Pope: Yes to condom to fight AIDS

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Benedict - “There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute(later the Vatican spokesman revealed Benedict also included women) uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization”

Pius XI, of happy memory, in his Encyclical Casti Connubii, of December 31, 1930, once again solemnly proclaimed the fundamental law of the conjugal act and conjugal relations: that every attempt of either husband or wife in the performance of the conjugal act or in the development of its natural consequences which aims at depriving it of its inherent force and hinders the procreation of new life is immoral; and that no “indication” or need can convert an act which is intrinsically immoral into a moral and lawful one.
 
Benedict was quoted as saying that condom use by people such as male prostitutes indicated they were moving toward a more moral and responsible sexuality by aiming to protect their partner from a deadly infection.
Shortly afterwards the Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, told reporters that he had asked the pope whether he intended his comments to apply only to men. Benedict replied that it really didn’t matter, the important thing was that the person took into consideration the life of another. So, here is a question …

Isn’t it logical to conclude that Benedict also believes condom use by married couples in which one partner has HIV/AIDS indicated they were moving toward a more moral and responsible sexuality by aiming to protect their partner from a deadly infection ? If your answer is NO, then please explain why you say NO in the light of this quote from Benedict, “it really didn’t matter, the important thing was that the person took into consideration the life of another.”
 
Benedict - “There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute(later the Vatican spokesman revealed Benedict also included women) uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization”
Yes. So intriguing, especially given that “male prostitutes” are not restricted to homosexuality.
 
Pope’s Views are lost in Translation.

Confusion has been caused by one sentence taken from the Pope’s latest interview. This confusion was caused, not by the media, but by those entrusted with the translation of the German text into Italian.

Contrary to widespread reports, the Pope did not say that using a condom may sometimes be justified to stop the spread of AIDS.

After pointing out that, in the approach to dealing with AIDS, the fixation on the condom implies a trivialisation of sex, against which we must fight, the Pope added (in the American translation which is an accurate rendering of the German text): “There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralisation, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way towards recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV. That can only really lie in a humanisation of sexuality.”

All the Pope is saying is that, for an individual living a life of sexual abandon (prostitution), the use of a condom might, just might, set off a process of self-reflection in that person, which might lead to a more responsible attitude to sexuality. This is not a case of justifying the use of a condom.

Rev Dr D Vincent Twomey SVD
Professor Emeritus of Moral Theology,
Divine Word Missionaries, Maynooth, Co Kildare

Irish Independent

independent.ie/opinion/letters/popes-views-are-lost-in-translation-2436728.html
 
Contrary to widespread reports, the Pope did not say that using a condom may sometimes be justified to stop the spread of AIDS.
Please provide the reference from Pope Benedict you are referring to?

Thank you.
 
Contrary to widespread reports, the Pope did not say that using a condom may sometimes be justified to stop the spread of AIDS.
The actual quote from Benedict does attempt to justify using condoms since Benedict is claiming its “moving toward a more moral and responsible sexuality” and he includes male to female sexual relations in this, thereby procreation would be inhibited

therefore logically if someone did not utilize condoms in these situations the opposite of what Benedict said would apply, which would be "moving toward a less moral and responsible sexuality"
 
The actual quote from Benedict does attempt to justify using condoms since Benedict is claiming its “moving toward a more moral and responsible sexuality” and he includes male to female sexual relations in this, thereby procreation would be inhibited
The Holy Father is not attempting to justify the use of condoms. I have the book in front of me. What he does is to embark on an analysis of moral development. He points out that it is justifiable to accept that a person who has this level of moral responsibiloity MAY be on the way to a more moral and responsible sexuality. He’s analyzing what is happening here at a deeper level. The person, who is obviously engaging in an immoral act, is showing some moral concern. Pope Benedict is using Kohlberg’s stages of moral development. On the hierarchy of moral development, the individual is making some progress. He’s not where he should be, but there is hope.

