Pope Says Liturgical Abuses Detract from Christ

  • Thread starter Thread starter mdgspencer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mdgspencer

Guest
The Pope told a crowd of 20,000 gathered in St. Peter’s square that it is not any individual–priest or layman–that celebrates the liturgy, but it is primarily God’s action through the Church. It cannot be created or amended by experts or by any individual parish or group in a kind of self-manifestation of itself. When priests or parishioners reflect on how to make the liturgy attractive, interesting and beautiful, they can risk forgetting the fact that the liturgy is celebrated for God and not for ourselves. The liturgy is God’s work and He is the subject, and we must be open to Him and to His body which is the Church. “The liturgy is not our, my ‘action,’ but the action of God in us and with us.”
see www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=6267
 
mdgspencer said:
The Pope told a crowd of 20,000 gathered in St. Peter’s square that it is not any individual–priest or layman–that celebrates the liturgy, but it is primarily God’s action through the Church. It cannot be created or amended by experts or by any individual parish or group in a kind of self-manifestation of itself. When priests or parishioners reflect on how to make the liturgy attractive, interesting and beautiful, they can risk forgetting the fact that the liturgy is celebrated for God and not for ourselves. The liturgy is God’s work and He is the subject, and we must be open to Him and to His body which is the Church. “The liturgy is not our, my ‘action,’ but the action of God in us and with us.”
see www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=6267
Click to expand...
But how the Liturgy evolved is some clergy doing some stuff differently and catching on. While I agree that recent abuses have been pretty bad, let us not pretend that the Liturgy has been this way from the Last Supper.

I mean what is he trying to say here? That no one but the Pope can change the Liturgy?
 
mdgspencer said:
The Pope told a crowd of 20,000 gathered in St. Peter’s square that it is not any individual–priest or layman–that celebrates the liturgy, but it is primarily God’s action through the Church. It cannot be created or amended by experts or by any individual parish or group in a kind of self-manifestation of itself. When priests or parishioners reflect on how to make the liturgy attractive, interesting and beautiful, they can risk forgetting the fact that the liturgy is celebrated for God and not for ourselves. The liturgy is God’s work and He is the subject, and we must be open to Him and to His body which is the Church. “The liturgy is not our, my ‘action,’ but the action of God in us and with us.”
see www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=6267
Click to expand...
I love Benedict XVI!

There are plenty of other ways that people SHOULD be using their creativity to make parishes more attractive so that they are busier on a daily basis. But leave the MASS alone!!!
 
ConstantineTG said:
But how the Liturgy evolved is some clergy doing some stuff differently and catching on. While I agree that recent abuses have been pretty bad, let us not pretend that the Liturgy has been this way from the Last Supper.

I mean what is he trying to say here? That no one but the Pope can change the Liturgy?
Click to expand...
Where were you last November 27th? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Well the quote says “it cannot be amended by experts”. And aren’t the Bishops of our Church the “experts”?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Well the quote says “it cannot be amended by experts”. And aren’t the Bishops of our Church the “experts”?
Click to expand...
I believe the holy father was referring to professional liturgist and other experts who try to “amp up” the liturgy without understanding the theological underpinnings of the mass.
 
Usige said:
I believe the holy father was referring to professional liturgist and other experts who try to “amp up” the liturgy without understanding the theological underpinnings of the mass.
Click to expand...
If they do not understand the theology of the Mass, then they aren’t experts 🤷
 
mdgspencer said:
The Pope told a crowd of 20,000 gathered in St. Peter’s square that it is not any individual–priest or layman–that celebrates the liturgy, but it is primarily God’s action through the Church. It cannot be created or amended by experts or by any individual parish or group in a kind of self-manifestation of itself. When priests or parishioners reflect on how to make the liturgy attractive, interesting and beautiful, they can risk forgetting the fact that the liturgy is celebrated for God and not for ourselves. **The liturgy is God’s work and He is the subject, and we must be open to Him and to His body which is the Church. “The liturgy is not our, my ‘action,’ but the action of God in us and with us.”**see www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=6267
Click to expand...
Boldface above–I don’t believe this is correct. :confused: Is this perhaps a poor translation of the Holy Father’s message? Or am I misunderstanding his meaning because this paragraph above is out of the context of the whole message?

Liturgy is the work of the people, not the work of God.

Here is the definition in the Catholic Encyclopedia: (there is much more, but I included two paragraphs that demonstrate that liturgy is the “public duty,” or “work of the people,” not “the work of God.”)

