Pope Urges Church Not to Judge Sinners

[Soutane]

So, these were concealed for 20, 30 and even 50 years; I guess then in another 20, 30 or even 50 years we will be watching the sequel; because sadly, atleast one of the Bishops has refused to change the way things were done

But hey-ho, next time we could always blame the ‘outside experts’; we do that in a business environment all the time. Hire a bunch of consultants and then when things go pear-shaped, blame 'em and walk away whilst polishing ones halo

Or perhaps the Church does not recognise paedophilia as a ‘proper sin’ whilst homosexuality is a grave sin. Hang on, weren’t these male priests sodomising young boys against their will? Paedophilia, rape, homosexuality, and ofcourse, sex outside of marriage using condoms all rolled into one neat little package; oh dear, oh dear

But I missed one important point; these priests were sent in by the homosexuals to destroy the Church; problem solved; we can now blame the homosexuals and sleep tight; phew

They ARE homosexuals!They are not pedophiles.they are not molesting girls and toddlers and babies they are molesting young men and adolescent boys.They are predatory homosexual chickenhawks who sought refuge in the Church in the '50’s,'60’s and '70’s.Look at the victims.Some people are wilfully blind or they have a very transparent agenda.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Someone should tell those Catholics responsible for kicking a child out of school for the sins of their parents about this.

Some poster should try actually doing some serious reading about what Catholic schools are all about, and stop trying to repeatedly resurrect arguments that have already been comprehensively addressed, on those other threads: addressed by posters with experience in Catholic schools, addressed by various clergy, addressed by others in the Church.

No child was “kicked out of school for the sins of parents.” Rather, the entire child + phony-parent combo kicked themselves out of the intimate expectations of true (not manufactured, not redefined) family relationships and Church teaching, by enrolling in a school whose theology they were demonstrating in the current moment they were not representing.

And please:
(1) stop hijacking this thread because you’ve lost credibility on the other one;
(2) don’t tell us that “your personal knowledge” about Catholic school parents privately not in compliance with Catholic moral theology justifies a lesbian couple publicly not in compliance. As I’ve said several times in several posts, heterosexuals not in compliance are also subject to dismissal, and in my parish many such heterosexuals not in compliance have in fact been denied enrollment of a child. If particular schools in other jurisdictions are sloppy about enforcement, that has nothing to do with the Denver school being vigilant about enforcement in a public situation that brings public scandal universally to every other Catholic family in that school – not just to the busybody gossips overly intrigued by which straight couples might or might not be “living in sin.”

 

[Soutane]

Some poster should try actually doing some serious reading about what Catholic schools are all about, and stop trying to repeatedly resurrect arguments that have already been comprehensively addressed, on those other threads: addressed by posters with experience in Catholic schools, addressed by various clergy, addressed by others in the Church.

No child was “kicked out of school for the sins of parents.” Rather, the entire child + phony-parent combo kicked themselves out of the intimate expectations of true (not manufactured, not redefined) family relationships and Church teaching, by enrolling in a school whose theology they were demonstrating in the current moment they were not representing.

And please:
(1) stop hijacking this thread because you’ve lost credibility on the other one;
(2) don’t tell us that “your personal knowledge” about Catholic school parents privately not in compliance with Catholic moral theology justifies a lesbian couple publicly not in compliance. As I’ve said several times in several posts, heterosexuals not in compliance are also subject to dismissal, and in my parish many such heterosexuals not in compliance have in fact been denied enrollment of a child. If particular schools in other jurisdictions are sloppy about enforcement, that has nothing to do with the Denver school being vigilant about enforcement in a public situation that brings public scandal universally to every other Catholic family in that school – not just to the busybody gossips overly intrigued by which straight couples might or might not be “living in sin.”

Bravo Elizabeth.The poster is a broken record and puts forth repeatedly defeated arguements in any thread attacking the Church and/or It’s priests.It’s completely a kneejerk response from someone with a transparent agenda.I’m surprised everyone hasn’t simply put him on ignore because his arguementation is tiresome,predictable and fallacious.When he’s crushed in one thread he abandons it and jumps to a similar one and trots out the same anti-church mantra.He commits the greatest sin of all on these fora he’s BORING.

 

[silentstar]

They ARE homosexuals!They are not pedophiles.they are not molesting girls and toddlers and babies they are molesting young men and adolescent boys.They are predatory homosexual chickenhawks who sought refuge in the Church in the '50’s,'60’s and '70’s.Look at the victims.Some people are wilfully blind or they have a very transparent agenda.

