Pope praises Teilhard de Chardin

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Pope Benedict is entitled to speak as a private theologian without losing authority.
One of the menaces of heresy is it sometimes holds a little truth.
I trust the Pope has the gift of discernment, able to sift chaff from wheat.

Liturgy has many layers:
It is praise of the Creator; a statement of the dignity of man and the Liturgical Year takes us from creation, to incarnation, to final judgement.
This is true, but our holy Father was not talking about liturgy. He was writing eschatology.
Searching through websites I have been unable to uncover the text of Pope Benedict’s sermon. What I have found is commentary, and journalistic interpretation.
The Vatican’s website archives these things. You will need either the name of the speech or the date to find it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Even Aquinas implied evolutionary theory, though he did not use such words, because they did not exist in his time.
Really? Evolution of God’s creation? Where does he imply this?
Every pope since Pius XII has agreed that evolutionary theory and faith need not be in conflict as long as the hand of God in the mystery of creation is not denied and the centrality of man is recognized by the theory.
You say “evolutionary theory,” but is theology really theoretical?
 
What is so offensive about what the pope said? That he used Teilhard de Chardin’s name without cursing it? Do you oppose the idea of the cosmic liturgy as spoken of by St. Maximus the Confessor?
What is this “cosmic liturgy as spoken of by St. Maximus the Confessor?”

Also, I find this the most troublesome and ambiguous part of the homily:
The role of the priesthood is to consecrate the world so that it may become a living host, a liturgy: so that the liturgy may not be something alongside the reality of the world, but that the world itself shall become a living host, a liturgy.
This sounds exactly like what happened in the liturgical aftermath of Vatican II: the liturgy was watered down, Protestantized, and secularized, i.e., it became like a rock concert, something almost profane. It became something totally different than the Vatican II Council envisioned. From what the Pope says here, it sounds as though the priest’s job is to make it so that people worship the world like God. This is very disturbing. Also, how does a consecrated host become the world? This is pantheism. And why should a liturgy and the world become the same? God help our Pope! How does the fact that the liturgy is a sacrifice even fit in here?
 
What is this “cosmic liturgy as spoken of by St. Maximus the Confessor?”

Also, I find this the most troublesome and ambiguous part of the homily:This sounds exactly like what happened in the liturgical aftermath of Vatican II: the liturgy was watered down, Protestantized, and secularized, i.e., it became like a rock concert, something almost profane. It became something totally different than the Vatican II Council envisioned. From what the Pope says here, it sounds as though the priest’s job is to make it so that people worship the world like God. This is very disturbing.
From what the Pope actually says, it sounds like the priest’s job is to raise up the ordinary until all life becomes an act of worship of God.
Something the greatest saints seem to manifest in their lives. You really find that concept disturbing?!?

Also, how does a consecrated host become the world? This is pantheism.
How can you even read the Bible and not comprehend allegorical symbolism?
You think consecrating the entire world with the presence of Christ is pantheism?!?

And why should a liturgy and the world become the same? God help our Pope!
Yes, God forbid that the liturgy ever escape out of the confines of Sunday mass (and perhaps daily mass). 🤷

How does the fact that the liturgy is a sacrifice even fit in here?
:confused:
You seem to believe that any effort to bring the Divine into daily life to transform it can only result in the profane diluting and polluting the Divine.
Is your faith really that weak?

Saints of the caliber of Padre Pio have managed to successfully consecrate their lives to the Divine 24/7.
You really believe that suggesting this were a noble goal to accomplish world wide is a disturbing and threatening pantheistic heresy?
 
If we believe what John’s disciples wrote in the Prologue of John’s Gospel, "All was created through him and all was created for him . . . " There is not reason to deny that the world is consecrated and presented to the Father through the sacrifice of the Son. The Eucharistic celebration is the sacrifice at Calvary where the world is lifted up through the Son. And in the converse, the Son is to be found in the world.

If we deny this then we have to deny the writings of many mystics. We have to deny the value of the monastic life, where the world is seen as the visible sign of Christ’s presence We would have to deny Franciscan theology, which professes that all of created things: sun, moon, water, fire, etc are our brothers and sisters because they proceed from the hand of God and if we contemplate them they lead us back to God. We would have to deny the very idea that Christ restores all things, including the physical world. We would have to deny the theology of Christ’s 40 days in the dessert, where he undoes the damage that Adam did. Adam is given a sacred space where God can reign and man can reap the benefits of God’s reign. He sabbotages God’s plan. Christ restores it when he goes into the desert. He enters into solitude in the pysical world and through the rejection of sin (three times) he restores the innocence and majesty of the physical world in which God should reign and man should live in harmony with God through harmony with creation. Harmony with creation is not limited to harmony with other human beings. It’s harmony with everything that flows from God.

