Pope question

[Lady_Kikyo]

I’m having a regular online discussion with a non-Catholic, and since traditional Catholics tend to know the papal writing pretty well, I thought I’d post the question here. (if it’s wrong, please tell me where to transfer:blush.

I need to know where what documents these quotes are from, I’ve had trouble finding them:

Pope Gregory VII (1073-85) :
“The pope cannot make a mistake.”

Paschal II: (1099-1118)
“Whoever does not agree with the Apostolic See is without doubt a heretic.”

Pope Innocent IV (1243-54):
described himself as “the bodily presence of Christ.”
(“presumably by a kind of transubstantiation at his election” this person says)

Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) :
“Every human being must do as the pope tells him.”

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903):
“We hold upon this earth
the place of God Almighty.”

I have no doubt that they’re accurate, but I’m equally sure that there’s more to the quotes than what he sent. (of course, he didn’t send a link or other citation). I don’t really need to know how to defend the attacks on the papacy, but I do need the context in order to address the quote accurately with him.

He’s an elderly gentleman, and I don’t want to sound like a smart-arse with a constant “prove it” reply.

Any help you have to offer is welcome, thank you.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Pope Gregory VII (1073-85) :
“The pope cannot make a mistake.” \

This statement simply is not true and has never been the teaching of the Church. Anyone knows that the Pope can err in a merely prudential judgement, as the following statment shows:

\Pope Innocent IV (1243-54):
described himself as “the bodily presence of Christ.”\

His claiming this did not make it so.

\Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) :
“Every human being must do as the pope tells him.” \

**This is probably a quote from Unam sanctam, which was a political polemic aimed at the German emperor.

Did your friend get these quotes from Catholic sources, or from an anti-Catholic polemical work? I think that’s a legitimate question to ask him.**

 

[yinekka]

Elderly gentleman or not he is attacking your Faith. First rule with non Catholics who present you with one sentence quotes from somewhere is to get them to provide you with the site from which the quotations came. You are not a smart arse to ask someone to provide a source for their attacks on the Church; why should you, or the people here, run around trying to find sources for these vague remarks. If he has these sentences and who allegedly said them he must have got them from somewhere - ask him where.

I have no doubt that they’re accurate

Why do you have no doubt that they are accurate?

You could always try googling the remarks and see what comes up.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

I agree with the above: do not assume these are accurate, even if this gentleman sincerely thinks they are, how does he know? If accurate they may be greatly out of context.

Even if context, pope’s have said and done ridiculously stupid things, so what? That’s no surprise to a Catholic.

Ask him for his sources!

 

[Shin]

These quotes are all out of context. They can be properly said within their proper context.

Without citing the actual source… You can if you know enough probably figure out what they really meant to be saying generally but that’s an assumption. It truly is the job of the quoter to provide the source in such a case, as otherwise it’s hearsay.

I don’t know if the quotes are genuine, all I am saying is they can be, even filtered through some Protestant anti-Catholic translator, and sliced out of their actual context.

In cases like this a good technique is to take two short Bible quotes out of context, quote them back, and say, “How do you like that? So don’t do it.”

One can also challenge whatever Protestant guru is the source of the person’s religion.

 

[MIKE46]

All of these quotes can be found on anti Catholic website such as “drunken with the blood of the saints.” and liberalslikechrist.org.

Interestingly no citations are given other than attributions to the different popes…

Take it for what it is worth.

 

[NPC]

As others have said, ask the inquisitor what his source is. I have put in separate searches for “the Pope cannot make a mistake” and “must do as the Pope tells him”. Each time I come up with about seven results - most clearly anti-Catholic websites, such as those mentioned by Mike46.

Such websites are full of this misinformation - perhaps the popes did say what has been quoted, but such quotes are not worth the air into which they’re uttered unless one can put them in context.

