Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church

[oat_soda]

this is too good to be true! keep B16 in your prayers. i think the trindentine mass is a wonderful gift from the heart of the church.

how awesome is it to worship in the same language and much the same aesthetic
as did our ancestors for well over a thousand years.

in my opinion, there is nothing this side of heaven more transcendent and beautiful then the ancient roman rite in its entire splendor.

we are very fortunate to have had JPII and now B16 guiding the church during these tumultuous times. the new springtime is here.

 

[hosemonkey]

Charming…and charitable, this way of refering to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It’s attitudes like this that will keep me clinging to my “burrito.”

Glad you enjoyed my post,
With all respect,
you cling to your “burrito” and hope that the he who prepares the burrito know what he is doing. Too many of the free-lance “burritos” that we have eaten since VII have given the faithful heartburn. With the Latin Mass we have a proven recipe.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Glad you enjoyed my post,
With all respect,
you cling to your “burrito” and hope that the he who prepares the burrito know what he is doing. Too many of the free-lance “burritos” that we have eaten since VII have given the faithful heartburn. With the Latin Mass we have a proven recipe.

I know too many old Catholics who would disagree. But they don’t matter, I guess.

 

[jimmy]

Two things in the article seemed contradictory. One was that this is the Mass used for 1500 years and the other is that parts of the Mass date back to the 6th century. My question is: how far back did the TLM date since the last change? Any TLM fans have the answer? Thanks.

The TLM as a whole dates back to atleast Gregory the Great. There are parts that have changed through time. Like the Agnus Dei was added in the seventh century I think. But as a whole it is pretty much the same as it was in the sixth century.

 

[Tom317]

The TLM is NOT being brought back by the Pope, it never went anywhere. He is merely trying to extend and olive branch to those who have broken from Rome. Latin is not likely to be the main Mass of parishes in the United States, though I would personally love to see that happen, it just is not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Many of us that like the TLM have never broken from Rome.

 

[hosemonkey]

The TLM is NOT being brought back by the Pope, it never went anywhere. He is merely trying to extend and olive branch to those who have broken from Rome. Latin is not likely to be the main Mass of parishes in the United States, though I would personally love to see that happen, it just is not going to happen anytime soon.

Tom, I agree with you. TLM is not just a Mass, it is a whole different outlook and a whole different way of doing things. Everything from dress to devotions is different. Different behaviour in church(silence, no jibberjabber) No lay people in the sanctuary, different altar, different vestments, missals etc. etc. etc. Those of us who love it will have no problems, those of us who are willing to experience it, ditto. Those who cannot make the stretch will resist it. Is it devisive?
No, merely a matter of preference. I just hope that the U.S. bishops will allow us our preference. They are so anxious to accomodate “multiculturalism” They will accomodate Africans, Aztecs, jazz, gays, polkas and clowns, surely they will allow us to practice our “culture” as well. A universal indult will also take a lot of the wind out of the sails of the SSPX and others. If their so-called main objection to return to Rome is that indult, then we’ll see if they are flying their true colors, or will it be something else?

 

[Eireann]

So the 100 years are over, thanks be to God.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Many of us that like the TLM have never broken from Rome.

And your fidelity is a blessing to all the Church.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I just came across this thread. The Latin Mass that divided the Church? Huh? I guess I’m just an old geezer but when I was a kid back in the Dark Ages of the late 50s, early 60s, Mass was in Latin. And, contrary to popular belief today, yes, the congregation did understand what was going on. I certainly did - I made my First Communion in 1957 and was able to participate with my “little” missal. I was an altar boy from 1959 on and was able to participate with the printed cards we altar boys had at the foot of the altar. I was confirmed in 1963 and got my “big” missal - you know, that 1962 version everyone talks about.

The division came AFTER we went throught the period of the hybrid Mass in the mid 60s and transitioned to the NO in the vernacular in the late 60s. Hey, I was alive and an altar boy through the entire period. By 1967 when I was senior altar boy for my parish and we consecrated our new church, there wasn’t a word of Latin to be heard - although I did kiss the archbishop’s ring - another pious practice long gone.

I respectfully submit to you, my brothers and sisters, that I could go to Mass anywhere on the face of this earth in 1964 and be able to fully participate in Mass in Latin. I couldn’t do it today unless it was a TLM. I am a member of a very reverent NO cathedral parish. I sang in our choir for 18 years. It was an uphill battle in the 80s to re-introduce chant, Latin motets, or even the simple grace of being able to chant the Sequences in Latin. But by the mid 90s we even had the congregation chanting the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei during Lent in Latin and, you know what? My kids who are now 20 somethings got exposure to their ancient Catholic past. Latin was a unifying force not a divisive one.

 

[Ridgerunner]

. And, contrary to popular belief today, yes, the congregation did understand what was going on. . Latin was a unifying force not a divisive one.

