Pope: You don't have to believe in God to go to heaven

[Christ_is_Risen]

What Christians need to do or not do, what Catholic Christians or any other religious need to or not need to or must not do has no bearing on what one who has no belief must or need to do.
Your G-d reads their heart and intention. Your G-d knows what they know, how they know it, why they do everything they do.

That is not to say that it would be pointless to evangelize. The more the better I say.

Yup.

**1 Corinthians **

12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church* whom you are to judge? 13 God judges[c] those outside. **

All we can be sure of is that salvation is available for us if we follow the Gospel and the teachings of the Church. This is not a free pass, but rather an open invitation to accept a gift freely given.

For those on the outside, it is up to God to judge as he sees fit.*

 

[MarcoPolo]

Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven.

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

So, there you go. We can shut down this forum now.

The Pope didn’t quite say what the headline asserts. He was referring to the doctrine of invincible ignorance:*CCC#847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.He did not confirm the journalist’s comment about people “who don’t seek the faith,” perhaps meaning who don’t seek God. The Pope rather replied, “God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart.” The problem I see here is that people are viewing his statement as something difficult to prevent Protestants and skeptics from misunderstanding because the media treats his statements like a Rohrschach blot.

Pope’s entire comments here.*

 

[McCall1981]

The Pope didn’t quite say what the headline asserts. He was referring to the doctrine of invincible ignorance:CCC#847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.He did not confirm the journalist’s comment about people “who don’t seek the faith,” perhaps meaning who don’t seek God. The Pope rather replied, “God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart.” The problem I see here is that people are viewing his statement as something difficult to prevent Protestants and skeptics from misunderstanding because the media treats his statements like a Rohrschach blot.

Pope’s entire comments here.

This is exactly it. These kinds of things keep happening, and so much damage is being done. Im praying that these things stop happening, they are so very disheartening

 

[Granum_Frumenti]

But, the damage has been done, and protestants are gonna be up in arms.

I’ve been observing–lurking on–what some people would call a “fundamentalist” forum.

(No, I’m not considering converting to the beliefs underlying that forum. If anything, extended exposure has made it even harder for me to justify or even to entertain those beliefs. For example, I long ago observed that those verses commonly used to support sola scriptura don’t say what they’re purported to say, and this forum is sometimes a good illustration of why that idea doesn’t work all that well in practice.)

Even though that forum does have a set topic and my gut sense is that these threads are off-topic, there’ve been two threads in the past 24 hours on Catholic Stuff. One is on this story, which is at best marginally on-topic; the other is even more clearly off-topic and probably intended only to attack a certain Latin-Rite discipline, and it probably started because of this first thread. You’d guess correctly that these two threads aren’t shining moments of ecumenical appreciation.

When people there discuss news stories (whether the stories are more on-topic or less so), there’s generally an undercurrent about not trusting the popular secular news media–but whenever there’s something sensationalistic about Catholic topics, these people just eat it whole.

That forum is obviously not a sampling of All Protestants, but I’m wondering what’s going on in that wider world.

 

[Origen52]

Wouldn’t it be best if we focused on following the teachings of Christ and let God worry about the salvation of others? As my mother often said to me when I would say that I would never do something someone else had done; "of course you wouldn’t, given the same circumstances you’d probably do worse. " Her words taught me why it’s best not to judge others. We should be grateful God has given us the gift of faith and pray for those who, for whatever reason, are unable to believe. As I get older, I grieve for people who have to deal with the sorrows of the world without the comfort of faith.

Maybe there would be fewer atheists, if each one of us followed St. Therese of lesieux’s example and offered up sacrifices for the conversion of sinners? Whenever I need a little humility all I have to do is read a few pages of “the story of a soul”.

 

[franklinstower]

Wouldn’t it be best if we focused on following the teachings of Christ and let God worry about the salvation of others? As my mother often said to me when I would say that I would never do something someone else had done; "of course you wouldn’t, given the same circumstances you’d probably do worse. " Her words taught me why it’s best not to judge others. We should be grateful God has given us the gift of faith and pray for those who, for whatever reason, are unable to believe. As I get older, I grieve for people who have to deal with the sorrows of the world without the comfort of faith.

Maybe there would be fewer atheists, if each one of us followed St. Therese of lesieux’s example and offered up sacrifices for the conversion of sinners? Whenever I need a little humility all I have to do is read a few pages of “the story of a soul”.

This just about nails it and that goes for the Church too.

I have read the Catholic Catechism through twice and it seems to me that it clearly states that you can go to heaven if you don’t believe in God or if you are not Christian. Am I remembering incorrectly?

 

[Servant19]

Others have noted that the statement by the Pope is taken out of context. However, this is essentially what Judaism has said all along: one need not be Jewish to partake of the World to Come. The most important thing for us all is to lead a good life in the service of others, and G-d’s mercy is infinite if one repents (or even if one does not).

