Pope, other religious leaders appear in new video on monthly prayer intention [CWN]
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Ron_Conte
Guest
The subtitles of the video are in English, as follows:
Pope Francis:
“Most of the planet’s inhabitants declare themselves believers. This should lead to dialogue among religions. We should not stop praying for it and collaborating with those who think differently.”
Individual believers:
Buddhist: “I have confidence in the Buddha.”
Jew: “I believe in God.”
Catholic priest: “I believe in Jesus Christ.”
Muslim: “I believe in God, Allah.”
Pope Francis:
“Many think differently, feel differently, seeking God or meeting God in different ways. In this crowd, in this range of religions, there is only one certainty we have for all: we are all children of God.”
Individual believers:
Buddhist: “I believe in love.”
Jew: “I believe in love.”
Catholic priest: “I believe in love.”
Muslim: “I believe in love.”
Pope Francis:
“I hope you will spread my prayer request this month: That sincere dialogue among men and women of different faiths may produce the fruits of peace and justice. I have confidence in your prayers.”
The above is the entire text of the video message of Pope Francis.
Pope Francis:
“Most of the planet’s inhabitants declare themselves believers. This should lead to dialogue among religions. We should not stop praying for it and collaborating with those who think differently.”
Individual believers:
Buddhist: “I have confidence in the Buddha.”
Jew: “I believe in God.”
Catholic priest: “I believe in Jesus Christ.”
Muslim: “I believe in God, Allah.”
Pope Francis:
“Many think differently, feel differently, seeking God or meeting God in different ways. In this crowd, in this range of religions, there is only one certainty we have for all: we are all children of God.”
Individual believers:
Buddhist: “I believe in love.”
Jew: “I believe in love.”
Catholic priest: “I believe in love.”
Muslim: “I believe in love.”
Pope Francis:
“I hope you will spread my prayer request this month: That sincere dialogue among men and women of different faiths may produce the fruits of peace and justice. I have confidence in your prayers.”
The above is the entire text of the video message of Pope Francis.
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CompSciGuy
Guest
I hate to be that guy, but…
This video gives me the heebie jeebies.
Smells very strongly of universalism.
Yeah, I get that he is calling for dialogue and all that. But seriously. Look at the way this is filmed. Especially the part at the end where the image of the infant king is placed alongside all the other religious symbols. Everything about this video seems to convey the idea that all religions are the same and there is nothing special about Christ or Christianity, and all we need to do is love each other (Edited). To have such a message coming from the vicar of Christ… this is very concerning.
This video gives me the heebie jeebies.
Smells very strongly of universalism.
Yeah, I get that he is calling for dialogue and all that. But seriously. Look at the way this is filmed. Especially the part at the end where the image of the infant king is placed alongside all the other religious symbols. Everything about this video seems to convey the idea that all religions are the same and there is nothing special about Christ or Christianity, and all we need to do is love each other (Edited). To have such a message coming from the vicar of Christ… this is very concerning.
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graciew
Guest
Code:
It is more concerning still tto say "** all** you have to do is love each other" as if it were a piece of cake...At least he is trying something instead of remaining sitting down and feeling " superior".
79 years old and on the move all over to foster peace.
(Edited)
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CompSciGuy
Guest
This could very well be done without the need to forsake the great commission. It’s all well and good to promote dialogue and peace. It’s another thing to communicate unviersalism. That is an evil in itself.
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Genesis315
Guest
The imagery is obviously concerning, but the thing that gets me the most is the apparent surrender to the idea that it is impossible to figure out the truth (when the Pope speaks of “the one certainty”). I get it–it really does seem that way sometimes–the faith seems so credible to me, why can’t other people who are apparently of good will figure it out too? It’s not a new problem. The Liberals in the 18th and 19th centuries saw this problem and proposed only reason and natural truth as knowable. Then, when people still were divided on what was truth using reason alone, they essentially gave up and subjectivism or modernism prevailed.
The problem is, once you give up on the possibility to know the truth, the whole faith collapses. What’s strange is Pope Francis himself described this path to darkness caused by such philosophies in first encyclical:
Pope Francis:
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20130629_enciclica-lumen-fidei.html
Likewise, everyone can say they believe in love, but you can’t really agree on what true love is unless you agree on what the ultimate good of the human person is and how to achieve it. And those religions disagree on this–only the truth revealed by God in Jesus Christ can illuminate this love.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
I’ve said it elsewhere, but seeing an image of Our Lord being held next to symbols of false religions is just heartbreaking. He was born to be Lord of all, not just another item on a shelf.
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graciew
Guest
Code:
He is the Pope and simple people who pray know it.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Pope Saint John Paul II:
“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” (Redemptoris Missio 10)
"For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded.