We have a cosmic understanding of God and man from Genesis, long before Fr. de Chardin was ever born. Pope Benedict is reminding us of the importance of understanding this. I don’t see what there is to be worried about here. The Holy Father is not saying anything that was not already said in the past. He simply uses Fr. de Chardin’s words to repeat what we already know about the role of the priest, the expanse of the Eucharistic sacrifice and the will of God to bring all things into one with him.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Geremia;5962199:
The role of the priesthood is to consecrate the world so that it may become a living host, a liturgy: so that the liturgy may not be something alongside the reality of the world, but that the world itself shall become a living host, a liturgy.
This sounds exactly like what happened in the liturgical aftermath of Vatican II: the liturgy was watered down, Protestantized, and secularized, i.e., it became like a rock concert, something almost profane. It became something totally different than the Vatican II Council envisioned. From what the Pope says here, it sounds as though the priest’s job is to make it so that people worship the world like God. This is very disturbing.
From what the Pope actually says, it sounds like the priest’s job is to raise up the ordinary until all life becomes an act of worship of God.
Something the greatest saints seem to manifest in their lives. You really find that concept disturbing?!?
Why did not he just say that, then? I think his use of the term “liturgy” is what is confusing me. He seems to be using it in a very broad, loose sense of “worship,” not in the sacramental, Sacrifice of the Holy Mass sense, right? How you put it is not disturbing at all; it is the Catholic concept that grace builds on nature. “[A]ll life becomes an act of worship of God” sounds Franciscan. I do not know much about their theology, but maybe they have something on the liturgy I could read? (I think there’s a Franciscan brother on this thread who could help me?)
Geremia;5962199:
Also, how does a consecrated host become the world? This is pantheism.
How can you even read the Bible and not comprehend allegorical symbolism?
You think consecrating the entire world with the presence of Christ is pantheism?!?
There is a difference between how God is present in the Eucharist (Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity) and how he is present in the world. He is the cause of it and is present in it in the manner in which a king is present to his kingdom, as St. Thomas Aquinas says. He is not the world inasmuch as a king is not his kingdom. So to “You think consecrating the entire world with the presence of Christ is pantheism?!?” I would say no; Christ is already present in His creation. But that the world should be a living host (God?) is weird. I guess I do not understand his usage of “host” and “liturgy” here.
And why should a liturgy and the world become the same? God help our Pope!
Yes, God forbid that the liturgy ever escape out of the confines of Sunday mass (and perhaps daily mass).
Of course! Why else, e.g., are there several chapters in Exodus describing how the Israelites should worship God? When the liturgy becomes worshiping whatever we please, then of course we’ll worship golden calves and other idols and eventually turn into pantheists. What is the purpose of the liturgy to you? It is a sacrament, so the grace it confers, if one frequents confession, would undoubtedly follow the Catholic out into the world. Why else does the priest say “Ita, missa est?” “Go, it is the dismissal [viz., “you are sent into the world”].”
How does the fact that the liturgy is a sacrifice even fit in here?
anon5216;5962266:
You seem to believe that any effort to bring the Divine into daily life to transform it can only result in the profane diluting and polluting the Divine.
No, laws, rules, rubrics are necessary to protect us from idolatry.
Saints of the caliber of Padre Pio have managed to successfully consecrate their lives to the Divine 24/7.
You really believe that suggesting this were a noble goal to accomplish world wide is a disturbing and threatening pantheistic heresy?
That is not what I understand Pope Benedict XVI talking about here; he speaks specifically of “liturgy.”
 
Liturgy is not confined to the Mass. Any activity that involves a leader and “the people” that is done repeatedly and in a specific order is done to a “liturgy”.

There are all kinds of liturgies that permeate our civic lives including the sessions of legislative bodies, the operation of court sessions, military ceremonies, etc.

