Pope sends 7-minute video message to Pentecostal gathering [CWN]

[Church_Militant]

By now many are past being surprised by the Holy Father.

I grew up in the pentecostal tradition, which is predominantly and viciously anti-Catholic.

Generally and sadly true, though it varies a bit depending on who you encounter.

As for the question above as to what sort of unity we are praying for…I just ask for it and leave the mechanics of it to The Almighty, since such things are above my pay grade.

I have no doubt that what that will entail will be Catholic, but as to how it comes to pass, I have no idea. One thing that I have noticed is that many n-Cs have it in their heads that what they believe and practice is the same thing that the early church did, but have have no knowledge of what the early church wrote beyond the New Testament, which is understandable from their Sola Scriptura perspective, but which leaves the them at a disadvantage without that historical context to inform their understanding of the Word of God. That’s one reason that I wrote the following blog article.
What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?

 

[ltwin]

I grew up in the pentecostal tradition, which is predominantly and viciously anti-Catholic.

I grew up in it too, and let me tell you that its diverse, more diverse today than its ever been before. Your experience growing up Pentecostal may not be representative of other parts of the movement, especially as to contemporary views of the Catholic Church.

The Pentecostals that were addressed by the Pope are not denominational Pentecostals. They are not “classical Pentecostals.” They are part of the Word of Faith movement, and as such have had a lot of cross pollination with the charismatic movements-both Protestant and Catholics.

 

[DaveBj]

I have to say I’m surprised by how little attention this is getting.

Now, after having actually seen the video, I share your surprise. This was a huge moment.

I grew up in the pentecostal tradition, which is predominantly and viciously anti-Catholic.

So did I (Church of God, early 50s and 60s), altho I have to say that our own pastor (a redneck Floridian transplanted to northern Indiana) didn’t ride that hobby-horse much. His anti-Catholicism was limited to the fact that Catholics smoked, drank, and cussed. This meant that they were sinners, and they needed to get saved and live holy lives, because “It’s holiness or hell!”

Having said that . . .

I grew up in it too, and let me tell you that its diverse, more diverse today than its ever been before. Your experience growing up Pentecostal may not be representative of other parts of the movement, especially as to contemporary views of the Catholic Church.

The Pentecostals that were addressed by the Pope are not denominational Pentecostals. They are not “classical Pentecostals.” They are part of the Word of Faith movement, and as such have had a lot of cross pollination with the charismatic movements-both Protestant and Catholics.

. . . this is very true.

 

[Pulvis]

I grew up in it too, and let me tell you that its diverse, more diverse today than its ever been before. Your experience growing up Pentecostal may not be representative of other parts of the movement, especially as to contemporary views of the Catholic Church.

The Pentecostals that were addressed by the Pope are not denominational Pentecostals. They are not “classical Pentecostals.” They are part of the Word of Faith movement, and as such have had a lot of cross pollination with the charismatic movements-both Protestant and Catholics.

I grew up Catholic in South Carolina, in the 60’s, and I can tell you exactly how anti Catholic most pentecostal and evangelical denominations were toward us. We’re still a small percentage of the population, roughly 125,000 in a state of 4.5 million. While the open disdain is much less, and the Clergy seem to have good relationships, in the rural areas attitudes are much as they were in the 60’s. Much of the growth in the Diocese has been due to northern migration, and that has also been a hindrance. Old prejudices die slowly. As this ecumenism goes forward I hope that the Church will not turn into a homogenized shell of what she once was. I have seen this play out in parishes here. True ecumenical outreach should be to bring the separated brethren into the fullness of Catholic Tradition, not a watered down quasi protestant version that sacrifices our heritage for the sake of a false sense of unity.

 

[Miserissima]

My take on the video and its response wasn’t as kind as others saw it. It’s taken me a couple of days to figure out why.
When the audience had to be pumped up to be receptive to the video message and some still weren’t very responsive at the end, I caught the same vibe of reservation and doubt that I have.

In his response, Mr. Copeland had to open with grandstanding of, “Look at my peeps!” * This was to demonstrate that Francis leads an institution while Mr. Copeland leads and connects with his people.

The movement leader went on to quote chapter and verse to the Holy Father in response to the Pope’s reference to scripture. It looked like Catholics don’t read the Bible because the Pope didn’t quote chapter and verse.

I heard the Pope speak in Italian, a “language of the heart,” (which also could have been a political move to limit misunderstandings, especially when speaking poetically). So Mr. Copeland “one-ups” the Pope by speaking in Tongues, the “language of the Angels.”

By not praying in Tongues like a Catholic with a fuller contextual understanding of 1 Cor 13, where is the interpreter? Tell me that one person in that assembly hasn’t received the Gift of Interpretation? Then the good intent of the movement leader became a clashing cymbal.

Oh, and blessing the Pope with Mark 11:24 (simplistic prosperity theology) is where I rolled my eyes. Not to say, “how dare you bless the Pope,” but to think how far apart our theologies actually are.

I suppose all Mr. Copeland can do is plant a seed. Same for Pope Francis. As another poster responded, “baby steps.”*

 

[trevorhall]

I watched the 45 minute video on YouTube. I will simply say it is amazing that Pope Francis was broadcast in that congregation. The Holy Spirit is moving heavily, indeed.

 

[Taurks]

The Charismatic friends which I have are younger and don’t have any anti-Catholic bias that I’ve seen. A few of them have even been to a Catholic Mass, and their only complaint was that the people didn’t seem lively enough. One of their older Bible-study leaders has some reservations, but they are nothing serious. He was also raised a Southern Baptist when he grew up in the 70s, so it might be something left over from that time.

In general, the old “Catholicism is the devil’s work and the Pope is the antichrist” stance is definitely on the way out. Occasionally you will still hear it in the Bible Belt, but only in certain pockets and by certain people (like Baptist missionaries). Old beliefs die hard.

