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CDB1718
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Isn’t there a named heresy that teaches this? Or is this flirting on the outskirts?
Pope praises order of Baptism, then Confirmation, then First Communion
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NinjaSnark
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I disagree. While I think rigorous catechesis is essential, even the most well-catechized person in the world cannot fully understand the grace of God… But we all need it.
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Peter_J
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While this recent discussion is very interesting, it’s pretty far off-topic. Maybe someone should start a thread about Anabaptist beliefs.
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Help2C
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It may be liturgically or theologically more correct to go back to the orginal order, but is it really practical? I have heard that religious education attendance at some parishes in the Fargo diocese have dropped almost 50%. Young people should receive the Sacrament of Confirmation before they really need it in high school, but what do they understand in 2nd grade? What would Jesus say?
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Vico
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This is a return to the original order but not the timing (for infants). The timing is that which was used by the sixteenth century. The original timing was as all three Holy Mysteries of initiation given together, adult or infant. Tertullian (circa: 160 - 225 A.D.) however, objected and favored waiting until age three.“And so, according to the circumstances and disposition, and even age, of each individual, the delay of baptism is preferable; principally, however, in the case of little children. For why is it necessary— if (baptism itself) is not so necessary — that the sponsors likewise should be thrust into danger? Who both themselves, by reason of mortality, may fail to fulfil their promises, and may be disappointed by the development of an evil disposition, in those for whom they stood? The Lord does indeed say, Forbid them not to come unto me. Let them come, then, while they are growing up; let them come while they are learning, while they are learning whither to come; let them become Christians when they have become able to know Christ. Why does the innocent period of life hasten to the remission of sins? More caution will be exercised in worldly matters: so that one who is not trusted with earthly substance is trusted with divine! Let them know how to ask for salvation, that you may seem (at least) to have given to him that asks.” (Tertullian on Baptism, 18; 208A.D.)
one-fold.com/?p=319
one-fold.com/?p=319
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Corki
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The practical reality in many parishes is that there is an even bigger drop off in attendance for the years between First Communion and high school. At the parishes where I have taught CCE, the “norm” if for children to come for FHC, disappear for the next 6 years, and then reappear when their parents want them Confirmed - a year ealier for the girls since they want them to have their Quincinera’s in the Church. The “practical” result is that more than half of the two year Confirmation prep is a remedial class covering the same material that was learned for FHC.
I think Jesus would say that parents are failing at being the primary educators for their children and bringing them to Mass and CCE but that’s hardly relevant to the question of restored order.
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Hesychios
Guest
Back to a point I made earlier, among those Christians of the eastern churches the initiatory sacraments are normally given in the correct order (correct by Pope Benedict XVI’s appraisal) and very early. The churches then have teen groups and catechesis not actually tied to a goal like acheiving a sacrament. The whole idea of “graduation” is separated from the sacrament.
Everyone knows that catechesis is important, and students don’t feel like they can quit just because they have made it to confirmation (or communion), for many of them it is not even something they can remember, there is a different expectation. The ‘graduation’ occurs when they have competed the course of study.
I was always struck and impressed by the knowledgability and zesty involvement of young Eastern Catholics in my time with them.
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Chris_McAvoy
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I fully agree with Hesychios. A most wise servant of God he is.
The concept that confirmation and baptism are separated sacraments of iniation comes from the narrow stream of the Roman liturgical tradition, limited specifically to that central region of Italy overlooking patterns evident in Gaul before the Carolingian reforms, as well as in the Mozarabic and Ambrosian rites. It was however in proconsular Africa, during Augustine’s time (late 4th c.) that the roman practices of separation of confirmation and baptism first spread to any region in the Latin West besides Rome itself.
In the fourth century Infant Baptism becomes the norm within a Christian society. The Catechumenate is shortened and the anointing, Confirmation, is further separated from Baptism and Eucharist. Many ways to experience initiation still exist. Increase in number of baptisms of infants as Christianity becomes normative. Baptism increasingly necessary and cleansing of Original Sin. Confirmation increasingly separated from baptism. -Roman rite imposed by Charlemagne with some variations in Spain, Milan, & Gaul.
Theologically: There is a shift in emphasis from Romans 6 to Genesis. Liturgically: Baptism is ministered with questions and answers and infants receive Eucharist. A high infant mortality rate and the increased popularity of the quamprimum initiation of infants pushes the adult catechumenate to the brink of extinction. It also increases the power and importance of confirmation, which “perfects” what was begun at the infant’s baptism. Catechesis is moved from its ancient place prior to baptism to the period of the growing life of the child after its baptism as an infant. With emperor Charlemagne, the Roman liturgy becomes the norm for all of Western Christianity. Catechumens are now primarily infants. This era is the beginning of written liturgical texts.
