Pope says one Mass in the long-term

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rben20

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Hello Catholics,

I recently read an article on zent on how Pope Benedict XVI wishes to have a single Mass for the Roman Rite with also a single calendar and single everything that coincides with having only one Mass and not two forms that are in place right now. My question is why? Why are we in such a wash? We already had one Mass for such a long time only to change it in the 1960s…which was to also last and remain single until recently with bringing back the EF. Now the OF won’t get much of a chance and the reintroduction of the EF will be brief with talks about another Mass…I just don’t understand why anything was changed to begin with. I feel like the Mass should have just been left unchanged if we were going to end up with only one Mass anyway. What are your all’s thoughts?
 
My question would be, what happens to these rites?

Anglican Use
Algonquian and Iroquoian Uses
Zaire Use
Ambrosian Rite
Rite of Braga
Mozarabic Rite
Carthusian Rite
Western Rite of sui generis type
Benedictine Rite
 
They won’t be effected because those are separate things then the Roman Rite.
 
I agree with the OP — diversity is the spice of life. I seriously doubt Pope Benedict would go ahead with this. Perhaps some future pope might but I can’t see it happening for decades. There is no popular demand for a hybrid rite and it would almost certainly prompt a schism.
 
maritain said:
I agree with the OP — diversity is the spice of life. I seriously doubt Pope Benedict would go ahead with this. Perhaps some future pope might but I can’t see it happening for decades. There is no popular demand for a hybrid rite and it would almost certainly prompt a schism.
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a schism among BOTH traditionalists and progressives. Since Humanae Vitae, popes have been doing all in their power to prevent such a thing happening. Not likely they’ll stop now.

Far from modernizing the 1962 Missal I think we could be doing with restoring some lost features, such as the traditional Holy Week. Pre-Reformation rites like Sarum also need to be encouraged, as do the other Latin rites.
 
rben20 said:
Hello Catholics,
We already had one Mass for such a long time only to change it in the 1960s…
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It is an absolute fallacy that the Extraordinary Form Mass never changes, and was never meant to be changed in any way whatsoever. Changes have been made many times in the past, including in 1604, 1634, 1884, 1911, 1920, 1955, and 1960. It was never meant to be stuck in a time warp. HOWEVER… it was always stated that those changes were to be made organically… in other words, small changes that made sense over time, such as slightly altering an individual prayer, or updating the calender with feast days for new saints named since the last revision of the missal. What many (including apparently the pope) believe is that if the letter of the law of the Second Vatican Council had been followed, the changes to the Mass would have been far less significant or jarring, and would have made more sense. Instead, what you have now is a reform that’s like a pendulum that’s swung too far in the opposite direction. He believes by reintroducing the Extraordinary Form, the two sides will begin to enrich each other “organically”, until we reach a point, say, in 50-100 years, where they will merge again and be indistinguishable. This will make the reform far more subtle and acceptable to everyone involved. Syncronizing the calenders would be the most obvious first reform, since the most common reform in the past was changing the calendar to add newly created saints.

I will also second what was previously stated in this thread, which was that the Roman Rite has many forms already, and always has.
 
There should be at least a High Mass and a Low Mass of whatever the single Mass will be in the future. I agree that there shouldn’t be multiple forms of Mass existing in parallel. It just causes division in the same tradition of the Church.
 
ProVobis said:
My question would be, what happens to these rites?

Anglican Use
Algonquian and Iroquoian Uses
Zaire Use
Ambrosian Rite
Rite of Braga
Mozarabic Rite
Carthusian Rite
Western Rite of sui generis type
Benedictine Rite
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Don’t forget the Dominican and Carmelite rites.

I want to say there is a difference between the Roman Rite and the Latin Rite. I feel like these all fall under the former, whereas the the EF and OF are the latter (or is it vice-versa?! Confusion abounds.)

Sometimes I wish I had never heard there were more rites in the Church. It makes me all the more sorry for the abuses done to the OF.
 
Unlikely. In any well recorded written document he declares the duality of the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms, also clearly allowed the Anglicans to keep their form, and with the Council accept the reality of the Eastern rites. Not the for but the hearts are important.
 
well what ever direction the Mass develops organically in the future I hope they keep the revised lectionary, to my mind the most significant and beneficial of the changes that ensued after 1968. If we can see the OF stripped of abuses that were never intended and never mandated in any V2 proceeding or document-- most of which are banned topics here but we all know what they are – that will go a long way.
 
Rolltide said:
It is an absolute fallacy that the Extraordinary Form Mass never changes, and was never meant to be changed in any way whatsoever.
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For those interested in linguistics, since the vernacular was introduced, even the OF has taken on many translated subforms, all of which the Vatican has to keep track of. Each translation has its own set of nuances and has a slightly different character than another; some will be revised more often than others. (Just like all differing Bible translations, though we have but one Bible.)
 
maritain said:
I agree with the OP — diversity is the spice of life. I seriously doubt Pope Benedict would go ahead with this. Perhaps some future pope might but I can’t see it happening for decades. There is no popular demand for a hybrid rite and it would almost certainly prompt a schism.
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A schism only among those without suffiecient faith in the Papacy. Too many Laymen are taking on too much power or pretend authority in the Church. This goes for both ends of the spectrum.

