Pope said there is conspiracy amung Freemasons, against the Church

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Be careful with these. Leo XIII was fooled into believing many lurid accusations made about the Freemasons by French satirist Leo Taxil. The former was publicly embarrassed by the latter, in what is now known as the Taxil Hoax.
 
Freemasons are considered enemies of the Church. You cannot be a Freemason and a Catholic.
 
DaddyGirl said:
all evil tied together…dark conspiracy against God…*

That doesn’t sound so “nice” to me!

.
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The word nice was twofold-first, to be offhand and flippant, and second nice as in it is nice that a pope of past took the time to warn us of this enemy of the Church.
 
This old line again. Conspiracy theories are ridiculous and I always chuckle when I see them, until I realize people out there hold them as fact.

Freemasons ARE NOT out to harm the Catholic Church, or any other religious group.

Freemasons ARE a fraternity that uses biblical allegory to teach lessons of morality, the same lessons morals found in the Bible. Reverted God, be honest, do unto others, etc. Freemasonry is not there to compete with Christian morality, but to reinforce basic morality irrespective of religious creed. You can be a person who acts in a moral without being a Christain. Christianity is the perfect and fullest expression of how to live, but claiming that non-Catholics cannot be moral is wrong.

Every time someone brings up an quote from Albert Pike fails to read the quote in context.

Please. I am getting a bit tired of seeing people lose it because they think Freemasons are trying to subvert the Church.
 
nysacerdote said:
This old line again. Conspiracy theories are ridiculous and I always chuckle when I see them, until I realize people out there hold them as fact.

Freemasons ARE NOT out to harm the Catholic Church, or any other religious group.

Freemasons ARE a fraternity that uses biblical allegory to teach lessons of morality, the same lessons morals found in the Bible. Reverted God, be honest, do unto others, etc. Freemasonry is not there to compete with Christian morality, but to reinforce basic morality irrespective of religious creed. You can be a person who acts in a moral without being a Christain. Christianity is the perfect and fullest expression of how to live, but claiming that non-Catholics cannot be moral is wrong.

Every time someone brings up an quote from Albert Pike fails to read the quote in context.

Please. I am getting a bit tired of seeing people lose it because they think Freemasons are trying to subvert the Church.
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When freemasonry was founded, they said it themselves…
What do you say of the 1904 Masonic conference in Brussels where it was said:
“TO FIGHT AGAINST PAPACY IS A SOCIAL NECESSITY AND CONSTITUTES THE CONSTANT DUTY OF FREEMASONRY.”
Not sure what context that would be OK in…

And what of the secret oaths, which have prompted the Church to say any Catholic affiliating with masonic sects is automatically excommunicated…

And I guess all the popes are…conspiracy nut cases then? :rolleyes:
 
nysacerdote said:
This old line again. Conspiracy theories are ridiculous and I always chuckle when I see them, until I realize people out there hold them as fact.

Freemasons ARE NOT out to harm the Catholic Church, or any other religious group.

Freemasons ARE a fraternity that uses biblical allegory to teach lessons of morality, the same lessons morals found in the Bible. Reverted God, be honest, do unto others, etc. Freemasonry is not there to compete with Christian morality, but to reinforce basic morality irrespective of religious creed. You can be a person who acts in a moral without being a Christain. Christianity is the perfect and fullest expression of how to live, but claiming that non-Catholics cannot be moral is wrong.

Every time someone brings up an quote from Albert Pike fails to read the quote in context.

Please. I am getting a bit tired of seeing people lose it because they think Freemasons are trying to subvert the Church.
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You are terribly wrong. Please read this link to understand why or disprove me: ewtn.com/library/answers/camason1.htm

I quote from ewtn, a very reliable catholic site, “Historically, one of Masonry’s primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church”

Also this very site condemns it as well:catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-church-say-about-freemasonry

From that link:

“Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion.”

All those who are Freemasons are excommunicated. The teaching on Freemasons is infallible. You can’t disagree with it
 
ialsop said:
When freemasonry was founded, they said it themselves…
What do you say of the 1904 Masonic conference in Brussels where it was said:
“TO FIGHT AGAINST PAPACY IS A SOCIAL NECESSITY AND CONSTITUTES THE CONSTANT DUTY OF FREEMASONRY.”
Not sure what context that would be OK in…

And what of the secret oaths, which have prompted the Church to say any Catholic affiliating with masonic sects is automatically excommunicated…

And I guess all the popes are…conspiracy nut cases then? :rolleyes:
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Your own words betray a basic misunderstanding. The quote you mentioned is infamous in that it is known to lack credibility. Further the Church does not excommunicate members of the faithful who enroll in masonic lodges. As per the clarification issued by then-Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI), those Catholics who are in Masonic lodges are simply to be refused the Eucharist. However, this is not an infallible statement, as it was issued from Cardinal, not a Pope ex cathedra.