The Mass is a particular liturgy we use to celebrate the sacrifice of Christ, His resurrection, hearing the Word of God proclaimed and in response to which we confess our faith in the creeds, confess our unworthiness and acknowledge that we receive grace from God.
 
If we believe what John’s disciples wrote in the Prologue of John’s Gospel
I thought John wrote John’s gospel. Anyways…
, "All was created through him and all was created for him . . . "
I think you mean Colossians 1:16 which says “All things were created by him and in him.” Some translations say “for him,” which is incorrect in both the Latin (in ipso) and the Greek (εἰς αὐτὸν). “In” makes so much more sense. God does not need the world. He created it for us, not Him. John 1 says “All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. …] He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not.”
There is not reason to deny that the world is consecrated and presented to the Father through the sacrifice of the Son.
Just because God incarnated Himself into the world does not imply the world is consecrated as though it all were Him.
The Eucharistic celebration is the sacrifice at Calvary where the world is lifted up through the Son. And in the converse, the Son is to be found in the world.
But the Son is not the world, which Pope Benedict seems to imply when he says the world should become a “living host, a liturgy.” He does use a lowercase “h” is “host,” but I still do not understand how the world becomes a liturgy, nor do I understand how a priest consecrates the world. A priest consecrates bread and wine, with the aid of the Holy Ghost, to offer up a sacrifice of the Trinity to Himself in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Just because bread and wine are things of this world does not mean one can by synecdoche assume it means all of creation.
If we deny this then we have to deny the writings of many mystics. We have to deny the value of the monastic life, where the world is seen as the visible sign of Christ’s presence We would have to deny Franciscan theology, which professes that all of created things: sun, moon, water, fire, etc are our brothers and sisters because they proceed from the hand of God and if we contemplate them they lead us back to God.
I do not deny that we know God through His creation nor that God’s grace builds on nature, but I do deny that God is His creation. Priests do not offer God’s creation to God or consecrate the world for Him in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; priests offer the Trinity Himself. The world alone is not enough of a sacrifice.
 
‘And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself’ (Jn 12:32)

Jesus is the Living Eucharist.
Where the Transubstiated Host goes, there is He in our midst.
When the bread and wine are lifted, the entirety of creation are lifted.

To put it crudely it’s like someone taking a hold of part of the cloth of life, a part is lifted all is lifted with it.

Through Christ our entire life becomes worship in liturgy.

God gives us creation, through the merits of Christ we give it back to God.
 
‘And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself’ (Jn 12:32)

Jesus is the Living Eucharist.
Where the Transubstiated Host goes, there is He in our midst.
When the bread and wine are lifted, the entirety of creation are lifted.

To put it crudely it’s like someone taking a hold of part of the cloth of life, a part is lifted all is lifted with it.

Through Christ our entire life becomes worship in liturgy.

God gives us creation, through the merits of Christ we give it back to God.
This is the point that the Holy Father is making. You’ve go the right of it.

I think there are two problems here, if I may take a guess.
  1. In our effort to be orthodox, sometimes we become very hypervigilant, to the point that we do not open ourselves up to new expressions of old truths. The idea in the Prologue of John’s Gospel, (which was not written by John, but that’s another story) is what Paul had written about long before John’s Gospel was written. Let us remember that Paul’s writing predate the Gospel of John. Everything is created through the pre-existing Logos and for the Logos.
But in our effort to be faithful to what we have learned, we sometimes deny the popes and others the freedom to express great mysteries in different langauge. We may often find outselves wanting to see the same language repeated over and over again, because we’re comfortable with that and it is familiar to us. But that’s impossible for one simple reason. We cannot deny popes wthe authority that they have to restate the faith in a manner that is consistent with their spirituality and with the spirituality that they feel the world needs. It is the moral duty of the pope to lead the sheep. Sometimes he has to leed the sheep in the same directioin that the Church has alway taught, but not necessarily using the same images and the same language. We have to allow him that freedom.
  1. The other reality that comes to play here is that we have been ruled by popes who have subscribed to the manner and system of Thomas Aquinas for centuries. Pope Benedict is not a Thomis. He does not subscribe to Aquinas’ method of doing theology. This does not mean that Aquinas conclusions were wrong. It simply means that Benedict XVI does not use his language or his method to arrive at the same conclusion.
It is public knowledge that Benedict’s inclination is a combination of Franciscan theology and Augustinian theology. These use very different language and very different methods at arriving at truth than does Thomas Aquinas. But the Holy Father is an expert on Bonaventure and Augustine. His language is going to be much more along that line.