One can say that the Holy Father should have simplified his response so that everyone can understand it. One can even say that he often speaks way over the heads of the general population. You can even go as far as saying that he does not directly answer the question.

But that’s Benedict. That’s who is. He’s a scholar. As I have often said, he has a tendency to look at behaviors at their deepest levels and tries to find what is often hidden to the naked eye.

Sometimes, Pope Benedict says things that make me go, “Huh, what did he just say?” Then I think about it or do a little research and find out. Then I go, “Ahhhhh, that’s where he’s going.”

Pope John Paul II wrote a wonderful book Crossing the Threshold of Hope. I read that book three times before I got the whole picture of what he was saying.

Paul VI, John Paul II and now Benedict XVI have been very high functioning scholars and they tend to write or speak in a manner that many people jusg go 🤷 But when you research their background material, you go :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The Holy Father is not attempting to justify the use of condoms. I have the book in front of me. What he does is to embark on an analysis of moral development. He points out that it is justifiable to accept that a person who has this level of moral responsibiloity MAY be on the way to a more moral and responsible sexuality.
An immoral “first step to moralisation”?
 
An immoral “first step to moralisation”?
You’re missing his point. The fact that someone would be concerned about the safety of his or her health or that of his or her sexual partner is a sign of some moral awareness. I would again refer you to what the pope is using, Kohlber’s Stages in Moral Development.

Moral development goes through stages. We don’t all go through them at the same rate or even in the same order. Yet, we all go through the same stages without realizing it.

Consciousness of some kind of responsibility is a good sign, even when the act it immoral. If it is an indication that something good is at work. It does not mean that the person has arrived. But at least, he or she is moving in the right direction.

It is to this sense of responsibility that the Holy Father is speaking. This tiny sense of responsibility is a good thing. The whole situation is wrong, but there is one tiny glimmer of good in the midst of it. His statement, if you read the book, is that this tiny glimmer is a sign of hope.

Have you read the book yet? If you have not, then this information would not be available to you through the medial.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Sometimes Il Papa speaks in levels much too high for us who are theologicallychallenged to understand.

What he said, when he said it and how he said it took place during a private conversation with a reporter who was interviewing him. (that is what I understand)

What he said and meant was that a male HIV infected prosltitute MAY have an edge on the moral issue because he chooses to use a condom to protect his partner as compared to a male prostitute having HIV and not using a condom. NOWHERE and in NO WAY did Pope Benedict XVI say that married couples, one HIV infected could use condoms even to protect his partner as this is against the Church’s teaching regarding contraception.

The Catholic teaching against contraception, (read Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI) not accepted by many Bishops, especially in Canada, has not changed as given and pronounced by the Magisterium.
 
The Holy Father is not attempting to justify the use of condoms. I have the book in front of me. What he does is to embark on an analysis of moral development. He points out that it is justifiable to accept that a person who has this level of moral responsibiloity MAY be on the way to a more moral and responsible sexuality. He’s analyzing what is happening here at a deeper level. The person, who is obviously engaging in an immoral act, is showing some moral concern. Pope Benedict is using Kohlberg’s stages of moral development. On the hierarchy of moral development, the individual is making some progress. He’s not where he should be, but there is hope.

One can say that the Holy Father should have simplified his response so that everyone can understand it. One can even say that he often speaks way over the heads of the general population. You can even go as far as saying that he does not directly answer the question.

But that’s Benedict. That’s who is. He’s a scholar. As I have often said, he has a tendency to look at behaviors at their deepest levels and tries to find what is often hidden to the naked eye.

Sometimes, Pope Benedict says things that make me go, “Huh, what did he just say?” Then I think about it or do a little research and find out. Then I go, “Ahhhhh, that’s where he’s going.”

Pope John Paul II wrote a wonderful book Crossing the Threshold of Hope. I read that book three times before I got the whole picture of what he was saying.