Carolingian reform (9th century) made Roman rite normative in West (not universally implemented). Infants still initiated by B/C/E. Shortening of catechumenate to 3 weeks. Gelasian Rite for sick catechumens starts the sequence of B/E/ later C. 11th and 12th centuries word “confirmation” actually used in rites. Not clear if confirmation is hand-laying or anointing. Focus on infants. Scrutinies become exorcisms during Lent. Parents/sponsors answer questions for the infant (creed). First known definitive prayers from Gelasian Sacramentary and Ordo Romanus XI for uniformity. Baptism and Confirmation are separated because of emphasized role of the bishop, but still mostly celebrated together. “Catechumenate” basically for infants. Communion is separated from baptism. Shift from adults to infants with theology of Original Sin. Initiation for “sick catechumen” established (BEC – change of order).
Peter Lombard composes his Sentences and defines the number of sacraments as seven. The RCIA in Spain, North Italy, and Gaul reveal a ritual pattern and theological interpretation distinct from Rome. The Spanish, Ambrosian, and Gallican rites knew only one post-baptismal anointing and no post-baptismal rites reserved exclusively to bishops. There is a shift from baptism as conversion to baptism washing away original sin. With Charlemagne crowned as Hoy Roman Emperor and his desire to unify his empire he began the process of in have a uniformity of liturgy with the Roman liturgy being normative. The Gelasian Sacramentary provides a clear picture of the rituals and rites in use in the church. The Rite of Initiation shortens the catechumen period to basically the period of Lent.
Three scrutinies are part of the rite for the Elect occurring on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th Sundays in Lent. The baptismal emphasis shifts back to John 3 and the majority of baptisms are of infants. The post-baptismal anointing with chrism is normal. The Gelasian Rite for sick catechumens gives the option of deferring confirmation to some later time and initiation consists of baptism and the Eucharist. Primarily focused on baptizing infants. Changes in post-baptismal anointing – bishop confirms and signs; “pat of peace”
It should be noted that the practice of separating confirmation from baptism did not occur within the Iberian Peninsula before the 11th century, when they used exclusively the Visigothic (Mozarabic) Rite. During the 11th century when the Frankish/Roman rite replaced the Visigothic the separation of these sacraments than began it’s existence there.
I recall that in St. Cyprian’s time (200’s) baptism and confirmation were also not yet separated in proconsular africa, by St. Augustine’s time on the other hand the idea of separating them had begun and may have been spreading, If I recall this created a conflict of some sort , possibly relating to an anti-pope or donatists and whether they were baptised validly, because there separation of confirmation was…well…creating confusion to say the least.
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Chris_McAvoy
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(continued from above)
It was all very interesting, read the book "Rome and the African Church in the Time of Augustine by J. E. Merdinger "
So up until the 14th and 15th century it was unknown for anyone older than 7 years old to be confirmed, generally in most places it was unknown beyond age 3 or 4.
Thus the practices being revived at present are highly esteemed and totally genuine life-giving patrimony of the one holy apostolic orthodox catholic church.
It was all very interesting, read the book "Rome and the African Church in the Time of Augustine by J. E. Merdinger "
Lastly there is this:
Even where we had the separation of confirmation as a priviledge of the bishop alone, the age at which it was given was very close to shortly after baptism, thus we read:
newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm
So up until the 14th and 15th century it was unknown for anyone older than 7 years old to be confirmed, generally in most places it was unknown beyond age 3 or 4.
Thus the practices being revived at present are highly esteemed and totally genuine life-giving patrimony of the one holy apostolic orthodox catholic church.
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Vico
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Hippolytus’ Apostolic Tradition (earliest Verona edition 215 A.D.) describes this original initiation practice in this order:
Baptism
The baptismal tradition is for the bishop to confirm (originally the imposition of hands) rather than for the priest to chrismate with the Holy Myron from the eparch.
Baptism and Latin confirmation were separated due to insistence that the bishop must administer it. Pope Innocent I (d. 417) instituted the change to oil administered only by the bishop suggesting the Paraclete Spirit is given and only through the bishop.
Infants were excluded from Latin communion when bread only began to be used (1215 A.D.).
References:
Aidan Kavanagh, Confirmation: Origins and Reform (New York: Pueblo, 1988).
Gerard Austin, Anointing with the Spirit: The Rite of Confirmation (New York: Pueblo, 1985).
The rites of Christian initiation: their evolution and interpretation by Maxwell E. Johnson, PhD [minister of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America] (1999, revised in 2007) Note: Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B., called it “the best overall treatment of Christian initiation available”.
Baptism
- bishop makes oil of thanksgiving and oil of exorcism
- anointing with oil of exorcism
- nude baptism (by triple immersion)
- anointing with oil of thanksgiving (then dry and get dressed)
- then in the church, bishop says dismissal rite over the neophytes: “Lord God, you have made them worthy to receive remission of sins through the laver of regeneration of the Holy Spirit, etc.”
- laying on of hands together with oil
- sealing with oil on the forehead
- the kiss of peace prayer
- deacons bring oblation (bread and wine, water, milk, and honey)
- the oblation is blessed
- the milk and honey are mixed together
- the bread is distributed
- each tastes of the water, milk with honey, and wine, three times.