I agree with the first statement. Contrary to the mythology of the “spirit of Vatican II” folks, there was no way people didn’t understand the Latin, unless they simply paid no attention at Mass. I certainly did, and if, in some liturgy or other, there was something I didn’t understand fully, the missal always had the English opposite the Latin. As altar boys, we were required to know all of the responses, by heart, in Latin and to know what they were in English. Though the girls did not serve Mass, they were required to respond to the congregational responses and to learn the Latin hymns and to know what they were in English. I doubt they knew the “Altar boy” responses as well as we boys did, but I know they knew a lot of them just from hearing them.

As to the second statement, I agree with it as well. We now have the unedifying spectacle in so many places of “Anglo” Masses and “Hispanic” Masses, with segregation pretty much total, dictated by language. I don’t go to the Hispanic Mass because I don’t understand Spanish. I have tried to pick it up, and have picked up a little, but nowhere near as much as I picked up of the Latin. Hispanics don’t go to the “Anglo” Mass because they don’t understand English. If it was in Latin, we would both understand and could attend the same Masses. Since Church liberals are not too keen on requiring Hispanics to learn English, I guess they, like George Wallace, believe in “Segregation Forever”.

 

[MikeDunphy]

A useful source for the latest news is the Rorate Caeli blog. The writers there read what the Italian and French newspapers are saying, and summarize the information, with links. The blog had posts on making the traditional Mass more available on October 2nd, 7th, 11th, and 12th.

However, I don’t think there is much information available at the moment beyond what plh posted in #2, above.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I agree with the first statement. Contrary to the mythology of the “spirit of Vatican II” folks, there was no way people didn’t understand the Latin, unless they simply paid no attention at Mass. I certainly did, and if, in some liturgy or other, there was something I didn’t understand fully, the missal always had the English opposite the Latin. As altar boys, we were required to know all of the responses, by heart, in Latin and to know what they were in English. Though the girls did not serve Mass, they were required to respond to the congregational responses and to learn the Latin hymns and to know what they were in English. I doubt they knew the “Altar boy” responses as well as we boys did, but I know they knew a lot of them just from hearing them.

As to the second statement, I agree with it as well. We now have the unedifying spectacle in so many places of “Anglo” Masses and “Hispanic” Masses, with segregation pretty much total, dictated by language. I don’t go to the Hispanic Mass because I don’t understand Spanish. I have tried to pick it up, and have picked up a little, but nowhere near as much as I picked up of the Latin. Hispanics don’t go to the “Anglo” Mass because they don’t understand English. If it was in Latin, we would both understand and could attend the same Masses. Since Church liberals are not too keen on requiring Hispanics to learn English, I guess they, like George Wallace, believe in “Segregation Forever”.

Some of us who like the vernacular Mass are hardly liberal. And I rather imagine that instead of us all attending the Latin mass where “we would both understand,” we’d all just be standing/kneeling/sitting there NOT understanding much of it.

 

[hosemonkey]

I just came across this thread. The Latin Mass that divided the Church? Huh? I guess I’m just an old geezer but when I was a kid back in the Dark Ages of the late 50s, early 60s, Mass was in Latin. And, contrary to popular belief today, yes, the congregation did understand what was going on. I certainly did - I made my First Communion in 1957 and was able to participate with my “little” missal. I was an altar boy from 1959 on and was able to participate with the printed cards we altar boys had at the foot of the altar. I was confirmed in 1963 and got my “big” missal - you know, that 1962 version everyone talks about.

The division came AFTER we went throught the period of the hybrid Mass in the mid 60s and transitioned to the NO in the vernacular in the late 60s. Hey, I was alive and an altar boy through the entire period. By 1967 when I was senior altar boy for my parish and we consecrated our new church, there wasn’t a word of Latin to be heard - although I did kiss the archbishop’s ring - another pious practice long gone.

I respectfully submit to you, my brothers and sisters, that I could go to Mass anywhere on the face of this earth in 1964 and be able to fully participate in Mass in Latin. I couldn’t do it today unless it was a TLM. I am a member of a very reverent NO cathedral parish. I sang in our choir for 18 years. It was an uphill battle in the 80s to re-introduce chant, Latin motets, or even the simple grace of being able to chant the Sequences in Latin. But by the mid 90s we even had the congregation chanting the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei during Lent in Latin and, you know what? My kids who are now 20 somethings got exposure to their ancient Catholic past. Latin was a unifying force not a divisive one.

Yup, Brotherolf, you are exactly correct. I traveled all over Asia pre-Vatican II when I was in the Navy, and no matter where I attended Mass, I knew exactly what was going on. Now, the announcements might be in Japanese or Chinese or Tagalog or Malay, but as far as the Mass was concerned, we were all on the same page of our various-languaged missals. The culture of the people was expressed in their dress and in their faces, but most of all in their common Catholicity. Nobody was whining about “inclusiveness” or why they could not hear Mass in Spanish or Chinese or Urdu or whatever. You say “inclusivity ?” Hear the Mass in Latin, follow your missal and EVERYBODY is included.
Laissez le Bon Temps Rouler, Brotherolf!

