ’s Vicar on earth.
I have prayed hard about this.

Here we go again, throwing out accusations of “rage and hatred” because you don’t like what we have to say. It happens every time here. Is this tactic the norm on this forum?

On and on for days they’ll go about “Wearing bright colors to Mass” or some equally trivial topic, while ignoring the “dreaded” sex abuse topics. Christ had a word for that type of person: Hypocrite.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
My heart goes out to the abused. But feeding lawyers isn’t going to undo the past.
Well, I guess we’ve found ourselves in a Catch-22 then, because I don’t believe doing nothing is going to undo the past either. I guess we’re caught between a rock and a hard place.
 
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MaryAgnes:
Appalling? The sexual abuses that were covered up by bishops of the Church are appalling! The Pope is not God–he is subject to temporal authority if he breaks the law or contributes to a crime done.

Baloney!
Code:
There were far too many bishops who covered up such cases for it to be their individual idea--I always felt they were opperating under a directive from Rome. Perhaps I am right.
 
 
You fail to understand that many of the Bishops didn't obey the Pope, they turned around and did what they wanted.   
 


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The Pope should at least be deposed. Only the Truth will set this church free!
The Pope cannot be forced out of office nor can he be forced to resign.
 
Appalling? The sexual abuses that were covered up by bishops of the Church are appalling! The Pope is not God–he is subject to temporal authority if he breaks the law or contributes to a crime done.
But, as SOVEREIGN PONTIFF he is the head of his own State and thus not subject to U.S. jurisdiction.
The Pope should at least be deposed. Only the Truth will set this church free!
By whom, the U.S. Gov’t? The liberal laypersons of the U.S. Catholic Church? No one can depose the Pope and he has done nothing that would even remotely deserve being deposed. You need to realize (like others have said) that Rome doesn’t micromanage every single parish and diocese around the world.
On and on for days they’ll go about “Wearing bright colors to Mass” or some equally trivial topic, while ignoring the “dreaded” sex abuse topics. Christ had a word for that type of person: Hypocrite.
So, we should be debating how the Church could more efficiently commit public suicide by banckrupting itself and loosing all credibility at the hands of secular media and courts?

Giving lots of money to a few people (and lawyers) is NOT THE ANSWER.

What happens when a protestant minister molests a child? Where are the lawyers going after the Southern Baptist Convention, or whatever other church?

If they were to truly seek justice, they would go after the pedophile himself and leave it at that. Any more, especially going after the Church itself is a terrible error and smacks of greed.

Also, I’d hate to find out any of these people were making up their story. Defaming priests, stealing Church money, trivializing the pain of true victims-I don’t know how much lower a person could go.
 
Sounds to me like this is a bit of a publicity stunt for a few reasons.
  1. Any attorney worth their salt would know that the Pope, as a head of state, is immune to this.
  2. Ergo, they can accuse all they want, rant and slander all they want, and never actually have to back up their accusations because it will never go to court.
  3. They can get great news coverage, lots of publicity, and more cases for their law firm as the guys who pursued “justice” all the way to the Vatican.
Ahhhh attorneys…from ambulance chasers to Popemobile chasers.
(All good and decent attorneys categorically excluded)
 
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mhansen:
I have prayed hard about this.

Here we go again, throwing out accusations of “rage and hatred” because you don’t like what we have to say. It happens every time here. Is this tactic the norm on this forum?

On and on for days they’ll go about “Wearing bright colors to Mass” or some equally trivial topic, while ignoring the “dreaded” sex abuse topics. Christ had a word for that type of person: Hypocrite.
I don’t believe anyone is trying to avoid anything except detraction and slander (or in this case, libel). The Holy Father has done nothing wrong. Period. Just because the anti-Catholic American media runs with a story accusing the Pope of all sorts of nefarious things, doesn’t mean it’s suitable fodder for discussion here. The sheet wearing, mouth breathing Nativist bigots of the 19th Century have learned to conceal their ignorance and hate. They’ve grown up and gotten sophisticated and forward thinking. Why, some of them even have degrees from such prestigious institutions as Harvard and the Columbia School of Journalism.

I side with Father Corapi. He said he has no use for people who attack the Pope because they all have an agenda of one type or another and he doesn’t even give those people the time of day.

Some of us try to live ALL of our Faith, not just the parts we find appealing. Therefore, we avoid spreading gossip. But if you want to give aid and comfort to the 21st Century No-Nothings, more power to you. You can assure them that you know for a fact that the Jesuits were behind 9/11 and the Pope causes AIDS to spread in Africa. 👍

Christ also said something about pointing out the splinter in someone else’s eye while ignoring the beam in your own. :whistle:
 
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MaryAgnes:
Again, I take exception. The Pope was not “pope” when he allegedly concealed the abuse. Having a letter that so states that fact is not merely “looking for deep pockets.”
anyone reasonably knowledgable of the facts of these cases would understand that the attorneys for the victims are looking for the big “score”, and are looking for a “deep pocket”. Some, but not all, are engaging in activity and language that is clearly anti-Catholic; not “allegedly”, but clearly. Most are not Catholic, and know little or nothing of how the Church functions; they have had no previous exposure to Canon law, do not understand how it works, nor do they care how it works.

