Pope weighing changes in Novus Ordo

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Crumpy said:
I just realized that unless the name of Jesus is mentioned in the gospel or epistle readings, the name is not otherwise uttered during the Mass.

Isn’t this odd?
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It is usually mentioned in the collects…“through Jesus Christ, His Son”…or other things to that effect. The prayer of the Mass is addressed to the Father. The priests stands in Persona Christi so it is Jesus praying to His Father throught the power of the HS. The priest is praying in His name so there is no need to mention the name.
 
If the rumor is true, and the Roman church proceeds to delete the vernacular, many of the Eastern Churches will still provide liturgies in the vernacular, as has been the way in the Eastern Churches since the earliest years of the Church.

People need to understand, most especially the Credo & Confeitor, when they profess & confess.

This could be exactly what the eastern churches need for true revitalization! 👍
 
ProVobis said:
The introduction of** priest facing the people** came about prior to Vatican II, so I’ve been told. But the point I was trying to make was that it, for whatever reason and not that I’m in favor of it, has become a custom and there is a canon law (I forget which one) which states that custom is effectively the tie breaker in case of any disputes.
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And the current custom is??? 🙂
 
This sounds like very good news!

As a non-Catholic who has always had a great respect for tradition in religion (any religion!), and also a great love for the Latin language as well, I had hoped that Cardinal Ratzinger would be named Pope, partly because I felt if any man could or would try to restore some of “the old ways” to Catholicism, including more Latin, it would be him.

What else can I say but Deo gratias! 👍
 
Aramis said:
If the rumor is true, and the Roman church proceeds to delete the vernacular, many of the Eastern Churches will still provide liturgies in the vernacular, as has been the way in the Eastern Churches since the earliest years of the Church.

People need to understand, most especially the Credo & Confeitor, when they profess & confess.

This could be exactly what the eastern churches need for true revitalization! 👍
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The Eastern Rite Catholics did not always have their Divine Liturgy in the vernacular, did they? Didn’t they use Old Church Slavonic at one time, mostly?
 
Spiller said:
Pride.

Sadly some never do and their entire focus is on what is wrong…
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I agree that it is not good to focus entirely on what is wrong. But it is just as bad to ignore it, and never try to make it better.
Sepharad said:
The Eastern Rite Catholics did not always have their Divine Liturgy in the vernacular, did they? Didn’t they use Old Church Slavonic at one time, mostly?
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Some of the Slavic Churches did, yes, and it it still used, probably with more frequency than Latin in the average Catholic diocese. But not all Orthodox churches use Slavonic. Many use Greek, and some middle eastern churhces use syriac or arabic. The Orthodox Churches have always been more open to worship in the vernacular.
Crumpy said:
I just realized that unless the name of Jesus is mentioned in the gospel or epistle readings, the name is not otherwise uttered during the Mass.

Isn’t this odd?
Click to expand...
That isn’t true at all. Jesus Christ is mentioned MANY times throughout the entire mass. Sometimes by name, Jesus Christ, sometimes by another title. Just a few instances from the Ordinary Form:

Additionally, of course, is all of the “In the name of…the son”'s

Greeting: P: The grace of **our Lord Jesus Christ **and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Kyrie: Christ, have mercy. R: Christ, have mercy.

The Gloria: For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

before the Gospel: R: Praise to you,** Lord Jesus Christ**.

from the Creed: We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father…

Often, the response to the Petitions is “**Christ **have mercy”

Offeratory: By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity

Canon: We come to you, Father, with praise and thanksgiving, Through Jesus Christ your Son. Through him we ask you to accept and bless (+) these gifts we offer you in sacrifice

Communicantes: In union with the whole Church we honour Mary, the ever-virgin mother of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

Quam Oblationem: Let it become for us the body and blood of Jesus Christ, your only Son, our Lord.

Mystery of Faith: **Christ **has died, **Christ **is risen, **Christ **will come again. OR: R: Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life, Lord Jesus, come in glory. OR: R: When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim your death, Lord Jesus, until you come in glory.

Consecration of the Wine: Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your son.

Consecration of the Wine: Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. (Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)

the Lord’s prayer: as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ…Lord, Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles…May this mingling of the body and blood of our **Lord Jesus Christ **bring eternal life to us who receive it.

the Agnus Dei: Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us. Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: grant us peace. … Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, by the will of the Father and the work of the Holy Spirit your death brought life to the world … This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper.

And many more!
 
I don’t think these changes are necessary. I would like to see some of the ‘hippie-like’ features of Mass curtailed, however, such as wild music. I really don’t like it.
 