Paul VI, John Paul II and now Benedict XVI have been very high functioning scholars and they tend to write or speak in a manner that many people jusg go 🤷 But when you research their background material, you go :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Way to go JR. 👍
 
What he said and meant was that a male HIV infected prosltitute MAY have an edge on the moral issue because he chooses to use a condom to protect his partner as compared to a male prostitute having HIV and not using a condom. NOWHERE and in NO WAY did Pope Benedict XVI say that married couples, one HIV infected could use condoms even to protect his partner as this is against the Church’s teaching regarding contraception.
Nov 23, 2010 - The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, told reporters Tuesday that he asked the pope whether he intended his comments to only apply to male prostitutes. Benedict replied that it really didn’t matter, that the important thing was the person in question took into consideration the life of the other, Lombardi said.

Therefore Benedict said its “moving towards a more moral and more human sexuality” as he put it, and obviously this would include an HIV/AIDS infected husband using a condom to protect his wife from getting that disease since Benedict also said “it really didn’t matter, that the important thing was the person in question took into consideration the life of the other”
 
Sometimes Il Papa speaks in levels much too high for us who are theologicallychallenged to understand.

.
Pope Benedict does tend to speak way above the heads of most people. That’s why his public addresses: sermons, talks and others are written by a staff and then given to him to edit. When he speaks spontaneously, he is usually very profound and the average person does not always get what he’s thinking. This is a man who is very well versed in theology and in the humanities. Remember what happened when he lifted the excommunication of the SSPX bishops. He had to go back and explain what he had written in the first pronouncement. The same thing happened when he lectured at Regensburg University and quoted some ancient emperor on Islam. He had to go back and explain. In both cases, he was communicating without a script and people were upset. But their reactions were due to a lack of undersanding.

These interviews are usually done in writing. The interviewer gives him a list of questions to answer. He writes the answers. Then the interviewer comes back and asks for clarification on points: 9, 15, 27 and 53, because he believes that he understood the rest. This may or may not be the case. But that’s the way of the world of interviews. You try to take up as little of the person’s time as possible.
Nov 23, 2010 - The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, told reporters Tuesday that he asked the pope whether he intended his comments to only apply to male prostitutes. Benedict replied that it really didn’t matter, that the important thing was the person in question took into consideration the life of the other, Lombardi said.
He did say to Fr. Lombardi that he knew this was going to be a bomb. He was OK with this. This is not a surprise to anyone who has been paying attention to him since he bacame pope. He is on a campaign to make Catholics think and rise to a more intellectual level of faith. He has made this very clear everytime that he speaks of the importance of faith and reason working together.

I’ve been reading the book and he also goes into great detail to explain how he is trying to keep going what Pope John Paul began. In the book he identifies three things in particular: outreach to the young, the outreach to the Muslims and the restoration of intellecutalism to the daily life of the Church. This way of communicating is certainly consistent with that third goal. Catholics have to think about what he says. We may even have to crack open some philosophy and psychology books.
Therefore Benedict said its “moving towards a more moral and more human sexuality” as he put it, and obviously this would include an HIV/AIDS infected husband using a condom to protect his wife from getting that disease since Benedict also said “it really didn’t matter, that the important thing was the person in question took into consideration the life of the other”
To me, this is part of the movement toward a more intellectual Catholic mind. There is a principle in philosophy, that says that secondary effect is not a sin, if it’s not intended. For example, the removal of a fallopian tube with a living child inside, is not an abortion or murder, even though the child will die. The intent is not to kill the child. The removal of a cancerous uterus is not sterilization, even though that’s the outcome. However, it’s not the desired outcome. Moral theology calls it the principle of double effect.

He MAY be thinking along these lines. We won’t know, because he did not go into that much detail. That was not the question on the table.