Not entirely true. I am female and was abused by two priests, one when I was 7 (he was staying overnight in our house) and the other one when I was 12 (he had serious psychological problems and abused me b/c he thought I was “bad” based on something I said).

From what I understand, for instance as stated in the book Sacrilege, 19% of the victims were female, and it is possible that more girls were abused than that but have not come forward b/c this became thought of as a teenage male issue.

Most of the victims were teenage males but not all of them. There were some girls and some young children.

 

[Marie5890]

These are sinners but also criminals which should be booted out and go to prison. I have supported the church for over 55 years but now I will not give another dime to an organization which cannot do what is right for the sin of the clergy. It appears the church is pro life before you are born but your on your own once you get here.

You do realize that the Gospel for this past Sunday was about the woman taken in adultery,right?

Since when is it unusal for any Pope not to talk about the Gospel reading of the day when he is giving his Sunday address??

Me thinks you just dont realize what he was doing is what he always does on Sundays. He talks about the readings of the day…

 

[Marie5890]

Since I think it was a homily, I don’t think he really had a choice.

Thank you!

John 8:1-11 was Sunday’s Gospel reading (Cycle C)

Me thinks people didnt attend Mass this past weekend if they didnt realize that his homily, like all of his Sunday addresses, are based on the readings .

Oy.

 

[rlg94086]

From what I understand, for instance as stated in the book Sacrilege, 19% of the victims were female, and it is possible that more girls were abused than that but have not come forward b/c this became thought of as a teenage male issue.

Most of the victims were teenage males but not all of them. There were some girls and some young children.

The media has not presented it as a “teenage male issue.” Thank you for point out agreement with the fact that is was predominantly teenage male issue, as this does counter the charges of pedophilia in a majority of the cases. This would lead people to believe it is a predominantly gay, hebophilia problem.

I’m sorry for your experience, but your case was a small minority of a small minority of priests.

 

[Soutane]

The media has not presented it as a “teenage male issue.” Thank you for point out agreement with the fact that is was predominantly teenage male issue, as this does counter the charges of pedophilia in a majority of the cases. This would lead people to believe it is a predominantly gay, hebophilia problem.

I’m sorry for your experience, but your case was a small minority of a small minority of priests.

Tuesday March 23, 2010
PUSH FOR CELIBACY IMPLIES GAY GUILT

March 23, 2010

Catholic League president Bill Donohue addresses the spate of articles on priestly celibacy:

Reports in Ireland and Germany of decades-old cases of priestly sexual abuse have triggered an array of articles, surveys and talk-show discussions on the need for the Catholic Church to end the celibacy requirement. The implication, of course, is that more heterosexuals, and less homosexuals, would therefore be drawn to the priesthood, thus alleviating the problem.

The reasoning is sound: as we have seen from several studies—including the one just released by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops—80 percent of the victims are male. Just as important, the majority of the victims are post-pubescent. In other words, we are talking about homosexuality, not pedophilia.

Those who fancy themselves progressive would never, of course, say there is a homosexual link to priestly sexual abuse. But they know it to be true in their heart of hearts. For example, no one seriously believes that pedophiles would be inclined to marry if celibacy were lifted—they are not interested in adults. But surely homosexuals would find the seminaries and parishes less attractive if most of the men were married.

So as not to be misunderstood, it is nonsense to say that homosexuality causes sexual abuse. Moreover, it is both untrue, and unfair, to say that most gay priests are molesters. They are not. But it is also true that most of the molesters are gay. Is this not the unstated predicate of progressives pushing for an end to celibacy? Why else recommend doing away with it?

In short, the only difference between most progressives and most conservatives on this issue is that the latter are not afraid to identify the elephant in the room.

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[IgnatiusJReilly]

As a Catholic father, here is what this cover up tendency says to me. If, God forbid, some clergy (or any other figure) dares to lay hands on my kids, I’m going to the cops first. I encourage all other parents to take the same approach. Do not go to your bishop or any other Church official if you find out your kid is a victim in something like this. Do not let them persuade you. Do not give these guys the chance to cover up. The first they should know about the fact that their cover is blown should be when the cops are slapping the cuffs on them. Then, let the guys in the prisons administer appropriate justice and pray that these folks repent.

This, my friends, is the most charitable approach to the situation. Sometimes love has to be tough.

For me, the authority of the Catholic Church ends at faith and morals. I have absolutely no qualms about sending a priest up the river if he dares try to pull something like this with my family.

 

[Father_of_9]

We need to “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give to God what belongs to God”. In other words, if anyone, priest or otherwise, abuses a child they must be reported to the appropriate civil authorities and face the legal consequences for their actions. Likewise, we should give our prayers to God for both the victim and the abuser since they both need God’s help. We must judge sinful actions, but not a person’s worthiness of salvation.

