Pope to Patriarch: We Need Unity Faster

[DelScorcho]

There’s already been a better answer to both of these questions than I could give, but I’ll still give it a shot.

1. When I say “Christian Unity,” I refer specifically to the unification of the Apostolic Churches.
2. I suppose “fight” was the wrong word. However, I do think that the fullness of truth lies in the Apostolic Churches and that the various protestant sects are in a state of great error. The unification of the Apostolic Churches would provide a great witness that might prompt those belonging to other denominations to rethink the idea of what it means to be a Christian.

God bless.

Fair enough… do you feel that protistants want to unify?

 

[jheii]

Fair enough… do you feel that protistants want to unify?

That would be asking me to speak for someone else, which I’m not qualified to do. I would certainly hope that protestants would share my desire for Christian unity, but I imagine that, due to different ecclesiology, their view of Christian unity would be different than mine. For instance, I met somebody throught a friend recently and the topic of religion came up. I told him I was Catholic, and his response was: “I’m Southern Baptist, but I think we need to stop saying ‘I’m Southern Baptist,’ ‘I’m Catholic,’ and all come together and start just saying ‘I’m Christian.’” While that would be nice, that’s also not what I mean when I say Christian unity.

God bless.

 

[DelScorcho]

That would be asking me to speak for someone else, which I’m not qualified to do. I would certainly hope that protestants would share my desire for Christian unity, but I imagine that, due to different ecclesiology, their view of Christian unity would be different than mine. For instance, I met somebody throught a friend recently and the topic of religion came up. I told him I was Catholic, and his response was: “I’m Southern Baptist, but I think we need to stop saying ‘I’m Southern Baptist,’ ‘I’m Catholic,’ and all come together and start just saying ‘I’m Christian.’” While that would be nice, that’s also not what I mean when I say Christian unity.

God bless.

I have a feeling that the “Christian Unity” the Pope is promoting is for protestants to convert to Catholicism.

 

[Peter_J]

I have a feeling that the “Christian Unity” the Pope is promoting is for protestants to convert to Catholicism.

That’s understandable, but not really correct. As Unitatis Redintegratio (the Decree on Ecumenism) tells us:

However, it is evident that, when individuals wish for full Catholic communion, their preparation and reconciliation is an undertaking which of its nature is distinct from ecumenical action. But there is no opposition between the two, since both proceed from the marvelous ways of God.

 

[DelScorcho]

That’s understandable, but not really correct. As Unitatis Redintegratio (the Decree on Ecumenism) tells us:

So the Catholic Church would change some of it’s positions to align with the other religion that it was merging with?

 

[TomaszA]

God willing Christendom will be reunited again!

I think the more non-Catholic Christians understand the Faith, and the more they realize they don’t have to be Roman to be Catholic, the more likely they are to re unite.

 

[DelScorcho]

God willing Christendom will be reunited again!

I think the more non-Catholic Christians understand the Faith, and the more they realize they don’t have to be Roman to be Catholic, the more likely they are to re unite.

One can unite without converting to the RCC?

 

[Peter_J]

So the Catholic Church would change some of it’s positions to align with the other religion that it was merging with?

Well, I guess that would depend on whom you ask. I’m Catholic, as you know, so it probably won’t surprize you that I believe that all of the Catholic Church’s doctrines are correct, and therefore have no need to be changed (leaving aside, of course, the question of how they be best expressed/explained).

On the other hand, if you ask that same question to an Eastern Orthodox Christian, the answer you will most likely hear is that, yes, some Catholic doctrines need to be changed.

 

[Peter_J]

One can unite without converting to the RCC?

The Eastern Catholic Churches (in full communion with Rome) are evidence that one can be in the “Roman Catholic Church” without being “Roman” (i.e. Latin).

 

[JonNC]

Well, I guess that would depend on whom you ask. I’m Catholic, as you know, so it probably won’t surprize you that I believe that all of the Catholic Church’s doctrines are correct, and therefore have no need to be changed (leaving aside, of course, the question of how they be best expressed/explained).

Peter, would you consider Transubstantiation, purgatory, and Justification in this catagory?

Jon

 

[DelScorcho]

Well, I guess that would depend on whom you ask. I’m Catholic, as you know, so it probably won’t surprize you that I believe that all of the Catholic Church’s doctrines are correct, and therefore have no need to be changed (leaving aside, of course, the question of how they be best expressed/explained).

On the other hand, if you ask that same question to an Eastern Orthodox Christian, the answer you will most likely hear is that, yes, some Catholic doctrines need to be changed.

Seems like a roadblock.

I honestly do not think it will happen.

 

[TomaszA]

One can unite without converting to the RCC?

Becoming Catholic doesn’t necessarily mean adopting the Roman rite.

 

[DelScorcho]

Becoming Catholic doesn’t necessarily mean adopting the Roman rite.

Really… that is interesting for this non-Catholic. What other rites are there?

