Pope Pius X first Polish pope?

[JHFamily]

Surely there was a footnote or endnote in the book that would cite exactly where the information come from. Has anyone looked for this or followed it up?

 

[GiftofMercy]

My question is, have you heard this theory that Pope Pius X is actually the first Polish pope, and if so, do you believe it and/or know of any good more official sources that could confirm or deny?

Where was Pope Pius X born, what country?

 

[BartholomewB]

Where was Pope Pius X born, what country?

He was born in Venice in 1835, before the unification of Italy. When Italy later became a unified kingdom, then, of course, he became Italian. But when he was born, I suppose his true nationality was Venetian. There were no Italians at that time, at least in the sense that there was no such thing as Italian citizenship. There were only Florentines, Milanese, Sicilians, and so on, and of course citizens of the Papal State.
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[Pattylt]

Am I missing something important here or is this just a curiosity question? Is there something significant about being Polish? To me, the country where I, myself, am born has far more significance than where my grandparents are from. Sure, there are cultural habits that are carried down when relatives are originally from another country but other than that, what does being Polish have to do with being Pope? Are Polish Catholics very different than other Catholics?

Thanks for any help someone can bring into this!

 

[GordonP]

Is there something significant about being Polish?

Is there something significant about being Jewish, even when one is agnostic about the faith? For some reason, you yourself found it important enough to highlight your ethnicity in your user profile. Ask yourself why, and you have the answer to the question you just asked.

 

[Pattylt]

The only reason I list myself as a Jewish agnostic is so there isn’t confusion from those that might assume I had a Christian background and thus a deeper understanding of Christianity than I do.

Was my question inappropriate? If so, I certainly didn’t mean it to be. I’m still not sure if it’s an issue if he was Polish…that’s why I asked.

 

[GordonP]

The only reason I list myself as a Jewish agnostic is so there isn’t confusion from those that might assume I had a Christian background and thus a deeper understanding of Christianity than I do.

Fair enough. My misunderstanding.

As to your question, the ethnicity of a pope, or any famous individual, can be an enormous source of national pride to those who think that ethnicity does indeed have some significance.

In the case of Poland, this is doubly true, since the right-wing nationalists who currently dominate both the state and the Church believe that ethnic and religious identity are intimately and inextricably intertwined.

I lived in Poland for twelve years, and, yes, the Polish form of Catholicism struck me as very strange indeed, epecially in respect to ethnic chauvinism, nationalism and xenophobia. I found it strange even though all of my grandparents came from Poland and I grew up in a town where everyone was Polish or Polish-American.

The mythos is that Poland is the “Christ among nations” that suffered on the cross for the world. And somehow that’s supposed to mean something.

 

[Pattylt]

Thank you. I understand national pride and why the Polish tend to feel especially sensitive to their nation.

I’d like to know more on how Polish Catholicism varies from other nations but that is off topic to this thread…so, I’ll research it on my own and start a thread if I have any questions. Thanks again for explaining!

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I just looked at Ancestry.com. I found 28 family trees that included Pius X, 2 of which say he had a polish father. One of them claimed Jan Krawietz was called Giovanni Sarto, as if that were the equivalent translation. Most show his father as Giambattista Sarto who was born 10 years earlier in Italy.

Assuming the stories are true, Pius X may not only have been Polish, but also of Jewish ancestry. Krawietz is pronounced “Kravitz”, as in singer Lenny Kravitz (Jewish ethnicity, professed Christian).

Now that would be interesting. He certainly wouldn’t be the first Jewish pope. That would be Peter.

 

[GordonP]

but also of Jewish ancestry. Krawietz is pronounced “Kravitz”, as in singer Lenny Kravitz (Jewish ethnicity, professed Christian).

Krawiec is a total normal Polish surname that does not indicate Jewish background. It means “tailor”, as does “Sarto” in Italian.

Many Jews used ethnically Polish and German names.

 

[runningdude]

John Paul II grew up in Poland, and was a bishop in Poland.

If Pius X grew up in Italy, and became a bishop in Italy, it is not logical to say he is the first Polish Pope.

 

[GordonP]

If Pius X grew up in Italy, and became a bishop in Italy, it is not logical to say he is the first Polish Pope.

That’s correct. Nobody calls Pope Francis an Italian pope even though his father was Italian, as were both grandparents on hos mother’s side.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

but also of Jewish ancestry. Krawietz is pronounced “Kravitz”, as in singer Lenny Kravitz (Jewish ethnicity, professed Christian).

