Pope Says Liturgical Abuses Detract from Christ

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lizaanne said:
You seriously don’t believe that Jesus Christ left us the Mass??? :confused:

I’m not sure how this can be MORE clear - the Mass does not belong to us. It is FOR us, but not owned by us. We are the caretakers of what has been left to us. And being a caretaker means maintaining and taking care, not modifying and changing it to be in one’s own image.

~Liza
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I agree with Cat here. The Greek clearly says that it is the work of the people. I Apostles would have called it something else if it is not the work of the people. And your conclusion is wrong, it doesn’t mean Jesus left us. Jesus in fact guaranteed us that if 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name, He will be among them. Which is the other original meaning of “Church”. Eklesia, a gathering.
 
Usige said:
The Pope probably should have used air quotes around “experts”. There are plenty of people who call themselves liturgists because they have taken a couple seminars on making the liturgy “vibrant”. When I was received the liturgical director asked us after each rite what we liked, what we didn’t like, and what we would change to make the rites “speak to us”. I believe these are the type of “experts” Pope Benedict was referring to.
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Well, he needs to take lessons from me in sarcasm. Hahahahah! He should have said “so-called experts” :D:D:D
 
ConstantineTG said:
But how the Liturgy evolved is some clergy doing some stuff differently and catching on. While I agree that recent abuses have been pretty bad, let us not pretend that the Liturgy has been this way from the Last Supper.

I mean what is he trying to say here? That no one but the Pope can change the Liturgy?
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He is trying to say that there is a big difference between the decisions of an Ecumenical Council of all bishops reunited and the independent actions of single priests or even of lay faithful.
 
R_C said:
Yes, through Holy Church, His mystical Bride, of which He is the head.
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The suggestion was that Christ literally wrote the Mass as recited today. If so, the Mass itself would have only one acceptable form, as was given, and the Church would have no ability to change form or content.
 
TimothyH said:
The Bishops are the Church.

Without a Bishop there is no Church. Where the Bishop is, the Church is there also. A Priest cannot act of his own volition, but does so because he is attached to a Bishop.

Bishops are the authority, and appoint their own experts who report directly to him, which in the Latin Church usually means the head of the Office of Divine Worship for each diocese. God speaks through his Church. The Office of Divine Worship is who we should be listening to.
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That’s not at all what the church has said about the mater:

RS. no. 27: “Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required.”
 
superamazingman said:
That’s not at all what the church has said about the mater:

RS. no. 27: “Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required.”
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Meaning there is no such thing as ad experimentum usage of any kind without permission from Rome?
 
superamazingman said:
That’s not at all what the church has said about the mater:

RS. no. 27: “Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books. In order to carry out experimentation of this kind in the future, the permission of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments is required.”
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I wonder how organic development would happen then.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I wonder how organic development would happen then.
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For example:

Wearing one style of chasuble instead of another (note that I do not include cartoon-style silly vestments in this category, but rather Gothic vs. conical vs. Roman and so on)
 
superamazingman said:
Certainly not how it’s been happening in the last 50 years.
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Agreed. But do we prevent a good thing just because something bad happened? I’m pretty sure there were abuses in the past as well that died out because everyone agreed they were silly. And the true innovations prevailed because everyone agreed they were holy. But where will we source these true innovations now? Are we setting up a “liturgical lab” somewhere where liturgical innovations are to be invented and tested for orthodoxy?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Agreed. But do we prevent a good thing just because something bad happened? I’m pretty sure there were abuses in the past as well that died out because everyone agreed they were silly. And the true innovations prevailed because everyone agreed they were holy. But where will we source these true innovations now? Are we setting up a “liturgical lab” somewhere where liturgical innovations are to be invented and tested for orthodoxy?
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I’m pretty sure at this point, it’s doing more good than harm…
 
ByzCathCantor said:
The suggestion was that Christ literally wrote the Mass as recited today. If so, the Mass itself would have only one acceptable form, as was given, and the Church would have no ability to change form or content.
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Christ planted the seed, which was the Last Supper, and ever since He directs the growth of the healthy plant of the liturgy through the Church.
 
R_C said:
Christ planted the seed, which was the Last Supper, and ever since He directs the growth of the healthy plant of the liturgy through the Church.
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Using this analogy and argument, all forms of the Liturgy must be seen as having come from Christ. For our Latin Catholic brothers and sisters, this means both the Usus Antiquior and the Novus Ordo.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Using this analogy and argument, all forms of the Liturgy must be seen as having come from Christ. For our Latin Catholic brothers and sisters, this means both the Usus Antiquior and the Novus Ordo.
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Bingo. They have come to us through his church that he speaks through.
 
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