Both Bonaventure and Augustine were very incarnational. In their theology, when Christ is incarnate, humanity is lifted up. For Bonaventure and Augustine the lifting up of all things in Christ and the restoration of all things to the Father begins at the Incarnation and culminates at the cross. That’s why Bonaventure tells us that when Jesus goes to the desert he restores harmony betweent he natrual world and the divine, so that in the natural world one can find that sacred space where God reigns supreme and man worships God. Bonaventure sees Christ’s trip into the desert as having two purposes: to prepare for his active ministry and to restore the order that was once in place in the Garden of Eden, before the creation of Adam. Because in Franciscan theology, Adam cannot come into the world, unless the natural world is transformed so that God lives and reigns in it and in turn, it speaks to man of God’s presence.

In Augustinian theology, the lifting of Christ on the cross is the lifting of humanity and all of creation. So that when the priest consecrates the host, we are back at Calvary, where humanity and creation are lifted up. Therefore, the world does become a host and the host does include the world, because it is Christ who has drawn all things to himself.

I would suggest reading the Holy Father’s book, Jesus of Nazareth. I cannot do justice to his theology in a short post. But his book explains this concept of a cosmic liturgy very well and the role of the priest as the one who consecrates the word along with the bread and wine. This is not contrary to dogma or doctrine. It is really part of the Mystical Theology of the Church. But it has not been discussed for a very long time, since the Church began to use Aquinas as its model for doing theology. Now we have a pope that is much more Franciscan and Augustinian. Most of us were not around when Bonaventure and Augustine “ran theology” in the Church. Notice I used quotation marks. In actuality, no one ran theology, not even Aquinas. The popes always did, but most popes were Thomists.

In recent memory the first pope not to be a Thomist was Paul VI and now Benedict XVI.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Dear Brother, I look forward to reading the Holy Father’s book Jesus of Nazareth:)

(Going a little deeper into ‘my’ thinking :eek:🙂

Free will (Jn 3:14,15); Sanctification/Christification takes our co-operation.

'And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation (Ex 19:6)

‘In thee shall all kindred of the earth be blessed’ (Gn 12:3)

‘For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law’ (Heb 7:12)

As a Christian it is our duty (free willed response) to Transfigure the world in Christ as a blessing through obedience (Rev 14:4)

‘And he said: Attend ye, all Juda, and all you that dwell in Jerusalem…Thus saith the Lord to you: Fear ye not, and be not dismayed at this multitude: for the battle is not yours, but God’s’ (2 Chron 20:15)

(Perhaps a Franciscan would say “Lord, make me a channel of your peace” 🤷)

Our whole life becomes one of royal priesthood, celebrating one cosmic Resurrection, transfiguring the world through Christ (Christification/sanctification)

First we have to move through crucifixion, dying to self and living to God.
 
I saw what Kevin wrote above and it makes sense. I believe that people get rattled is when they see new language being used. It gives the impression that someone is changing something. But in fact all that they are changing is the language.

In the theology of the Eucharist and the priesthood it has always been understood that the priest consecrates not only the bread and wine, but the whole world. The language that is being confused here is the that some people use the words consecration and transubstantiation interchangeably and they are not always interchangeable.

In the consecration of bread and wine there is transubstantiation. In addition to that, through the sacrifice of the cross, there is also the consecration of the world and everything in it. Because the priest is acting in pesona Christi, he is doing exactly what Christ did. He is changing bread and wine into his body and blood and he is raising the world up to the Father. Said in better language, he is presenting the world to the Father along with himself.

This is not Pantheism, far from it. It is not the world that makes God present, but God who makes himself present in creation and through creation. By making himself present in the the God-man, God makes himself present in creation. Jesus human nature is created, it is not eternal. In addition to that, God also makes himself present through creation, such as the burning bush, miracles, all of which involve creation (i.e. the parting sea, fishes and loaves, blind people seeing, etc).

The Jews already knew that God made himself present through creation. But in Jesus humanity, he makes himself present IN creation. Jesus human and divine natures can neither blend nor be separated. Where one goes, so does the other.