One website gave a bit of information on Pope Leo XIII’s statement - saying that it’s from an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894. Now, Pope Leo issued about 85 encyclicals, and the website is not even willing to provide the title of the encyclical they quote - they do not want to make it easy for the reader to investigate their claim. It was actually an Apostolic Letter that Pope Leo issued. It was called “The Reunion of Christendom”, and the portion which your inquisitor quotes is this:

But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, Who, when about to return to Heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest Prayer, that His Disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray . . . that they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us. And as this Divine Prayer and Supplication does not include only the souls who then believed in Jesus Christ, but also every one of those who were henceforth to believe in Him, this Prayer holds out to Us no indifferent reason for confidently expressing Our hopes, and for making all possible endeavors in order that the men of every race and clime should be called and moved to embrace the Unity of Divine Faith.

I hardly think this smacks of arrogance on the part of Pope Leo; rather, it is an acknowledgement of the great mission entrusted to him by God - a duty extending to all parts of Christendom a message of unity, which is what Christ Himself desired - furthermore, he states that his prayer for unity and care extends to all mortals - even those who may not believe in Christ. When looked at in context, it is a beautiful statement - indeed, the statement of a good shepherd.

 

[NPC]

I must apologise - given that I was going on about people not referencing their sources, it was remiss of me not to have given the source of The Reunion of Christendom:

HERE

 

[Lady_Kikyo]

Thank you all. When I googled those I only got anti-Catholic sources. I think I’ll ask him anyway to provide sources, while showing him how Pope Leo’s quote was misused by whatever site he retrieved it from (so he doesn’t think I’m calling him a liar). Anyway, please say a prayer for him, we’ll call him Mr. H. Thanks.

 

[NPC]

Thank you all. When I googled those I only got anti-Catholic sources. I think I’ll ask him anyway to provide sources, while showing him how Pope Leo’s quote was misused by whatever site he retrieved it from (so he doesn’t think I’m calling him a liar). Anyway, please say a prayer for him, we’ll call him Mr. H. Thanks.

Whatever you do, arm yourself with plenty of patience! If you don’t know something, don’t be afraid to say so & be careful to avoid making excuses for dark periods in the history of the Church - use CAF liberally to help you clarify things! It is likely that Mr H. won’t see Pope Leo’s statement as I described it - i.e. from a Catholic perspective. Unless he’s prepared to look at what the Church actually teaches on various issues - in this case, Papal infallibility - you probably won’t be able to change his views. You’ll have to decide if it’s a battle worth fighting, so to speak - if you feel that you can’t get anywhere with him, you may just have to tell him that you have done your best to be charitable in explaining the teachings of the Catholic Church, and all you can do now is pray that his eyes may be opened to the truth.

 

[Lady_Kikyo]

Whatever you do, arm yourself with plenty of patience! If you don’t know something, don’t be afraid to say so & be careful to avoid making excuses for dark periods in the history of the Church - use CAF liberally to help you clarify things! It is likely that Mr H. won’t see Pope Leo’s statement as I described it - i.e. from a Catholic perspective. Unless he’s prepared to look at what the Church actually teaches on various issues - in this case, Papal infallibility - you probably won’t be able to change his views. You’ll have to decide if it’s a battle worth fighting, so to speak - if you feel that you can’t get anywhere with him, you may just have to tell him that you have done your best to be charitable in explaining the teachings of the Catholic Church, and all you can do now is pray that his eyes may be opened to the truth.

“Patience is a virtue…that I do not have” as my sister always says. We’re not “chatting,” just emailing, so I’ve had time to cool down before responding. I don’t know how open he is to the truth, but he’s gotten friendlier lately. At first he attacked with the graven image misunderstanding, and worshipping on Sunday. When I addressed the issue of graven images (what the Bible teaches and what we as Catholics actually believe regarding them) he seemed to be satisfied…he hasn’t brought it up again. Now we’re working on the Sunday worship issue (which led to the Pope issue).

I may have to go through with your last suggestion…I’m going to give it a little more time though and see.