I actually had a different interpretation than Miserissima about KC’s response. I could always be wrong. To me he seemed genuine, especially with his first words being, “Well the man asked us to pray for him!” and inviting everyone to stand in prayer. That attentiveness to the needs of another person (I hope) signals genuine good will. Perhaps he prayed a different way than we’re used to, but then again, he’s of a different church with different traditions, so I don’t know what’s considered normal to him. Again, I have no idea. Just a thought.

And of course hats off to the Pope. Hopefully his witness of warmheartedness and caring will bring us closer together, as love tends to do

 

[DaveBj]

snip

I actually had a different interpretation than Miserissima about KC’s response. I could always be wrong. To me he seemed genuine, especially with his first words being, “Well the man asked us to pray for him!” and inviting everyone to stand in prayer. That attentiveness to the needs of another person (I hope) signals genuine good will. Perhaps he prayed a different way than we’re used to, but then again, he’s of a different church with different traditions, so I don’t know what’s considered normal to him. Again, I have no idea. Just a thought.

Back in my Protestant days my wandering orbit swung through the gravitational field of Kenneth Copeland Ministries more than once, to the point of recording and re-listening to his TV broadcasts and attending one of his conferences in person. I can tell you that his response to the Pope’s message was absolutely normal for him. I do believe he was a little floored to have gotten a video message from the Pope; at least his actions seem to convey that impression.

And of course hats off to the Pope. Hopefully his witness of warmheartedness and caring will bring us closer together, as love tends to do

 

[Miserissima]

I actually had a different interpretation than Miserissima about KC’s response. I could always be wrong. To me he seemed genuine, especially with his first words being, “Well the man asked us to pray for him!” and inviting everyone to stand in prayer. That attentiveness to the needs of another person (I hope) signals genuine good will. Perhaps he prayed a different way than we’re used to, but then again, he’s of a different church with different traditions, so I don’t know what’s considered normal to him. Again, I have no idea. Just a thought.

Thanks for the response…I may have been looking for a bias, and based on Bishop Tony’s misunderstandings of Catholicism…a tad defensive.

A few of them have even been to a Catholic Mass, and their only complaint was that the people didn’t seem lively enough.

My friends complain about the “Catholic gymnastics” of siting, kneeling, standing." I haven’t taken anyone to Divine Liturgy yet, though!

 

[Taurks]

My friends complain about the “Catholic gymnastics” of siting, kneeling, standing." I haven’t taken anyone to Divine Liturgy yet, though!

Of course - there is more “change of position” in the Catholic liturgy - Ours is just a bunch of standing for the most part

 

[CreekCrawler]

Kenneth Copeland ??? LOL Wow.
I truly wish the Pope hadn’t done this. While I do believe all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no need to legitimize this “ministry” by addressing it.
Who’s next ? Binny Hinn ? Creflo Dollar ?

 

[CaptFun]

CaptFun responds in RED

I’m still digesting the video.Me too. I am glad that he spoke in Italian so there would be less analyzing of words, looking for double meanings, and I’m glad that the Holy Father discussed brotherhood and unity. Ditto my first comment.

But: Kenneth Copeland Ministries isn’t a church, it’s a movement. It continues to encourage people to reject the Eucharist, Sacred Tradition…and even causes its members to say that Catholics aren’t Christians. Not apparently at this recent gathering does he seem to say anything about the Eucharist or Sacred Tradition. From the pulpit of his “church” a guest Bishop declares "we are all Catholics now, preaches boldly on Christian unity, cites Jesus Himself praying for it … and presenting the Pope Himself addressing the group on the subject of Christ-willed unity.

So, as I digest the video, so far, (without perhaps your knowledge of the Copeland Ministry’s past or views on Catholicism) I am encouraged.

Luke 9:49 Then John said in reply, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow in our company.”

 

[Miserissima]

Kenneth Copeland ??? LOL Wow.
I truly wish the Pope hadn’t done this. While I do believe all Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no need to legitimize this “ministry” by addressing it.
Who’s next ? Binny Hinn ? Creflo Dollar ?

That’s why I had a difficult time taking it seriously, but the international ministry / movement for unity really has gained legs.

Perhaps this was another way for Francis to each out to the common man (like the impromptu phone calls and letters he writes) and was meant to be a private message.

 

[Megan7]

Link doesn’t work. Here’s one that does.

firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2014/02/we-know-pope-francis

Thanks, SH.

Thanks.

 

[Miserissima]

If we could just get the word put to correct Bishop Tony’s characterization of Catholics, of feel much better…as noted in the Patheos editorial…

The Pope spoke extemporaneously,.the response was politically motivated. Both were in the name of Jesus, sigh.

But thank you for encouraging me to be patient. Baby steps, baby steps…

 

[trevorhall]

I remain leery of the Copelands of the world. On the other hand, I was viciously hateful toward the Church before the Holy Spirit worked a miracle in my life through the election of Pope Benedict XVI. Prayers for all!

 

[Ignatius]

The Pentecostal response is here: youtube.com/watch?v=b5TwrG8B3ME.

Tony Palmer gives a lengthy introduction. The Pope’s video starts around 31 minutes. And the Pentecostal response begins around 38:44.

The video isn’t 38 min. it’s 22:43 min long.

 

[DaveBj]

The video isn’t 38 min. it’s 22:43 min long.

The video as originally posted was 45+ minutes long. Can’t find that version any more

 

[Miserissima]

The video as originally posted was 45+ minutes long. Can’t find that version any more

That is squirrley and I wonder what was edited out.

 

[DaveBj]

That is squirrley and I wonder what was edited out.

I watched the 45-minute version; I’ll check out the shorter version and get back to you this evening.