Pope revises catechism to say death penalty is 'inadmissible'

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Genesis315 said:
Just calling something a development doesn’t make it so.
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No it doesn’t. Just like just saying our understanding of human dignity has increased doesn’t make it so. Nor does saying modern unspecified methods can prevent a criminal from harming others make it so. Lack of specificity and vagueness are good signs something has been invented.
Dacinom said:
100 years ago in rural America, if a serial murderer we’re caught there might be difficulty guaranteeing the communities safety. This is why the Catholic Church permitted the death penalty in some cases for public safety.
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I don’t know about that. How often were there successful prison escapes? We still have them today so we can compare. I think the bigger issue was catching people in the first place and how much it cost to keep them up. When people were poorer the idea of spending a lot to keep a murderer alive might not sit well.
whichwaytogo47 said:
That’s because even with the most secure prisons doesn’t guarantee that a prisoner cannot conspire to commit murder, rape, kidnapping, or torture from inside prison. If you could guarantee that an individual couldn’t commit crimes from inside of prison, than I’d agree that the death penalty would have been a thing of the past.
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Everyone who thinks the death penalty is unnecessary should have to go spend a month living with some of these murderers in prison. If they survive the month then we can listen to their new opinion.
 
exnihilo said:
Everyone who thinks the death penalty is unnecessary should have to go spend a month living with some of these murderers in prison. If they survive the month then we can listen to their new opinion.
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+1. I totally agree. It’s easy to have a sanctimonious self-righteous opinion that you’re better than everyone else by being 100% against capital punishment; it’s a whole another matter if you’ve been in prison with the violence and their world-view and you see that it is at least potentially necessary.
 
joeybaggz
13m
Two words; Timothy McVeigh.

I would have to say that is where I’m in two minds on the issue…in cases of terrorism like that…or 9/11…serial killers…mass murderers…those who show no remorse whatsoever…it’s hard to find a lot of compassion…but…I’ll still abide by what the church teaches
 
Peebo said:
Two words; Timothy McVeigh.
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Even he should have faced life imprisonment. The Chesshire CT murders though, I’d be very hard to be opposed to the death penalty in that case. Anyone that can kill the mom, almost kill the dad, and rape innocent children and then set them ablaze should be tortured themselves or given a more humane lethal injection. Anyone that belongs to MS-13 which is an illegal alien gang should also have the availability of the death penalty if they commit murder.

I think you can still forgive someone and want good for their soul and for them to be repentant but still expect them to pay for their crimes up to and including the use of capital punishment.
 
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2 wrongs don’t make a right. Executing McVeigh didn’t undo the evil he did.
 
There really is no ambiguity on the Catholic Church’s position on abortion. Of all the political/social issues, I think this one is the one that is absolutely crystal clear.
 
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This will certainly have ramifications as far as voting for pro abortion politicians. Is the death penalty issue now on equal ground with abortion as seamless garment advocates wished for?
 
Ok. So I guess we’re done talking about it? Ireland just voted for abortion and the pressure is building on Northern Ireland to accept abortion. And there are several other countries around the world where people of good conscience are fighting the spread of abortion. While I am not in favor of the death penalty in most cases, I am more opposed to abortion in all cases.
 
That’s true…and I don’t disagree with you…but as I said I still have doubts in certain cases…but do abide by the church teaching
 
MikeInVA said:
Ok. So I guess we’re done talking about it? Ireland just voted for abortion and the pressure is building on Northern Ireland to accept abortion. And there are several other countries around the world where people of good conscience are fighting the spread of abortion. While I am not in favor of the death penalty in most cases, I am more opposed to abortion in all cases.
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I agree. It’s a real travesty that abortion is allowed and that eugenics is alive and well. It’s very scary that because an infant is imperfect and will be born with a birth defect that they are any less valuable than any of God’s human creation. It’s very sad that they are disposed of instead of accepting life for what it is: the beauty that God made it and the 100% worth of every human being.
 