…
“What has been said, however, should not lead to the conclusion that her missionary activity is less needed in these situations – quite the contrary. In fact, whoever does not know Christ, even through no fault of his own, is in a state of darkness and spiritual hunger, often with negative repercussions at the cultural and moral level. The Church’s missionary work can provide him with the resources for the full development of Christ’s saving grace, by offering full and conscious adherence to the message of faith and active participation in Church life through the sacraments.”
(All Salvation Comes Through Christ)
“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” (Redemptoris Missio 10)
"For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded.
…
“What has been said, however, should not lead to the conclusion that her missionary activity is less needed in these situations – quite the contrary. In fact, whoever does not know Christ, even through no fault of his own, is in a state of darkness and spiritual hunger, often with negative repercussions at the cultural and moral level. The Church’s missionary work can provide him with the resources for the full development of Christ’s saving grace, by offering full and conscious adherence to the message of faith and active participation in Church life through the sacraments.”
(All Salvation Comes Through Christ)
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zz912
Guest
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Any believer – Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, other – who loves God and neighbor must be in the state of grace. Outside of the state of grace, there is no true selfless spiritual love of God or neighbor. So if non-Christian believers love, then they must have received a baptism of desire or blood.
Fallen sinners only enter the state of grace by some form of baptism. And then certainly they are children of God, having love, faith, hope, and all the virtues.
Fallen sinners only enter the state of grace by some form of baptism. And then certainly they are children of God, having love, faith, hope, and all the virtues.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
A living person cannot be said to have baptism by either desire or blood.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Why not? Every form of baptism must occur before death. We cannot be absolutely certain in each particular case as to who has received the baptism of desire or blood. But we can be certain that, in general, many people have, since God’s grace never fails to bear fruit.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
Well, if they haven’t died, then clearly they can’t be martyrs, because they haven’t died, which excludes baptism by blood. And if they’re alive, and they have access to water and to another human being, then by not having themselves baptized they are demonstrating that they do not desire to be baptized. The easiest thing would be to ask the Buddhist, Muslim or Jew from the video “do you desire baptism?” and just see what they say. There was a priest right there who could have had them all set in just a few minutes.
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graciew
Guest
catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2015/new-vatican-document-reflects-on-relations-between-catholics-jews.cfm
“Here we confront the mystery of God’s work, which is not a matter of missionary efforts to convert Jews, but rather the expectation that the Lord will bring about the hour when we will be united.”
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
I was specifically responding to the notion that a living non-Catholic can be considered to already have baptism either by blood or by desire. Thanks for sharing that link, I will read through it.
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Lev23
Guest
I realize the message in the OP is a general call to dialogue with other faiths. But as a side note to this, keep in mind the recent accord that went into effect between the Vatican and “Palestine”. Keep in mind the recent and ongoing stabbings by muslim/palestinians in Jerusalem and throughout Israel that stemmed from fear that Israel was changing their status towards their presence on the Temple Mount. Keep in mind that anti-zionist rabbis are getting louder and louder. Keep in mind Buddhism seems to be a religious flavor packet that many attempt to stir in with any religion or secular walk of life, especially pop culture(Karma,etc.). No matter what anyone’s religious, secular or political view on modern Israel are, or what real estate interest they have there, time is moving forward, so does Israel and the progress of their nation. From here on out, will modern Israel be a dividing point to any of these four religious figures presented in the video?
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
Didn’t you learn anything from the video? If everybody brings a symbol of their religion for show and tell, there won’t be any more wars!
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Baptism of desire can be implicit. The person who believes in God, loves God and neighbor, in full cooperation with grace, receives a baptism of desire, even without explicitly thinking “I’d like to be baptized”.
Catechumenate martyrs receive the state of grace prior to death. No one can receive baptism of any kind after death.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
I am not aware of any teaching that says a baptism of desire can be implicit. Catechumenate martyrs are preparing for baptism and desire to be baptized and then die before that desire is fulfilled, there’s nothing really implicit there. If you were to ask them “do you desire baptism” they would say “yes” and if, perhaps, they were confused on the matter, being martyred would bring about baptism by blood.
If you are wondering if someone desires baptism, just ask them. If they say no, the answer is no and you can exclude the possibility of baptism by desire. It’s beautifully simply.
Also, are you concerned that you may be passing judgment on the state of someone’s soul if you say they implicitly desire baptism? If a living person can already have baptism by desire, should the Church be conditionally baptizing converts over the age of reason in order to prevent the sacrilege of repeat baptism incase that implicit desire already baptized them? If they have baptism by desire are they bound by the other precepts of the Church that bind us when we receive baptism? Let me know your thoughts on these.
Unfortunately, confusions like these arise when strange messages like the video come from our beloved leaders.
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