And this is EXACTLY what the Baha’is have been saying all along too

The question that needs to be asked is exactly what is Gods Will in terms of what “defines” the nature of “service to others” in this modern world?

 

[Servant19]

I don’t understand, he didn’t say anything about non-believers going to Heaven at all. He said that if a non-believer goes to God with a sincere, contrite heart then God will forgive them.

By definition, in order to go to God with a sincere, contrite heart, you would have to believe.

Actually, you do not have to believe in Christ to be doing “works” with sincerity. Would Christ deny Gandhi a haven in heaven? maybe, maybe not…it all boils down to one’s “sincerity” and “purity of motive” when serving others, and the nature of that service…

 

[BobLoblah]

Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven.

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

So, there you go. We can shut down this forum now.

11Sep13…‘Nobody comes to the Father but through Me; and nobody comes to Me except through the Father’.

Forever and Ever
BobLoblah

 

[Alizarin]

Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven.

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-sceptics-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

So if we don’t disobey our consciences, we don’t sin. If we don’t sin, we get into heaven. Therefore, obey your conscience, go to heaven… Yeah, I see your problem, Randy. Kinda negates the need for the Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

These kinds of things keep happening, and so much damage is being done. Im praying that these things stop happening, they are so very disheartening

So, would you say that the Pope’s statements are well-intentioned but ill-advised?

Anyone?

 

[Alizarin]

So, would you say that the Pope’s statements are well-intentioned but ill-advised?

Yes. But now who’s gonna tell the pope?

 

[sw85]

I don’t understand, he didn’t say anything about non-believers going to Heaven at all. He said that if a non-believer goes to God with a sincere, contrite heart then God will forgive them.

By definition, in order to go to God with a sincere, contrite heart, you would have to believe.

I think he means “go to God,” i.e., at Judgment.

In other words he is simply reiterating that if one is invincibly ignorant, obeys the dictates of conscience and moral reasoning, etc., one’s lack of faith can be forgiven.

This is not “getting to heaven without belief,” it is “getting to heaven despite lack of belief.”

The Pope is basically correct but he is perhaps leaving unarticulated the exception that nearly swallows the rule, which is the requirement that one live one’s whole life in bona fide so that their unbelief is in no way attributable to them.

 

[sw85]

So, would you say that the Pope’s statements are well-intentioned but ill-advised?

Anyone?

Are they ill-advised? The large bulk of Catholics are functional atheists anyway, so it won’t affect them. The large bulk of atheists would never have become Catholics if the Pope hadn’t said anything and therefore don’t care that he says. The smaller proportion of good Catholics might be alarmed but will, upon studying his words carefully, conclude that he is not saying anything unorthodox. So the only possible effect will be on lazy superficial Catholics hunting for an outrage like the types that formerly commented at Rorate Caeli, and wishy-washy atheists who might be started by Francis’ words into taking a second look at the faith.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes. But now who’s gonna tell the pope?

Well, funny you should ask…a buddy and I were discussing this very issue this morning.

I think there are possibilities. First, Francis himself could see that he is being misquoted in the press routinely, and he may learn to speak in soundbites that the press can understand. He’s not in Kansas anymore, and every word he speaks has the potential to be broadcast around the world in minutes if not seconds. All famous people learn to “handle” the press, but they often have a learning period during which they are misquoted and misunderstood.

A second possibility is that one of his confidants or someone with sufficient gravitas within the Curia might pull him aside and in a private, respectful manner suggest that he consider that the “low information” consumers of religious news are not sufficiently cognizant of the nuances of theology regarding the salvation of non-believers. Or any other issue. He would do well to choose his words very carefully to avoid screaming headlines. For example:

He washed the feet of a Muslim woman on Holy Thursday. That required background work.

He called the gay guy about something (I wasn’t paying attention then). That required clarification.

He says you don’t have to be a Christian to go to heaven. That will keep the Vatican communications office busy for a few days answering questions and clarifying Church teaching.

JPII kissed the Koran. Benedict had his Regensburg moment. For more on that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regensburg_lecture

My :twocents:?

Francis is going to have his moments. I hope they are fewer and less frequent going forward.

 

[Alizarin]

Francis is going to have his moments. I hope they are fewer and less frequent going forward.

I hope so, too.

 

[ffg]

I don’t think people really understand the intent of the statement as it relates to the human heart.

There is a big difference between not believing in God and rejecting God.

 

[Alizarin]

I don’t think people really understand the intent of the statement as it relates to the human heart.

There is a big difference between not believing in God and rejecting God.

Interesting line of thought… I’d like to see where that goes.

 

[sw85]

I don’t think people really understand the intent of the statement as it relates to the human heart.

There is a big difference between not believing in God and rejecting God.

The distinction is a little less clear nowadays, though, since atheists are not generally ignorant but decisively anti-Christian.

 

[ffg]

The distinction is a little less clear nowadays, though, since atheists are not generally ignorant but decisively anti-Christian.

I don’t know if I agree (with the distinction being muddied) because of this from the first…

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”