Now or in future the Pope may do somethings I like and somethings I don’t but I will live with it. Isn’t this our call?
 
ProVobis said:
For those interested in linguistics, since the vernacular was introduced, even the OF has taken on many translated subforms, all of which the Vatican has to keep track of. Each translation has its own set of nuances and has a slightly different character than another; some will be revised more often than others. (Just like all differing Bible translations, though we have but one Bible.)
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Its not like the Latin is never unofficially translated into Missals wherever its used. I’d rather listen to words that are approved by the Vatican than unapproved translations done by whomever.
 
rben20 said:
Hello Catholics,

I recently read an article on zent on how Pope Benedict XVI wishes to have a single Mass for the Roman Rite with also a single calendar and single everything that coincides with having only one Mass and not two forms that are in place right now. My question is why? Why are we in such a wash? We already had one Mass for such a long time only to change it in the 1960s…which was to also last and remain single until recently with bringing back the EF. Now the OF won’t get much of a chance and the reintroduction of the EF will be brief with talks about another Mass…I just don’t understand why anything was changed to begin with. I feel like the Mass should have just been left unchanged if we were going to end up with only one Mass anyway. What are your all’s thoughts?
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I would love to read that article. 🙂
Was it a recent article? I would think something like that would have made big waves in the Catholic community.
 
Here is the article. Sorry it isn’t zent (I read lots of articles) but still the sources are not fishy at all.

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/05/20/the-pope%E2%80%99s-ambition-a-powerful-blend-of-the-novus-ordo-and-the-old-rite-could-sweep-the-church/

In regards to those who are talking about other rites, they would not be affected. It is specifically the Roman Rite of worship. Other rites including the Eastern Catholic and their respective rites would not be affected as they already have their own single Mass. I am not aware of another rite that shares two forms of the same rite. Low and High Masses don’t count…
Rolltide said:
It is an absolute fallacy that the Extraordinary Form Mass never changes, and was never meant to be changed in any way whatsoever

…

I will also second what was previously stated in this thread, which was that the Roman Rite has many forms already, and always has.
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Hey Rolltide. I went ahead and quoted two points you made. I understand in regards to the EF that changes were made in the sense that updates are made ever so often. I have no problem with that. It is truly organic. I am not arguing that it should stay frozen in time. But lets face it, we could still recognize that it was the same Mass. The changes in the 60s were so drastic that people could obviously tell it was a new Mass altogether even so much as people treated the EF Mass as abrogated (when it never was).

Second point is no there are not many forms. There are many rites in the Church yes, but forms within the Roman there are only two. There is some confusion there in your post. Pope Benedict XVI calls the EF and the OF “two forms of the same rite” No one even knew that was the case till 2007.
 
rben20 said:
Here is the article. Sorry it isn’t zent (I read lots of articles) but still the sources are not fishy at all.

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/05/20/the-pope%E2%80%99s-ambition-a-powerful-blend-of-the-novus-ordo-and-the-old-rite-could-sweep-the-church/

In regards to those who are talking about other rites, they would not be affected. It is specifically the Roman Rite of worship. Other rites including the Eastern Catholic and their respective rites would not be affected as they already have their own single Mass. I am not aware of another rite that shares two forms of the same rite. Low and High Masses don’t count…

Hey Rolltide. I went ahead and quoted two points you made. I understand in regards to the EF that changes were made in the sense that updates are made ever so often. I have no problem with that. It is truly organic. I am not arguing that it should stay frozen in time. But lets face it, we could still recognize that it was the same Mass. The changes in the 60s were so drastic that people could obviously tell it was a new Mass altogether even so much as people treated the EF Mass as abrogated (when it never was).

Second point is no there are not many forms. There are many rites in the Church yes, but forms within the Roman there are only two. There is some confusion there in your post. Pope Benedict XVI calls the EF and the OF “two forms of the same rite” No one even knew that was the case till 2007.
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Ah thanks Rben 👍

Looks like the article you were referring and linked to was commentary on the article I linked to. The one by John Thavis.

Thanks for the clarification! 🙂
 
It is in keeping with the tradition and practice of the Latin Rite to simplify, combine, and hew down the Liturgy as time progresses. Over the centuries, various rites were suppressed or progressively ignored by Rome. It all culminated in Trent in 1570, with the famous declaration that no rites created in the 250 years prior should survive. More simplifications of the Breviary occurred in 1911, and then a total revision in 1942 brought this process of centralisation and slimming to its ultimate end. Vatican II, with its result of an ultimate, authoritative, and very much minimised Mass, was just a logical conclusion to this process. With the Dominicans and others abandoning their rites for the New Mass, how can anyone claim that the cycle of unity was not complete?

The Latin Rite tends to prefer to gather all power and authority over every matter into one sphere. You can’t have so many rites in this ideological atmosphere, nor many forms of the Mass. The West loves “one glove fits all” type things, and this is true for the holy Mass. Though it may not be part of Benedict XVI’s plan, there will be only one form of the Mass in distant centuries to come. It’s the way we think.
 
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