But as I said above. He’s clearly using the epigenetic stages of moral development in his statement. One of the stages is the ability to foresee and try to avoid harm to self or another. It’s not mature moral reasoning, but it’s far more advanced moral reasoning than no awareness or concern for the welfare of another. The highest level in the stages is the ability to choose right, because it’s good and to reject wrong, because it’s evil. At that stage the person is not concerned with consequences, but with pure right and wrong and is evaluating the difference between the two. Not everyone is there. Many people are somewhere between total indifference and total altruism. Pope Benedict is acknowledging that there is moral movement in the right direction and that it is legitimate to acknowlege it. It is also a sign of hope.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The actual quote from Benedict does attempt to justify using condoms since Benedict is claiming its “moving toward a more moral and responsible sexuality” and he includes male to female sexual relations in this, thereby procreation would be inhibited

therefore logically if someone did not utilize condoms in these situations the opposite of what Benedict said would apply, which would be "moving toward a less moral and responsible sexuality"
Again, epic fail.

Here is an example.

Mugger who uses baseball bat to attack his victims, leaving them brain-damaged or dead, while he steals their money.

Mugger gets a ‘glimmer’ of responsibility. Mugger stops using baseball bat and instead uses a padded ‘cosh’ which only stuns the victims, while still stealing the money.

Now: Mugger is doing two wrong actions–physical assault and stealing.

In the first scenario, he inflicted GRIEVOUS AND EVEN DEADLY harm to the victims, and stole their money.

In the second, he still ATTACKED THE VICTIMS WITH PHYSICAL FORCE, but NOT with deadly harm, and stole their money.

SO:

Situation A. Mugger badly injures (a wrong) people and steals from them (also wrong).

Situation B: Mugger slightly injures (a wrong, but a lesser wrong than in situation A) people and steals from them (also wrong).

Now: Had mugger NOT STOPPED USING THE BASEBALL BAT, not only would he be stealing (wrong) but he would be BADLY injuring or even killing people (wrong).

He realizes the killing is wrong BUT (this is important) he does not do the truly moral thing, which would be to not hurt people at ALL, and not to steal from them.

HOWEVER. . .just realizing that he does not ‘have to’ badly injure a person is a step toward moral thinking. The means he uses are NOT MORAL. He STILL INJURES and THAT IS WRONG. However, he no longer KILLS. Not killing is a good thing.

Now, my dear sir or madam Faith: Nobody is saying that the mugger is not doing wrong, whether he uses a baseball bat or a padded cosh. But if the mugger KEPT ON with the baseball bat, is he even IN THE SLIGHTEST WAY moving toward the idea that hurting people is wrong? He isn’t, is he?

If the mugger stops using a bat and instead moves to a padded cosh, while he is still doing wrong, is he inflicting LESS HARM? Is he at least having a GLIMPSE at the idea that he cannot just go around killing people? Is he having a tiny SPARK of seeing that killing is WRONG? Even if he is still using wrong force, is he at least moving away from constant killing? Is the movement, even with immoral means (cosh) at least still a movement ‘toward’ a good even if not good itself???
 
My suggestion to anyone who has not already done so is to buy the book and read it. I’m about half-way through it. It’s fascinating! When I read Mother Teresa’s Come Be My Light/] I could see how she had brought Francis of Assisi and Teresa of Avila into her life. Everything she said and did sounded so much like them.

In this book, I can see Augustine and Bonaventure comingling in one man’s mind and spirituality. I have never seen anyone bring the Augustinian and Franciscan spiritualities together in such beautiful harmony as does Pope Benedict XVI. As you move through the pages you realize that his methodology involves using love to understand love. Where the Thomist uses reason to understand love and love to guide reason and the Jesuit uses order to understand love and love to guide order, both the Franciscan and Augustinian use love to understand love.

The Holy Father constantly looks for the signs of love in everything that he is asked to discuss and then shows how those shadows of love can lead to the fullness of love, if we follow its natural direction.

But you have to read the book to see this happening. So far, every answer that he has given points to something that is loveable about man or a sign of God’s love among men. There is that Franciscan/Augustinian spirituality again. Everything is incarnation. God breaks into human history, even when man sins.