 

[Soutane]

9

We need to “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give to God what belongs to God”. In other words, if anyone, priest or otherwise, abuses a child they must be reported to the appropriate civil authorities and face the legal consequences for their actions. Likewise, we should give our prayers to God for both the victim and the abuser since they both need God’s help. We must judge sinful actions, but not a person’s worthiness of salvation.

You are absolutely correct but it seems to get worse daily and it has been for years.I an sick of these rabid wolves amongst the fock and our Bishops not dealing ruthlessly with this problem.I want someone to start kickking behindsde fefrocking these pathetic creatures and sending then to prison and throwing then under the jail.When these Chosen men who betrayed their call to Christ are punished and erased from the Church and society the 97% of our Holy priests can walk the sreets of any city in their collars and not fear for their dignity and their lives.

 

[Feathers]

The Pope asked us not to judge sinners yet it seems we have no problem judging any priest accused of child abuse.

I think the Pope was asking us to put ourselves in the shoes of those who accused the woman caught in adultery and were preparing to stone her.

Adultery - not quite the same as child sex abuse now is it. Is there any father here who would not gladly strangle a priest if he knew he had abused his underage daughter?
Is there any father here who would not gladly take it outside with a priest if he knew he had slept with his overage daughter?

I’m with IgnatiusJReilly on this to a point - go to the authorities first. Report it to the police and hope the police take it on as a criminal case first.
I think one of the issues in Ireland was that some cases were brought to the attention of the police and the police went to the bishop. Not clever if that’s what did happen.

There are two reasons for going to the police in the first instance -

1. As soon as the accused is off the streets it keeps me from committing murder or worse.
2. if convicted there is a good chance that worse will be visited upon the convicted in prison.

You may go to the Church authorities in the second instance if to do nothing more than vent ones spleen.

But back on point - adultery is no longer a crime. Some no longer see it as a sin. Indeed there are many things that are forbidden by the 10 Commandments that are no longer deemed to be sinful in modern secular society.
In fact most non-marital sex that does not involve animals and children is no longer a crime. (is this why actors never want to work with children or animals? just kidding)
Fornication is not a crime and some priests encourage it under the pretext that if you’re planning to marry the person it’s ok. What if the engagement breaks up?
Pornography is, if not a crime, available almost everywhere in the world and legally in some places. In others it is a significant part of GDP and if it were made illegal could cause an economic collapse. Some priests see it as “educational” particularly in areas where the chances of a teenager getting any form of decent sex education is minimal.
Prostitution is or isn’t a crime depending on where you are. In some counties (Sweden, Norway, Iceland - once homes to Viking pillagers and possible rapists) it is only a crime if you “visit” a prostitute.

To be honest I would rather see a world without pornography than a world without prostitution but that’s a different story (cf. St Augustine). I think I could rephrase that as I would rather see a world without sin than a world without sinners. (memo to self - don’t think too hard on that one, snakes don’t often eat their own tails)

So we do not judge the sinner. There be consequences if we do.

We could however ask ourselves how the sinner got into such a state. What is it that brought that person to that place? Demonic possession, rampant pornography, unhealthy attitudes to sex and sexuality, repression? And not for the sake of puerile entertainment or to be an armchair psychiatrist, but to say to ourselves “There but for the grace of God go I”.
We know in our hearts if we ever could have become one like them. We also know why we could not.

Pray for us sinners - and that includes all of us - pedophile priests included.

 

[IgnatiusJReilly]

Pray for us sinners - and that includes all of us - pedophile priests included.

Yes. I hope those predators do repent and are eventually forgiven. I hope they ultimately come back to God and enter the Beatific Vision.

However, I no longer trust the Church hierarchy. They have proven beyond a doubt that they are not worthy of my trust - ESPECIALLY when it comes to my children.

Til this moment, my family was active in parish life. PSR, choir, KofC, etc. As of now, I am strongly considering quitting the Knights because I don’t want a dime of my money to support the hypocritical hierarchy that shielded these perverts FOR YEARS. I do not want to cooperate with intrinsic moral evil. I am also not tithing to the parish anymore. From now on, we will tithe to specific charities and organizations that we trust will do good in the world.

As of today, I am a minimalist Catholic. The Church hierarchy has left me no option. It makes me heart sick because I love Christ and His Church, but there is nothing else my conscience will let me do.

 

[tweetymom]

Not entirely true. I am female and was abused by two priests, one when I was 7 (he was staying overnight in our house) and the other one when I was 12 (he had serious psychological problems and abused me b/c he thought I was “bad” based on something I said).