Since we are talking of God making himself present through creation and in creation, it is legitimate to say that the priest consecrated bread and wine and the world, remembering that consecration and transubstantiation are not always the same thing. But that there are two kinds of consecration taking place in one action by one man, the priest. This is what the Holy Father is saying.

Again, remembering that he is not a Thomist, but a Franciscan and Augustinian theologian, he is going to use the manner of speaking of Bonaventure and Augustine. Both of them were very much given to speaking using poetic language and deliberate ambiguities. They were deliberately ambiguous. The Holy Father follows that method. Ther reason they were deliberately ambiguous is because both Augustine and Bonaventure wrote from the perspective of mystical theology, not systematic theology. Mystical theology soars above the language of the common man. Look at John of the Cross.

If you read many of the writings of Augustine and Bonaventure, they are very ambiguous, because they are vary mystical. They did not write for the common Catholic. I’ve always said that they wrote for theologians and mystics. Our beloved Pope Benedict, true to his great love, follows their example. It sometimes takes someone who understands this language to translate it for the general public.

But for those who are interested in how Benedict’s mind wraps itself around the mystery of Jesus and the world, I strongly suggest his books, especially Jesus of Nazareth. One warning about Jesus of Nazareth, the book, not the person. The Holy Father references many Jewish theologians to explain many of the historical points. I know that some people get upset when they see a pope using non Catholic theologians. But the work is well done, because the points that he references are important, since the bible does not give us a lot of history about the culture and the Jewish people. It focuses on the faith. Pope Benedict tries to fill in the historical gaps or answer the historical questions. Not all, but many.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Brother, interdependence is another word often misunderstood.
Christ took what is corruptible and made it incorruptible.

God often takes the opportunity of profiting us by what is seemingly small and insignificant.

A woman, a priest, a piece of bread: Christ sees the bigger picture; “He took the occasion of perfecting His sacrifice not from Himself, but from others” (De Incarnatione, St Athanasius, 4th century).

Forty years after De Incarnatione, St Athanasius wrote to his friends about another book that he had tried to write, “the more I desired to write and endeavoured to force myself to understand the Divinity of the Word, so much the more did the knowledge thereof withdraw itself from me; and in proportion as I thought that I had apprehended it, in so much I perceived myself to fail of doing so. Moreover also, I was unable to express in writing even what I seemed to myself to understand, and that which I wrote was unequal to the imperfect shadow of the truth which existed in my conception.”
 
Geremia,

My apologies if the tone of my responses to you seemed too confrontational.
Since my spiritual studies and practice extend far outside the CC, I don’t cling to narrowly defined definitions of spiritual language.

JReducation expresses himself very clearly on this subject - and entirely within the CC tradition.
I especially appreciate his comments on Aquinas vs. Augustine, Bonaventure and Francis as being a difference between systematic and more ambiguous mystical theological language.

From my perspective, each has potential advantages and pitfalls.

The systematic can be very clear, precise and focused - very effective in clearing out the clutter and debris of a superficial worldly life.
However, even the most precise words are just symbols, and too intense a clinging to a specific set and sequence of such words easily degenerates into obsession with the symbols (words) themselves - rendering their use as spiritual tools ineffective.
This is what I describe as a form of mental idolatry.

Mystical language can take a person’s spirituality to very expansive and transcendent levels - escpecially (or perhaps almost ‘only’?) if the person is already far along in clearing out the clutter and debris of superficial worldliness.
Probably a reason this approach is typically connected more with those who have taken up the religious life formally.
The downside is that for those not properly prepared, mystical concepts can degenerate (in the unprepared mind) into vague, “means anything you want it to mean” psycho-babble.

Good reasons to find a qualified spiritual director, (from the spiritual tradition you are at home in), when going deeper into the spiritual life.
(Disclaimer: I don’t claim to be such a qualified person in any spiritual tradition).

Perhaps Pope Benedict’s use of language that requires more thoughtful reflection and discernment on the part of the listener/reader indicates his intention to push for a more spiritually advanced Catholicism - not just for the formally religious, but for the laity as a whole.
 
You have made so many excellent points here.
The systematic can be very clear, precise and focused - very effective in clearing out the clutter and debris of a superficial worldly life.
However, even the most precise words are just symbols, and too intense a clinging to a specific set and sequence of such words easily degenerates into obsession with the symbols (words) themselves - rendering their use as spiritual tools ineffective.
This is what I describe as a form of mental idolatry.
This would be an excellent example of why some people who call themselves “Traditionalists” are so adamant about Aquinas. It’s not that Aquinas spoke with any canonical authority. He was was never a pope. But the Church liked him, because of his precision. Aquinas was a gifted soul able to take from his mystical experience and use philosophy to explain it. It did not always work, but it worked enough times to make him a reliable teacher.