I’m not finished yet, but I’m finding that he does not spend a lot of time explaining Catholic rules. His answers on rules are brief and then he goes on to what is behind them and the fruit that is expected from them. I have to say one thing, this whole thing sounds like something that he utterly enjoyed doing, because it’s so much like teaching a theology class. I’m happy for him. Everyone deserves to work on a project that they enjoy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Here is another take…

dici.org/en/news/note-on-the-remarks-of-benedict-xvi-concerning-condom-use/

In a book-length interview entitled Light of the World, which was released in German, Italian and English on November 23, 2010, Benedict XVI admits, for the first time, the use of condoms “in certain cases” “to reduce the risks of infection” by the AIDS virus. These erroneous remarks require clarification and correction, for their disastrous effects—which a media campaign has not failed to exploit—cause scandal and disarray among the faithful.
  1. What Benedict XVI said
To the question, “Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?” the pope answered, according to the authorized English translation of the original German version, “She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality.”

To illustrate his statement, the pope gives only one example, that of a “male prostitute”. He considers that, in this particular case, it “can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants.”

The case in question, therefore, concerns someone who, while already committing an act contrary to nature, for mercenary reasons, would take care not to infect his client fatally in addition.
  1. What Benedict XVI intended to say, according to his spokesman
These remarks by the pope have been perceived by the media and by militant movements in favor of contraception, as a “revolution”, a “turning point”, or at the very least a “break” in the constant moral teaching of the Church on the use of contraceptives. That is why the spokesman for the Vatican, Fr. Federico Lombardi, issued an explanatory note on November 21 in which we read: “the Pope considers an exceptional circumstance in which the exercise of sexuality represents a real threat for the life of another. In that case, the Pope does not morally justify the disordered exercise of sexuality but maintains that the use of a condom to reduce the danger of infection may be ‘a first act of responsibility,’ ‘a first step on the road toward a more human sexuality,’ rather than not using it and exposing the other to risking his life.”

It is appropriate to note here, to be exact, that the pope speaks not only about “a first act of responsibility” but also about “a first step in the direction of a moralization”. Along these same lines, Cardinal Georges Cottier, who was the theologian of the papal residence under John Paul II and at the beginning of the pontificate of Benedict XVI, had declared during an interview with the news agency Apcom on January 31, 2005: “In some particular situations—and I am thinking about environments where drugs are circulated or where great human promiscuity and great poverty prevail, as in certain regions of Africa and Asia—in those cases, the use of condoms can be considered legitimate.”

Legitimacy of condom use, regarded as a step toward moralization, in certain cases: that is the problem posed by the pope’s remarks in Light of the World.
 
  1. What Benedict XVI did not say and what his predecessors have always said
“No ‘indication’ or necessity can turn an intrinsically immoral action into a moral and licit act” (Pius XII, Address to the Italian Catholic Union of Midwives, October 29, 1951).

“No reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good” (Pius XI, Encyclical Casti Connubii, 54).

Now the use of condoms is contrary to nature inasmuch as it deflects a human act from its natural end. Their use therefore remains immoral always.

To the journalist’s clear question, ““Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?” the pope answers by citing an exceptional situation, and he does not recall that the Church is always fundamentally opposed to condom use.

Now the fact that condom use is an intrinsically immoral action, and matter for mortal sin, is a constant point in the traditional teaching of the Church, for example in the writings of Pius XI and Pius XII, and even in the thought of Benedict XVI when he says to the journalist who is questioning him, “[The Church] of course does not regard [the condom] as a real or moral solution,” but nevertheless the pope allows it “in certain cases”. But that is inadmissible from the perspective of the faith. “No reason,” Pius XI teaches in Casti Connubii, 54, “however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good.” Pius XII recalls this in his Address to Midwives (October 29, 1951): “No ‘indication’ or necessity can turn an intrinsically immoral action into a moral and licit act.” Saint Paul condemned the opinion that evil may be done so that good may come of it (see Romans 3:8).