From what I understand, for instance as stated in the book Sacrilege, 19% of the victims were female, and it is possible that more girls were abused than that but have not come forward b/c this became thought of as a teenage male issue.

Most of the victims were teenage males but not all of them. There were some girls and some young children.

Sorry star and my prayers.I along with you have been there done that. God Bless you dear.

 

[Feathers]

As of today, I am a minimalist Catholic. The Church hierarchy has left me no option. It makes me heart sick because I love Christ and His Church, but there is nothing else my conscience will let me do.

I am sorry you feel that way but I can appreciate it.

It is now that the Church needs our support - If we walk away now the opposite power and those that oppose the Church are winning.

We can be cautious. We can listen out for the voice of the Holy Spirit when dealing with the clergy or anyone we trust to our childrens care. Our children may not tell us vocally but any sudden change in their behavior is an indicator that something is amiss.

Please also remember that the Church is not the only place these things can happen. It could be in school, in a sports club, in a music club, it could be a babysitter or tutor. It could be anyone that is granted a position of trust and authority. It could even be just a slightly older child, possibly recently abused themselves.

The Church is getting it in the neck as much because they are the Church, and the Catholic Church at that, as well as the accusations of a cover-up.

We have as much to learn form this as the Church has.

Hindsight is brilliant but it’s what we do in the future that redeems us.

 

[whatevergirl]

Although he didn’t specifically mention the priest scandal, coming so close on the heels of his statement about the Irish Scandal, it’s natural to assume he was thinking of the scandal when he made his Sunday address.

If he didn’t want the two statements to have nothing at all to do with each other, he should have chosen another topic for Sunday.

I was born and have lived in the Boston area all my life. The ‘priest scandal’ here had the impact of an atomic bomb. For years afterward, it still came up as a topic in the news and was talked about among the Church faithful. The impact is NOT over. Boston, still being a very Irish City has been following what’s going on in Ireland with disgust. Our wounds are still raw and the Irish situation just rubs them rawer.

I had attended one of the Boston Area churches where a priest had molested some young boys. I also knew of other churches where priests had done the same thing. I don’t have the words to express how shocking this was, especially when we learned molesting priests had been transferred from parish to parish.

The worst thing for all of us was the church hierarchy knowing about incidents and allowing this to go on. People left the Catholic Church. Some felt so betrayed by God, I don’t know if they go to any church anywhere.

We, in Boston, were assured that procedures were being put into place so that priests who were pedophiles would be dealt with and not passed around from one parish to another. The Church would advocate for the victim(s), instead of protecting the priests.

I can’t believe, so long after the revelations in Boston, that we are hearing about scandals in Ireland (among other places)!

Wasn’t Boston enough?!? Did they believe it was just something unique about Boston so there was no need to investigate anywhere else?

I believed Pope JPII really understood the terrible impact clergy abuse had had in the Church. I believed he took steps and was taking more steps to root this out in other dioceses.

I must confess that Benedict’s Sunday address, following so closely on the heels of his remarks to Ireland, doesn’t encourage me that he gets it.

Of course we must forgive those priests, or anyone else, who get caught up in sin. We must pray for them. I don’t want to see them whipped through the street! But, I don’t want child molesters and their enablers to continue on in the Church as if nothing has happened.

I DO want MORE assurances from our Holy Father that priests, monsignors, bishops, etc. will be dealt with if they are found to be molesting children, or if they stand against Church policy about reporting molesting clergy! Getting a ‘bad talking to’ is not the complete way to deal with such people.

Get child molesters far far away from children! For those who look the other way at such behavior - get these people out of the Church altogether.

Amen to this…I agree. (bolded for emphasis, mine)

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes. I hope those predators do repent and are eventually forgiven. I hope they ultimately come back to God and enter the Beatific Vision.

However, I no longer trust the Church hierarchy. They have proven beyond a doubt that they are not worthy of my trust - ESPECIALLY when it comes to my children.

Til this moment, my family was active in parish life. PSR, choir, KofC, etc. As of now, I am strongly considering quitting the Knights because I don’t want a dime of my money to support the hypocritical hierarchy that shielded these perverts FOR YEARS. I do not want to cooperate with intrinsic moral evil. I am also not tithing to the parish anymore. From now on, we will tithe to specific charities and organizations that we trust will do good in the world.

As of today, I am a minimalist Catholic. The Church hierarchy has left me no option. It makes me heart sick because I love Christ and His Church, but there is nothing else my conscience will let me do.

so, you decided to punish God because of the bad apples in His Church?