However, Aquinas also has a dry quality about him that did not appeal to some of the other great minds in the Church, such as the Franciscan School led by Bonaventure and the Carmelite School led by Teresa and John. They avoided words as much as they could, because it felt like mental gymnastics.
Mystical language can take a person’s spirituality to very expansive and transcendent levels - escpecially (or perhaps almost ‘only’?) if the person is already far along in clearing out the clutter and debris of superficial worldliness.
Probably a reason this approach is typically connected more with those who have taken up the religious life formally.
This language does appeal more to the contemplative than to the soul who is very active in the world.
The downside is that for those not properly prepared, mystical concepts can degenerate (in the unprepared mind) into vague, “means anything you want it to mean” psycho-babble.
It can sound like psycho-babble to the mind that is not trained to read and digest this language. You’re absolutely right.
Good reasons to find a qualified spiritual director, (from the spiritual tradition you are at home in), when going deeper into the spiritual life.
(Disclaimer: I don’t claim to be such a qualified person in any spiritual tradition).
The spiritual director should be one who is trained in the mystical life and the life of the soul. Not every priest is trained in this area. Spirituality is not part of the program of studies in diocesan seminaries.
Perhaps Pope Benedict’s use of language that requires more thoughtful reflection and discernment on the part of the listener/reader indicates his intention to push for a more spiritually advanced Catholicism - not just for the formally religious, but for the laity as a whole.
Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI are both very mystical men. When they speak, they tend to use the language and the methods of the great mystics and philosophers, rather than Aquinas. Therefore, they have a vision of the Church, dogma, doctrine and Jesus Christ that is out of the ordinary. Their insights are not in conflict with the faith. However, their insights are very new to the average Catholic who has been raised on the Catechism of Trent and the Baltimore Catechism, which go directly to the conclusioins, without expounding on the process that it took to get there.

John Paul II and Benedict XVI are much more interested in the process the the higher layers, if you will, of the faith. Benedict has made it a trademark of his pontificate to elevate the thinking of the average man in the pew to that of the mystical theologian. While many people love his discipline and his love for tradition, they are very uncomfortable with his discourse, because they don’t get back those nifty one line rules and guidelines that we were all used to getting from the catechism of Trent and Baltimore. Instead, John Paul and Benedict lay out the great spiritual challenges and let the listener do the work. By doing the work I mean that they leave it up to us to meditate and analyze each word, go in search of more and fill in the blanks.

An excellent example of this is Benedict’s statement on the Novus Ordo. He said that we had taken something that was the product of a long develoopment process and we replaced it with something that was fabricated with banal novelties. However, if we watch his celebration of the liturgy, he does the work that it requires to turn that into a very profound and solemn form of prayer. He never meant that statement as a license to dimiss the Novus Ordo. Had he meant that, he would not have elevated it to the Ordinary Form of the mass.

He accepts that the Holy Spirit acts through this. He proceeds to find the holy and to bring it out in what was originally the banal and the created. His example should invite others to do the same.

Some people have taken his original statement with it, rather than taking his example and finding the holy in it and fleshing that out But this is what a mystic does. A mystic takes the common and finds the supernatural in it. Benedict and John Paul II were experts at this.

The average Catholic has to step outside of his comfort zone and do as Thomas Merton once said, take the present as it is, with its strengths and weaknesses, recognize that this is the reality that we are living and then present oneself before God and ask him to help us find him in the middle of this. Merton also reminded us that we have to begin with ourselves, rather than with the universal Church. Saints did not begin their journey by examining the Church and the tradition. They examined their lives in light of the Church at the present. They adjusted their lives to respond to the Church. .

The mystic is the person who see the divine at work, slowly and meticulously.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Geremia,

My apologies if the tone of my responses to you seemed too confrontational.
No, they are not. I want to learn more about the liturgy, and argumentation helps me do that.
Since my spiritual studies and practice extend far outside the CC, I don’t cling to narrowly defined definitions of spiritual language.