Benedict XVI seems to consider the case of the male prostitute according to the principles of “gradual morality” which claims to allow certain less serious crimes so as to lead delinquents progressively from extremely serious crimes to harmless behavior. These lesser crimes would not be moral, no doubt, but the fact that they are part of a path toward virtue would render them licit. Now this idea is a serious error because a lesser evil remains an evil, whatever improvement it may indicate. As Paul VI teaches in Humanae vitae (no. 14), “Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good, it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (cf. Romans 3:8)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general.”

Tolerating a lesser evil is not the same as making that evil “legitimate”, nor including it in a process of “moralization”. Humanae vitae (no. 14) recalls that “it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong,” just as one must say that it is an error to propose the idea that a condom, which in itself is wrong, could be made right by the hoped-for path toward virtue of a male prostitute who uses it.

As opposed to a weaning process that would lead from a sin that is “more mortal” to one that is “less mortal”, evangelical teaching clearly affirms: “Go and now sin no more” (John 8:11) and not “go and sin less”.
  1. What Catholics need to hear from the pope’s lips
Certainly, a book-length interview cannot be considered an act of the Magisterium *, a fortiori when it departs from what has been taught in a definitive, unchangeable way. Nonetheless the fact remains that the doctors and pharmacists who courageously refuse to prescribe and deliver condoms and contraceptives out of fidelity to their Catholic faith and morality, and in general all the many families devoted to Tradition, have an urgent and overriding need to hear that the perennial teaching of the Church could not change over time. They all await the firm reminder that the natural law, like human nature upon which it is engraved, is universal.

Now in Light of the World we find a statement that relativizes the teaching of Humanae vitae by describing those who follow it faithfully as “deeply convinced minorities” who offer the others “a fascinating model to follow”. As if the Encyclical by Paul VI set an ideal almost out of reach, which is what the great majority of bishops had already persuaded themselves of, so as to slip that teaching more readily under the bushel basket—precisely where Christ forbids us to place “the light of the world” (Matthew 5:14).

Should the demands of the Gospel become, unfortunately, the exception destined to confirm the general rule of the hedonistic world in which we live? The Christian must not be conformed to this world (see Romans 12:2), but rather must transform it as “the leaven in the dough” (see Matthew 13:33) and give it the taste of Divine Wisdom as “the salt of the earth” (Matthew 5:13).*
 
He points out that it is justifiable to accept that a person who has this level of moral responsibility MAY be on the way to a more moral and responsible sexuality.
It sounds like Pope Benedict uses the word “justifiable” in his book and also the word “condoms”, but is there any place where he himself puts those words together and says that condom use is justifiable in some cases? I’m not saying you said he did JR, but various headlines say he did. The actual quotes from the Pope in the articles I’ve read say the opposite. Calling something “a first step in the direction of a moralization, … on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed” is not the same thing as calling something a moral act.
 
Benedict is quoted as not limiting it to just a male prostitute, but instead he widens it to anyone who has HIV/AIDS and wants to protect someone else from getting that disease.

Again, Benedict told the Vatican spokesman, Fr. Lombardi, when questioned if his statement only applied to male prostitutes and Benedict replied, “It really didn’t matter, just as long as the infected person takes into consideration protecting the other individual from getting the disease”

This obviously would also apply to a husband who has HIV/AIDS who wants to protect his wife from getting that disease. If this isn’t the case, then why doesn’t Benedict come out and clarify that this isn’t the case? Instead he just lets his statements hang out there for the secular media to grab onto and for Catholics to debate over? Where is the Vicar of Christ who speaks with clear and authoritative teaching? Instead we apparently have a talking head giving his own personal opinions on issues of “Faith and Morals” while doing a book tour and which is throwing many Catholics into a state of confusion, not to mention sexual immoral sin.
 
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