 

[captaincoog]

If the TLM became more wide spread (please God), and a number of parish priests were willing and able to introduce it as one of the Sunday Masses, there would also need to be servers to say the responses. I would love to learn the responses and serve at this Mass if it were introduced in my parish (the priest knows the Latin) but I am unsure if it is restricted to unmarried men. I am married and have 3 children. Does anyone know if this is a barrier to serving? I also wonder what would happen if a lady wanted to serve at a Latin Mass?
And, what would the FSSP do with themselves if they were no longer the main society of priests of the TLM?

 

[Trident59]

I certainly agree that Brother Rolf and Ridgerunner have the correct insight. But JKirk is SO nice in his condescending comments.

I can find only one time where I agreed with him
(the Gather Us in thread). And, yes, I know many older folks that like the NO but I’m not one of them.

Most Traditionalists don’t care if the NO folks continue with their mass. Just make room for the Trads and leave us alone.

Most people are completely uninformed about their faith. I talked to an older lady in her late 70’s that didn’t know that the Latin Mass could still be said. She thought I was feeding her a line until the local priest backed me up.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I certainly agree that Brother Rolf and Ridgerunner have the correct insight. But JKirk is SO nice in his condescending comments.

I can find only one time where I agreed with him
(the Gather Us in thread). And, yes, I know many older folks that like the NO but I’m not one of them.

Most Traditionalists don’t care if the NO folks continue with their mass. Just make room for the Trads and leave us alone.

Most people are completely uninformed about their faith. I talked to an older lady in her late 70’s that didn’t know that the Latin Mass could still be said. She thought I was feeding her a line until the local priest backed me up.

I’m truly sorry if you find my remarks condescending. I didn’t intend to sound that way at all. I can’t forbear, however, to point out something in your remarks that I’ve found troubling all along in the debate of TLM vs.NO. “Most Traditionalists don’t care if the NO folks continue with their mass. Just make room for the Trads and leave us alone.” This is alarming, to me at least, and sad…
“my Mass” vs. “your Mass.”

 

[Vidi_Aquam]

This is ridiculously alarmist. He is just extending an indult already issued by Pope John Paul II. Tridentine masses performed under indult have already been happening for years, and are old news, and it’s not like anyone’s throwing the Novus Ordo out of the window.

Media. Sheesh.

How a Church so in love with tradition could butcher their liturgy and call it “New Order” but still claim it is in harmony with the way the Mass was celebrated for a thousand years is beyond me.

Maybe the Pope hasnt thrown the NO out of the window but we ought to leave the window open just in case some later Popes like the fresh air…

 

[brotherhrolf]

Merci. I am of Cajun descent.

I don’t know if I would call myself a strict Traditionalist. There is an indult parish here but my family is a member of our cathedral parish which I think I described as very reverent. One of the most shocking things I ever witnessed in my life was at the Mass which was celebrated for our 200th anniversary in 1992. We had the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyon, France officiating with the Archbishop of Salamanca, Spain present along with the Archbishops of New Orleans (one was retired) and all of the other bishops from Louisiana in attendance. The cardinal concluded the Mass (which had some parts in French and Spanish in honor of our ancestors) with the apostolic blessing chanted in Latin. This was not expected. Of the 25 member choir, there were about 5 of us who could respond appropriately. In the congregation of around 1,000 there were about 25 or 30. Thank “le Bon Dieu” that there were about 10 priests in attendance as well who could respond. This was terribly shocking to me that so many could not respond because they did not recognize it. And it is sad. Just thirty years earlier the congregation would have been able to respond to the good cardinal (who btw did not speak English) correctly and in Latin. We should remember that “catholic” means universal and Latin was and still is a means to that universality.

Most of the papal masses televised on EWTN are in Latin. I don’t think one Latin Mass a month in a parish would be excessive and at least the congregation would get some exposure to our universal heritage.

 

[rlg94086]

I don’t think the current Mass is officially titled the “New Order.” I believe the term *Novus Ordo *is used whenever the order of the Mass has been changed. IOW, I believe at one time the Tridentine Latin Mass was the *Novus Ordo. *

If followed properly, the Mass in the vernacular is also reverent and not a butchery of the liturgy. My understanding is that the intent was to return to the way Mass may have been said in the Early Church.

How a Church so in love with tradition could butcher their liturgy and call it “New Order” but still claim it is in harmony with the way the Mass was celebrated for a thousand years is beyond me.

Maybe the Pope hasnt thrown the NO out of the window but we ought to leave the window open just in case some later Popes like the fresh air…