JReducation expresses himself very clearly on this subject - and entirely within the CC tradition.
I especially appreciate his comments on Aquinas vs. Augustine, Bonaventure and Francis as being a difference between systematic and more ambiguous mystical theological language.

From my perspective, each has potential advantages and pitfalls.

The systematic can be very clear, precise and focused - very effective in clearing out the clutter and debris of a superficial worldly life.
However, even the most precise words are just symbols, and too intense a clinging to a specific set and sequence of such words easily degenerates into obsession with the symbols (words) themselves - rendering their use as spiritual tools ineffective.
This is what I describe as a form of mental idolatry.
Interesting! That reminds me of someone who told me we should not worship the sacraments but God!
Mystical language can take a person’s spirituality to very expansive and transcendent levels - escpecially (or perhaps almost ‘only’?) if the person is already far along in clearing out the clutter and debris of superficial worldliness.
Probably a reason this approach is typically connected more with those who have taken up the religious life formally.
The downside is that for those not properly prepared, mystical concepts can degenerate (in the unprepared mind) into vague, “means anything you want it to mean” psycho-babble.

Good reasons to find a qualified spiritual director, (from the spiritual tradition you are at home in), when going deeper into the spiritual life.
(Disclaimer: I don’t claim to be such a qualified person in any spiritual tradition).

Perhaps Pope Benedict’s use of language that requires more thoughtful reflection and discernment on the part of the listener/reader indicates his intention to push for a more spiritually advanced Catholicism - not just for the formally religious, but for the laity as a whole.
That is good. It should us to God.
 
This would be an excellent example of why some people who call themselves “Traditionalists” are so adamant about Aquinas. It’s not that Aquinas spoke with any canonical authority. He was was never a pope. But the Church liked him, because of his precision. Aquinas was a gifted soul able to take from his mystical experience and use philosophy to explain it. It did not always work, but it worked enough times to make him a reliable teacher.
I have heard that Popes John Paul II and Benedict are “Augustinians” instead of “Thomists.” Who was the last “Thomist” pope?
This language does appeal more to the contemplative than to the soul who is very active in the world.
Possibly
The spiritual director should be one who is trained in the mystical life and the life of the soul. Not every priest is trained in this area.
Theology is not enough?
Spirituality is not part of the program of studies in diocesan seminaries.
“Spirituality” sounds New Age. Is not theology enough? I do not understand.
Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI are both very mystical men. When they speak, they tend to use the language and the methods of the great mystics and philosophers, rather than Aquinas. Therefore, they have a vision of the Church, dogma, doctrine and Jesus Christ that is out of the ordinary. Their insights are not in conflict with the faith. However, their insights are very new to the average Catholic who has been raised on the Catechism of Trent and the Baltimore Catechism, which go directly to the conclusioins, without expounding on the process that it took to get there.
Pope Benedict thinks the Catechism of Trent is the best catechism, though.
An excellent example of this is Benedict’s statement on the Novus Ordo. He said that we had taken something that was the product of a long develoopment process and we replaced it with something that was fabricated with banal novelties.
That is for sure! When Pope Benedict was cardinal he said in The feast of faith: “Today we might ask: Is there a Latin Rite anymore? Certainly there is no awareness of it. To most people the liturgy appears to be rather something for the individual congregation to arrange.” But this is for another thread…
However, if we watch his celebration of the liturgy, he does the work that it requires to turn that into a very profound and solemn form of prayer. He never meant that statement as a license to dimiss the Novus Ordo. Had he meant that, he would not have elevated it to the Ordinary Form of the mass.
The Extraordinary Form is the elevated form of the rite, though.
He accepts that the Holy Spirit acts through this.
I think he is aware that the Novus Ordo has produced bad fruits. There are quotes of him basically saying it was an experiment. Summorum Pontificum is further proof that he sees renewal in the Church in its liturgical continuity with tradition.
He proceeds to find the holy and to bring it out in what was originally the banal and the created. His example should invite others to do the same.
The mass was never “originally the banal.” I am confused. :confused:
Saints did not begin their journey by examining the Church and the tradition. They examined their lives in light of the Church at the present. They adjusted their lives to respond to the Church.
True, but mystics like St. Catherine (definitely my favorite; I’ve read some of her things in Italian) also questioned, out of love for God and His Church, the authorities in the Church, writing letters to the pope urging to avoid schism, etc.
 
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