Nan_S said:
My priest not only elevates the host and cup with one hand, he also doesn’t kneel to reverence the consecrated eucharist until after both have been elevated. 😦 Except when he is concelebrating the mass with a visiting priest; then he kneels twice.

He says he is a trained liturgist, and since he knows that the consecration is a single liturgical event, he kneels once when the entire event is completed. He says he kneels twice when concelebrating to avoid controversy over his non-conventional posture.

I found it disturbing for quite some time when I realized what he was doing. Distractions, especially minor scandals, at the moment of consecration are not good. They take our thoughts away from God at the climax of the Mass.

I have since learned to ignore his postures. The Eucharist is still validly consecrated. But it took quite a while for me to acclimate myself.
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your parish priest also elevates the host and cup with one hand… oh my… meaning lot of priest are doing this. i question myself, what’s wrong with Vatican2??? God bless the Pope Ben16. for he who bring back the Tradition to us…
To all the priest please see this drawing: (2 hands)
 
jedi said:
your parish priest also elevates the host and cup with one hand… oh my… meaning lot of priest are doing this. i question myself, what’s wrong with Vatican2??? God bless the Pope Ben16. for he who bring back the Tradition to us…
To all the priest please see this drawing: (2 hands)
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How is two hands better than one? I read previously that it helped keep crumbs from getting lost. Frankly, it seems that the more it is touched, the more likely it is to lose crumbs.
 
Crumpy said:
I just realized that unless the name of Jesus is mentioned in the gospel or epistle readings, the name is not otherwise uttered during the Mass.

Isn’t this odd?
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No, you are mistaken…
 
Sepharad said:
The Eastern Rite Catholics did not always have their Divine Liturgy in the vernacular, did they? Didn’t they use Old Church Slavonic at one time, mostly?
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Some of the Eastern Traditions still use OCS sometimes – actually quite rarely.

The Maronites still use Aramaic.
 
Sepharad said:
The Eastern Rite Catholics did not always have their Divine Liturgy in the vernacular, did they? Didn’t they use Old Church Slavonic at one time, mostly?
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the Ruthenians did, but in the central heartland, OCS is still used and still is intelligible by those who only speak the vernacular.

The Ukrainians have offered the DL in English since before VII, tho’ as often in Ukrainian… The Slavic churches are the exception as OCS is still far closer to the various slavic vernacular tongues than Latin is to Spanish or Italian.

But the Greeks offered in Greek, the Maronites in Arabic & English.

The Diaspora of the 18th to 20th centuries have resulted in adopting english versions, often before VII, as a “low” form.

Further, most of the Byzantine churches consider their traditions to include those of their parent Orthodox churches, and the Orthodox Tradition includes the vernacular once a body of worshipers has arisen. (Hence Russian Orthodox in Japan use Japanese AND Russian Church Slavonic; in Alaska, RCS, English, Yupiq, Inupiaq, and several others.) Part of Delatinizing has been to make decent English translations, more on par with their orthodox brethren.
 
Spiller said:
Some of the Eastern Traditions still use OCS sometimes – actually quite rarely.

The Maronites still use Aramaic.
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And English and Arabic. Depending upon the needs of the parish, the languages spoken by the celebrant, and other issues.
 
OK, I don’t know why I feel this way, I’m not Catholic or Protestant, but…the image of the priest raising the host with one hand says, “Protestant” to me. Why is that??

Is it because I have seen Tridentine Masses in the past, where the priest uses both hands (as well as great reverence, I might add)…and the idea of using only one hand just seems disrespectful? (Please don’t jump on me, I don’t know why I feel this way, I just do!)
 
Sepharad said:
OK, I don’t know why I feel this way, I’m not Catholic or Protestant, but…the image of the priest raising the host with one hand says, “Protestant” to me. Why is that??

Is it because I have seen Tridentine Masses in the past, where the priest uses both hands (as well as great reverence, I might add)…and the idea of using only one hand just seems disrespectful? (Please don’t jump on me, I don’t know why I feel this way, I just do!)
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I think it’s the symettry. The picture in my mind of a priest standing between two servers and holding up the Host with both hands is perfectly symmetrical.
 
BrendanD said:
I think it’s the symettry. The picture in my mind of a priest standing between two servers and holding up the Host with both hands is perfectly symmetrical.
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Our pastor uses two hands but no bells. The pastor in the next town where some of my kids and grandkids live uses one and does have bells. But he cajoled that parish into a new $6 million-plus very traditional-looking church building, so he must be doing something right 👍
 
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