The baptismal tradition is for the bishop to confirm (originally the imposition of hands) rather than for the priest to chrismate with the Holy Myron from the eparch.
Baptism and Latin confirmation were separated due to insistence that the bishop must administer it. Pope Innocent I (d. 417) instituted the change to oil administered only by the bishop suggesting the Paraclete Spirit is given and only through the bishop.
Infants were excluded from Latin communion when bread only began to be used (1215 A.D.).
References:
Aidan Kavanagh, Confirmation: Origins and Reform (New York: Pueblo, 1988).
Gerard Austin, Anointing with the Spirit: The Rite of Confirmation (New York: Pueblo, 1985).
The rites of Christian initiation: their evolution and interpretation by Maxwell E. Johnson, PhD [minister of Evangelical Lutheran Church in America] (1999, revised in 2007) Note: Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B., called it “the best overall treatment of Christian initiation available”.
Code:
[books.google.com/books?id=otQeg8-xSlEC](http://books.google.com/books?id=otQeg8-xSlEC)
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Hesychios
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Hesychios
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Hi Chris,
I am impressed by the effort that you put into this, it answered some questions I had long on my mind and could not have learned on my own, thanks a bunch.
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ThatOneGuy92
Guest
I must agree. This is impressive! I should copy this stuff down for future reference
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Vico
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You are welcome, I am glad I could share some of the research I did a while back.
Also note that Chrismation was given with Baptism and Eucharist in the west as well as the east, until about the fifth century. The Annointing was moved to a later age and then eventually first Confession was added in before first Eucharist.
books.google.com/books?id=otQeg8-xSlEC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=snippet&q=infant&f=false
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9058044&highlight=sixteenth#post9058044
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VeroMcLean
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Yea like it.
I had no idea this was possible! Can someone explain to me why people are so invested in doing this? And why all the Sacraments so young? I was sixteen when I was Confirmed – any earlier, and my catechesis would’ve ended!
“You can if you think you can”, George Reeves
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Peter_J
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Wow. And I thought my diocese was bad.
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otjm
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Some information I have picked up over the years - sorry I cannot source it now - which is presumably correct.
Early on in the Church the theology of Confession/Reconcilliation was not all that well developed, and whether by mandate or by practical practice, was viewed as a once-in-a-lifeltime sacrament. Various political leaders felt that they were not capable of leading a holy life; and so baptism was delayed until near death (at a time in the world where that was perhaps even less predictible than now). Baptism forgave all sins; if you had one more shot at it before you died, then it made practical sense to put it off. Thus deathbed conversions became prevalent, agains at least in some areas.
As a result, Confirmation was almost lost sight of, in practice if not in theory, at least in some areas.
Allegedly it was the Irish monks, doing missionary work to the Mainland, who turned the practice of Confession/Reconcilliation around, introducing it is as personal/privately practiced sacrament rather than as a public sacrament with public penance, and increasing its frequency.
Coupled with this is a saying that Confirmation has been, over the centuries, a sacrament in search of a theology, as there have been 6 or 7 distinguishable understandings/explanations of the sacrament.
As to who Confirms: at least in our archdiocese, priests by special permission may administer Confirmation on Holy Saturday Night to adults joining the Church. Adult Catholics who have not been confirmed are confirmed by the bishop or the archbishop at another date. Children are confirmed by the archbishop or bishop, on another date, and I do not know the date for RCIC kids.
And it is an old saw that where teenage children are confirmed, it becomes a “final rite of passage” for all too many, and catechesis effectivel stops.
Early on in the Church the theology of Confession/Reconcilliation was not all that well developed, and whether by mandate or by practical practice, was viewed as a once-in-a-lifeltime sacrament. Various political leaders felt that they were not capable of leading a holy life; and so baptism was delayed until near death (at a time in the world where that was perhaps even less predictible than now). Baptism forgave all sins; if you had one more shot at it before you died, then it made practical sense to put it off. Thus deathbed conversions became prevalent, agains at least in some areas.
As a result, Confirmation was almost lost sight of, in practice if not in theory, at least in some areas.
Allegedly it was the Irish monks, doing missionary work to the Mainland, who turned the practice of Confession/Reconcilliation around, introducing it is as personal/privately practiced sacrament rather than as a public sacrament with public penance, and increasing its frequency.
Coupled with this is a saying that Confirmation has been, over the centuries, a sacrament in search of a theology, as there have been 6 or 7 distinguishable understandings/explanations of the sacrament.
As to who Confirms: at least in our archdiocese, priests by special permission may administer Confirmation on Holy Saturday Night to adults joining the Church. Adult Catholics who have not been confirmed are confirmed by the bishop or the archbishop at another date. Children are confirmed by the archbishop or bishop, on another date, and I do not know the date for RCIC kids.
And it is an old saw that where teenage children are confirmed, it becomes a “final rite of passage” for all too many, and catechesis effectivel stops.
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