mere_christian said:
But again that’s missing the point, my point is that the argument given is that the death penalty violates a humans inviolable dignity. In which case that would make it inadmissible, regardless of the situation of the justice system in a country or time period. Because inviolable means it can not be violated no matter what. It is clear that the church thought it was admissible in some cases and in the past. So this means the A) human dignity can be violated and is not inviolable B) The death penalty does not violate human dignity. Since the church has taught in the past that the death penalty is permissible , that means that it is either wrong about A) OR wrong about (B) either in the past or now.
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If the Catholic church has changed its teaching on the death penalty, can it change the teaching on the use of artificial birth control citing social responsibility or some other concern about overpopulation?
 
Birth control (especially barrier) is about marital relations not about the sanctity of life. I’m not sure if a birth control pill that causes a miscarriage is more egregious because of an abortion or because of the marital act not having consequences (i.e. guilt-free / consequence-free sex).

The church is also against IVF which is the artificial creation as well as potential for artificial destruction of life; it usually involves in over-ovulating a female and involves the creation of a baby outside that of the normal marital sex act. There is the potential for eugenics (i.e. specific birth defects that might make an embryo less viable or sex preferences) that makes IVF a very taboo issue except maybe for angel embryos. Angel embryos are artificial life created but have been donated and would otherwise be destroyed thus I don’t think the church has taken a position on whether they need to be thawed (and thus destroyed) or can be implanted in an infertile women or surrogate. I’m hoping that the church actually never takes a position due to the numerous ethical issues involved and leaves it up to prudential judgment and one’s free-will.
 
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yankeesouth said:
Is the death penalty issue now on equal ground with abortion as seamless garment advocates wished for?
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Certainly not, but of course you knew that. Pope Francis did not declare the DP intrinsically evil nor did he declared that the DP was the worst of all possible sins…
 
mrsdizzyd said:
Pope Francis did not declare the DP intrinsically evil nor did he declared that the DP was the worst of all possible sins…
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Actually, he pretty much did. I don’t know where he ranks it on the sin list, but he definitely placed it on the sin list.
 
AlNg said:
Is having adequate clean drinking water available for infants and children about the sanctity of life?
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I think having an adequate capitalist model to support a social welfare system that can make sure everyone has access to clean food and water and sanitary conditions is very important. I don’t think a communist or socialist model works at all nor does government corruption.
 
I think the Pope is confusing the inherent dignity in someone’s humanity, with the need for due justice and punishment. Even the Apostle Paul said,

“Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” Romans 1:32

“For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die.” Acts 25:11

I understand if the Pope wants to imply that in today’s world it may not be “necessary”, but to declare capital punishment as a violation’s of a person’s dignity is quite absurd.

And to say that capital punishment should be abolished because “we are made in the image of God” is 100% contrary to scripture, which plainly states,

“Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.” Genesis 9:6

Capital punishment is just because the murderer has lost all respect for life and the dignity of others. This punishment is not just to protect society, but it is due justice which God himself expects. Now, to have mercy on a certain individual murderer due to certain circumstances may seem reasonable, but to point blank abolish as capital punishment all such sentences is just outlandish.

I stand with the Apostle Paul, with God, and the Psalmist David, who said,

“And he shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the Lord our God shall cut them off.” Psalm 94:23

and,

“Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.” Psalm 2:11

It is manifestly clear from scripture that capital punishment is not just a just judgment demanded by God, but that men in power everywhere are bound by God himself to execute such justice on the wicked and evil.

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God… For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil… For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” Romans 13:1-4
 
Cyrano said:
If a prisoner killed one guard per day while in a high tech prison, what is the punishment for that?
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  1. Has this actually happened, ever?
  2. Would not the prison improve its security after this happened one time in order to prevent the loss of more guards?
  3. Would not the next guard in the presence of this prisoner be looking out for any little twitch and upon the least move to kill, the guard would kill the prisoner, justifiably, in self-defense?
 
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