 

[Hesychios]

Becoming Catholic doesn’t necessarily mean adopting the Roman rite.

I don’t think it makes much difference.

Every Catholic is mandated to affirm all of the theology of the Latin church. There are no exceptions so it hardly matters which “Rite” one joins if theology is the sticking point.

All of the Protestant churches derive from the Latin (Roman) church, and officially the Papacy only recognizes one rite in the west (the Latin). Somehow, any Protestant churches that want to reunify with Rome will probably be accomodated in the Latin church and rite.

A note to make here is that one does not join a Rite per se, one joins a Sui Iuris particular church, the largest by far being the latin. The other Particular churches use one rite or another out of the several non-Latin spiritual and liturgical traditions.

There is the [west] Syrian tradition, the Greek-Byzantine tradition, the Coptic (Egyptian, Ethiopian) tradition, the Armenian tradition and the East Syriac tradition. In most cases these Catholic groups are smaller versions of the local/regional Orthodox churches.

Some, like the Byzantines (Ukrainian Catholics, Ruthenian Catholics and Melkite Catholics, to name the larger ones), teach theology very nearly like the Orthodox Greeks and Russians. However they are forbidden to deny the newer additional Latin theological constructs such as Purgatory, Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope and Papal Infallibility as defined in 1870AD. I know some who do, but they are not supposed to, it is an excommunicatable ‘sin’ to deny these dogmas.

Anyone who has an interest in these other Catholic churches can read the eastern board here at CAF. Most people do not know about them because proportionally they are not very numerous or even obvious. They account for about 1.5 percent of the Catholic church and are often mistaken for Orthodox.

 

[Harpazo]

Really… that is interesting for this non-Catholic. What other rites are there?

Shlom lokh,

By “rites” TomaszA means traditions. The Church is composed of 6 traditions -

1. Latin
2. Antiochian
3. Constantinopolitan
4. Chaldean
5. Coptic
6. Armenian

I attend a Maronite Church, which is of the Antiochian tradition. In our Divine Liturgy we use Syriac, a dialect of the Aramaic Christ used. There are various sui iuris or self-governing Churches in union with the See of Rome believing all the same things, yet expressing them differently through their liturgies, devotions, etc.

Hope that helps!

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[TomaszA]

Really… that is interesting for this non-Catholic. What other rites are there?

Yes, and I agree that it is interesting.

Here is some more info: ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

 

[TomaszA]

Peace Hesychios,

I don’t think it makes much difference.

I think it does, it shows that the Church of God under Rome is trully capable of unifying most Christians of the world. For me to become a member of an Orthodox Church would require rejecting my own Western heritage and adopting Eastern norms. This is not true for yourself and other non-Catholic Christians when it comes to communion with the Pope.

Every Catholic is mandated to affirm all of the theology of the Latin church. There are no exceptions so it hardly matters which “Rite” one joins if theology is the sticking point.

This is not true. Many disagreements were mentioned at the unitive Councils, i.e. Florence. The Western Church accepted the Eastern rites uses of leavened bread, their rejection of fire in purgatory, and other issues that I can’t delve into because I don’t know enough!

If a genuine reunion were to take Councils would necessarily have to occur to discuss our differences. I understand, and certainly the Western Church understands that different tradtions and understandings have spawned from the deposit of faith. An adoption of dogma in your own understanding, in your own terms, and fitting your personal theology will have to take place, in my opinion.

But this is all wishful thinking as long as Christians are not really set on unifying.

All of the Protestant churches derive from the Latin (Roman) church, and officially the Papacy only recognizes one rite in the west (the Latin). Somehow, any Protestant churches that want to reunify with Rome will probably be accomodated in the Latin church and rite.

Again, this is not true.

The Roman rite itself is divided into an Extraordinary form and Ordinary form. Likewise the Church has accepted many movements from within her that have adopted certain practices resembling protestant forms of worship, such as the Charismatic movement.

When many Anglicans reunited with Rome the Church permitted the use of the Anglican rite.

Other forms of the Roman rite include: Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Bragan, Dominican, Carmelite, Carthusian.

All this proves the Latin Church’s acceptance of diversity, even within it’s own rite.

 

[DelScorcho]

Yes, and I agree that it is interesting.

Here is some more info: ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

Seriously, thanks for the info.

Is the push for reunification with protestants one-sided, or are protestants pushing for this too?

 

[TomaszA]

Seriously, thanks for the info.

Is the push for reunification with protestants one-sided, or are protestants pushing for this too?

It’s a dialogue, so it’s two sided, but not all Protestants (and non-Catholics for that matter) are pushing for it.

 

[DelScorcho]

It’s a dialogue, so it’s two sided, but not all Protestants (and non-Catholics for that matter) are pushing for it.

I haven’t heard of any protestants entertaining it… only maybe some orthodox Catholics.

Have you heard any different?