Please be informed about what we are discussing.
 
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theoda said:
You are terribly wrong. Please read this link to understand why or disprove me: ewtn.com/library/answers/camason1.htm

I quote from ewtn, a very reliable catholic site, “Historically, one of Masonry’s primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church”

Also this very site condemns it as well:catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-church-say-about-freemasonry

From that link:

“Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion.”

All those who are Freemasons are excommunicated. The teaching on Freemasons is infallible. You can’t disagree with it
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Um no. Infallible declarations only come from the successor of Peter, when it is issued ex cathedra. Please see above post.
 
nysacerdote said:
Your own words betray a basic misunderstanding. The quote you mentioned is infamous in that it is known to lack credibility. Further the Church does not excommunicate members of the faithful who enroll in masonic lodges. As per the clarification issued by then-Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI), those Catholics who are in Masonic lodges are simply to be refused the Eucharist. However, this is not an infallible statement, as it was issued from Cardinal, not a Pope ex cathedra.

Please be informed about what we are discussing.
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Have you read the canon law? It clearly excommunicates any freemasons
 
theoda said:
Have you read the canon law? It clearly excommunicates any freemasons
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READ the clarification of the canon law. From the Vatican website here
doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9 March 1981).

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.

Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect
  • Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
    Titular Archbishop of Lorium
    Secretary
“The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”-- That is the penalty. Not excommunication.

Not a word about excommunication. Again, I urge everyone to do their research.

*Also, all the grammar errors are not mine. The vatican has some interesting translations. Please click the link to verify this information.
 
nysacerdote said:
READ the clarification of the canon law. From the Vatican website here
doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9 March 1981).

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.

Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect
  • Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
    Titular Archbishop of Lorium
    Secretary
“The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”-- That is the penalty. Not excommunication.

Not a word about excommunication. Again, I urge everyone to do their research.

*Also, all the grammar errors are not mine. The vatican has some interesting translations. Please click the link to verify this information.
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Not being allwoed to receive Eucharist is the worst part of excommunication, and it is WAY more serious then you think. If that is not condemnation I dont knwo what is.
 
nysacerdote said:
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Um no. Infallible declarations only come from the successor of Peter, when it is issued ex cathedra. Please see above post.
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Ok. Let’s say that it isn’t infallible. Let’s say that you are right. Then all the saints and popes are wrong too!

Pope Saint Pius X created the 1917 code of canon law which clearly excommunicates Freemasons

“The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion…Consequently, neither the excommunication nor the other penalties envisaged have been abrogated.” - Cardinal Ratzinger, Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, November 26, 1983

St. Maximilian Kolbe was against Freemasons.
 
nysacerdote said:
READ the clarification of the canon law. From the Vatican website here
doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DECLARATION ON MASONIC ASSOCIATIONS

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.

This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.

Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9 March 1981).

In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.

Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect
  • Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
    Titular Archbishop of Lorium
    Secretary
“The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”-- That is the penalty. Not excommunication.

Not a word about excommunication. Again, I urge everyone to do their research.

*Also, all the grammar errors are not mine. The vatican has some interesting translations. Please click the link to verify this information.
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Seriously, have you read this:

“Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enrol in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”

Freemasonry is evil!
 
ialsop said:
Not being allwoed to receive Eucharist is the worst part of excommunication, and it is WAY more serious then you think. If that is not condemnation I dont knwo what is.
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Ok. So consider this. If you commit a mortal sin. You cannot receive Eucharist. However, you are not excommunicated.

This is what the letter states. You are trying to say the two are equal and they are not. Yes, not being eligable to receive the Eucharist is an intense punishment, however it is not excommunication. You can still confess. Excommunication denies access to ALL the sacraments. You’re misunderstanding is warping your entire conceptualization of the issue.

This letter was written to clarify the Canon Law. The clarified, explicitly mentioned penalty is denial of the Eucharist, NOT excommunication.

Again, please research this further. The question of infallibility (which this document does not meet the requirements of) cannot be discussed until you understand what excommunication even means.
 
nysacerdote said:
Ok. So consider this. If you commit a mortal sin. You cannot receive Eucharist. However, you are not excommunicated.

This is what the letter states. You are trying to say the two are equal and they are not. Yes, not being eligable to receive the Eucharist is an intense punishment, however it is not excommunication. You can still confess. Excommunication denies access to ALL the sacraments. You’re misunderstanding is warping your entire conceptualization of the issue.

This letter was written to clarify the Canon Law. The clarified, explicitly mentioned penalty is denial of the Eucharist, NOT excommunication.

Again, please research this further. The question of infallibility (which this document does not meet the requirements of) cannot be discussed until you understand what excommunication even means.
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Yes, I realize all this. So, I admit, it is not excommunication. I was wrong in that regard. Nonetheless, my stance on freemasonry being evil and an enemy of the Church is clearly still standing, supported by what you yourself are saying.
 
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