To anyone who thinks that our system of justice is about pure justice, the reality is going to be somwhat like a cold shower; shocking, and not at all pleasant. The best litigators are capable of whippping up emotions, playing the case as a massive drama, and winning. Winning is what it is all about, and while there are legal restraints and ethical constraints on what the attorneys cand do and say, they are not what most folks think are the rules and the ethics.

There is nothing that Ratzinger did that would have hid anything, in terms of denying legally competent authorities from obtaining information by normal legal processes. If Ratzinger had found a priest to have been a sexual abuser of children, you can rest assured that Ratzinger would have resolved the matter in right short order, were it within his jurisdiction to do so, and that would not have included moving the priest around to abuse further. It would, however, have been handled as a Church matter, and as such, would not have been a public trial. Church trials are not public trials, and there is nothing either in civil law or Church law which woud require it to be.

The attorneys are attempting to make it sound as if Church law would have “protected” the priest. Had they bothered to find out how Church law works, we would not be dealing with this issue, unless the attorney was particularly bone-headed.

What you seem not to understand is that a lawsuit is like a drama; much of what is said is said for effect, not substance. The more the attorney can get publicity (and the press has been salivating at every press conference, waiting for the next chunk of raw, red flesh to be torn off some bishop and tossed to them), the more the attorney can make his case in the public forum instead of the courts of law. Why? Because the jackals of the “free” press aren’t constrained by those rules of law or ethics; they can report the latest sound bite from an attorney as if it were fact. Never mind the attorney would get nowhere with the arguement in court; he is in the court of public opinion, and the more he stirs the pot, the more is going to be retained by 1, 2 or more jurors, sworn to consider only the facts presented at trial.

By the time they get done with the trial, they won’t be able to sort out wht they heard in court, and what they heard two, three, six or more months before the trial started.
 
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MaryAgnes:
Appalling? The sexual abuses that were covered up by bishops of the Church are appalling! The Pope is not God–he is subject to temporal authority if he breaks the law or contributes to a crime done.

There were far too many bishops who covered up such cases for it to be their individual idea–I always felt they were opperating under a directive from Rome. Perhaps I am right.

The Pope should at least be deposed. Only the Truth will set this church free!
The conspiracy theory makes for great reading and goissip. The fact of the matter was that for a really long time, lillte was coming to the surface. When it did start to come, the bishops were, by and large, not talking at all about the matter amongst themselves or rome. Psychology was saying that it could cure an ephebophile, and the bishops reasonably (at least at first) believed the experts. The exerts were wrong, but it took a goodly period of time before that became apparant.

The bishops were also confronted with other issues: some of the victims, at least, did not want it known that they had been abused; the bishops were seriously concerned about the efeect of scandal on parishoners and its effect on their faith; there was the knee-jerk reaction that the teenagers ahd brought it on or “caused” it (a parallel is in rape cases; it is amazing how many people will blame the victim); and in some few circumstances, the bishops themselves had been abusers.

Sorry, but you are going to have to show someothing more than some attorney getting up and saying “conspiracy!”.
 
This reminds me of something I read in a book about the Early Church when Tertullian said something to the effect that the pagans screamed for the blood of the Christians every time the Nile flooded, and again for their blood every time that it didn’t flood.

Lots of folks do the same to our clergy-men and women that we should stand by and AT LEAST give the benefit of the doubt. However, seems like some folks are never satisfied no matter what happens. If something bad like the child abuse thing happens, pile blame, distrust, and insult on the clergy. If something good happens, then some folks complain that the clergy doesn’t do enough for their own individual pet project or unreasonable demand.

Nothing is good enough for some folks. What does the Lord say about the measure with which we use to judge people, that it shall be applied to us?
 
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MaryAgnes:
Appalling? The sexual abuses that were covered up by bishops of the Church are appalling! The Pope is not God–he is subject to temporal authority if he breaks the law or contributes to a crime done.

There were far too many bishops who covered up such cases for it to be their individual idea–I always felt they were opperating under a directive from Rome. Perhaps I am right.

The Pope should at least be deposed. Only the Truth will set this church free!
There is not evidence - at all - that the Pope had any knowlege of these abuses. Why are you so quick to accuse him of wrong doing?
 
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mhansen:
I have prayed hard about this.

Here we go again, throwing out accusations of “rage and hatred” because you don’t like what we have to say. It happens every time here. Is this tactic the norm on this forum?

On and on for days they’ll go about “Wearing bright colors to Mass” or some equally trivial topic, while ignoring the “dreaded” sex abuse topics. Christ had a word for that type of person: Hypocrite.
No - the people in this thread do not like the Vicar of Christ being accussed of covering a scandal without any - ANY - proof.

Nobody has ignored the sex abouse topic.
 
Scott Waddell:
What about admissions of abuse in the Sacrament of confession?

Scott
Of course, I don’t mean anything learned under the Seal of Confession. I particularly aimed this at parents who do not report it to the police, instruct the child or other siblings to keep this secret. Worst suspicion of all, is how come no cases were ever prosecuted by police/courts independently of bishops?
 
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bones_IV:
Read here please.

canon law 8

How Ratzinger sees the reporting in the U.S.

The world seen from Rome.
Sorry, Bones IV, I am not a canon lawyer and cannot interpret the first document. The second document is a lengthy newspaper article about the Pope.

My post was an opinion that everyone who knows a child is being abused is obligated to stop it, unless under the seal of the confessional, which does not apply to parents, siblings, teachers or the police. Why are these people being bought off, justice is not being served.
 
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