Krawiec/Krawietz/Kravitz could be Jewish, or it could not be. I am well aware that Krawiec (or Krawczyk) is a very common Polish name, and that it means “tailor”, as does Sarto. My son’s mother, grandparents and their family are native born Polish and I have a very basic conversational knowledge of everyday Polish, though I am far, far from being fluent.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

If Pius X grew up in Italy, and became a bishop in Italy, it is not logical to say he is the first Polish Pope.

Maybe it’s just me, but I think of him as Italian, or more precisely, an Argentinian of Italian parentage. It would be similar to, for instance, a son being born in Canada of parents or grandparents who had emigrated from England, then becoming an Anglican priest and being consecrated as Archbishop of Canterbury. Would he be “English”? I think so.

Actually, it was a convenient way for the conclave to elect an “Italian” pope (as conclaves have been known to do from time to time ) and be able to demonstrate that the Church is more than just Italian or European at the same time.

And maybe I’m just looking for it, but I think Pope St Pius X even looked a little Polish. Maybe around the eyes? The upper lip looks exactly like my son’s (half Polish), his mother’s, and his grandfather’s. PSPX didn’t look stereotypically Italian — he’s always made me think of actor George Kennedy (Dragline in Cool Hand Luke).

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[Polak]

Am I missing something important here or is this just a curiosity question? Is there something significant about being Polish?

Curiosity question. Just like you might be interested if you heard that somebody very prominent was Jewish and you didn’t know this before and weren’t sure if this was a rumour or true. You might want clarification on it, just to know the truth.

 

[BartholomewB]

It would be similar to, for instance, a son being born in Canada of parents or grandparents who had emigrated from England, then becoming an Anglican priest and being consecrated as Archbishop of Canterbury. Would he be “English”? I think so.

It’s a hypothetical question, and consequently there can be no clear, unchallengeable answer, but I suspect he wouldn’t be considered English, at least in the UK. To this day Bonar Law is generally remembered in Britain as the Canadian who became prime minister, even though he had moved to Scotland with his family at the age of about 12.

And I’m sure Pope Francis is not generally described as an Italian. Because of his parentage he has been entitled since birth to Italian citizenship, but I don’t know whether he ever exercised that option. Even if he did, even if he has always traveled on an Italian passport, it would still sound very odd to hear him described, at different periods, as “an Italian priest,” “an Italian cardinal”, or “an Italian pope”.

 

[Pattylt]

That’s why I asked…I was unsure if Polish Catholicism is identical to the rest of the faith or if there was some possible problem with him being Polish… I now know it is just pride in a pope coming from Poland…a country that has undergone tremendous hardships and political maneuverings over the years. I completely understand the pride involved. I didn’t mean to be asking a controversial question!

 

[Polak]

It’s okay. It did look a bit like you were saying ‘why does it matter if he is Polish? Does this make him better in some way?’, as if you felt that was what I was insinuating.

Either way I just wanted to clarify, no, it doesn’t, it just happened to be of interest to me, perhaps more than it would be to somebody who doesn’t have a Polish background.

 

[Pattylt]

Yes, sorry my question wasn’t worded better! I’m glad I could clarify it.

 

[Polak]

I agree with you on this to some degree. As somebody fairly patriotic, it makes me happy that Poland is a very Catholic country. I believe that Poland trumps many western nations in this way, even if she may not be as wealthy as they are.

There are however some very strong, one might even say quite far-right patriots, who see patriotism, nationalism and Catholicism as one in the same, and yes, they do see Poland as a country singled out by God for great things, or at least, as protected for being loyal to God for hundreds of years. I know some Poles who are very patriotic and Catholic, but sometimes I get the impression their patriotism trumps their Catholicism. It is Polish first, then Catholic, because that’s just part of being Polish. For me, while I do have national pride, Catholicism is, was and always will be number 1, and if Poland and/or the Polish government strays far away from Catholicism, perhaps I won’t be as proud to be Polish as I am now. I suppose my main source of pride in Poland is it’s faith. Of course, I love the landscapes, traditions, food etc. too, but that wouldn’t mean as much to me if not for the ever present Catholic faith.

I also wouldn’t play down the role of nations too much, and say, it doesn’t matter what the country because we live in one world. Yes that’s true, and I wouldn’t ever say anyone is doomed just because they are from a certain nation, but some nations have most certainly strayed away from God and the teachings of the Catholic church, while others have tried to keep following them. Have you read anything about France, and how the king was asked to consecrate it to Jesus? He didn’t, and some years later, we had the French revolution and the royals being brutally wiped out.