Liturgy (leitourgia) is a Greek composite word meaning originally a public duty, a service to the state undertaken by a citizen. Its elements are leitos (from leos = laos, people) meaning public, and ergo (obsolete in the present stem, used in future erxo, etc.), to do. From this we have leitourgos, “a man who performs a public duty”, “a public servant”, often used as equivalent to the Roman lictor; then leitourgeo, “to do such a duty”, leitourgema, its performance, and leitourgia, the public duty itself.

So in Christian use liturgy meant the public official service of the Church, that corresponded to the official service of the Temple in the Old Law.

Please explain. Thank you.
 
Cat said:
Liturgy is the work of the people, not the work of God.
Click to expand...
You seriously don’t believe that Jesus Christ left us the Mass??? :confused:

I’m not sure how this can be MORE clear - the Mass does not belong to us. It is FOR us, but not owned by us. We are the caretakers of what has been left to us. And being a caretaker means maintaining and taking care, not modifying and changing it to be in one’s own image.

~Liza
 
ConstantineTG said:
If they do not understand the theology of the Mass, then they aren’t experts 🤷
Click to expand...
The Pope probably should have used air quotes around “experts”. There are plenty of people who call themselves liturgists because they have taken a couple seminars on making the liturgy “vibrant”. When I was received the liturgical director asked us after each rite what we liked, what we didn’t like, and what we would change to make the rites “speak to us”. I believe these are the type of “experts” Pope Benedict was referring to.
 
Faithdancer said:
Our beloved Pope Benedict XVI definitely loves the EF!
Click to expand...
Except that the Holy Father’s comments said nothing about one form of the Mass or another.

His comments had to do with the subjectivity of beauty, that it is in the eye of the beholder, and that the Mass in any form should not be altered to fit one’s own subjective view of beauty. That is a sword which cuts both ways.

The imposition elements of the Extraordinary Form into the Ordinary Form where it is not called for in order to make the Mass more “Beautiful” for one person is just as bad as the imposition of elements of the Ordinary Form into the Extraordinary Form where they are not called for so that another can have better worship “Experience.”
“Let us ask the Lord to learn every day to live the sacred liturgy, especially the Eucharistic celebration, praying in the ‘we’ of the Church, that directs its gaze not in on itself, but to God, and feeling part of the living Church of all places and of all time,” Pope Benedict said in conclusion.
Click to expand...
This is something which lovers of both the EF and the OF should take to heart. Notice that the Holy Father said "of all places and of all time. The Holy Father is telling us that the Mass is about Jesus, about God, and not about architecture or language or what we think of the choice of music.

He is basically telling all the arm-chair music directors and internet critics to sit down, shut up and pray, to stop focusing on liturgy for the sake of liturgy but focus on God and Christ, and let the Church handle the liturgy.

-Tim-
 
ConstantineTG said:
Well the quote says “it cannot be amended by experts”. And aren’t the Bishops of our Church the “experts”?
Click to expand...
The Bishops are the Church.

Without a Bishop there is no Church. Where the Bishop is, the Church is there also. A Priest cannot act of his own volition, but does so because he is attached to a Bishop.

Bishops are the authority, and appoint their own experts who report directly to him, which in the Latin Church usually means the head of the Office of Divine Worship for each diocese. God speaks through his Church. The Office of Divine Worship is who we should be listening to.

-Tim-
 
ConstantineTG said:
Well the quote says “it cannot be amended by experts”. And aren’t the Bishops of our Church the “experts”?
Click to expand...
As other posters have said, the Pope is referring to those individuals who take it upon themselves to meddle with the liturgy…the so called “experts” who have taken a seminar or read a few books. It is a given, in our understanding of the liturgy and the Church, that the Pope and bishops can modify the liturgy as necessary…
 
lizaanne said:
You seriously don’t believe that Jesus Christ left us the Mass??? :confused:

I’m not sure how this can be MORE clear - the Mass does not belong to us. It is FOR us, but not owned by us. We are the caretakers of what has been left to us. And being a caretaker means maintaining and taking care, not modifying and changing it to be in one’s own image.

~Liza
Click to expand...
For the last 25 years priests and bishops have been saying “‘Liturgy’ means ‘the work of the people’”. That definition of liturgy has been pounded into people’s brains in homilies, faith formation classes, RCIA classes, adult education classes, and the like.

Naturally it is startling to hear the pope say the liturgy is God’s work.

I suspect the problem is the word “work”. I think the pope was probably using the word “work” in more of the sense that we speak of a masterpiece like a ‘work of art’ or a musical composition. Creating that masterpiece was work. The 25+ year old definition of work is more the sense of the orchestra and singers having to perform the piece (which is definitely hard work).

God created the Liturgy and the people have to perform it for the creator.

At least that is what I take from it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top