Popes and Antipopes

  • Thread starter Thread starter ematouk
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

ematouk

Guest
I keep reading in Catholic literature about Antipopes. “He wasnt a pope at that time, he was an antipope” etc…

What exactly is an antipope? how does one identify who the antipopes are? How do we know the current pope is not an antipope?

I’m just curious.

God bless.
 
An Antipope is one that was not officially elected to office.He may have had a following of some sorts,but was never voted in.

I am sure someone else can give a better explanation or a link.

God Bless
 
Pope vs Antipope: Can you spot the difference?

This is Pope Benedict XVI.



He lives in the Vatican.

He was formerly Archbishop of Munich and Freising, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, President of the Pontifical Biblical Commission, President of the Preparatory Commission for the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and Dean of the College of Cardinals.

He was elected by a majority of the College of Cardinals in Conclave, April 18 to 19, 2005 to succeed Pope John Paul the Great.

This is Pope Michael.

http://www.popespeaks.vaticaninexile.com/files/Pope_Library_lg.jpg

He lives in Belvue, Kansas (unless he has moved recently)

He was never ordained as a priest or bishop.

He was elected by six persons, none of them Cardinals, including his parents and himself, in a store owned by his family.

This is Pope Pius XIII.

http://www.truecatholic.org/pix/p13-white1.jpg

He lives in Springdale, Washington.

He was a Franciscan priest who left the Capuchin Order and the Catholic Church in 1976.

He was elected by an unknown number of persons in a house in Montana. White smoke signaled his election to the world.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Ppsmoke.jpg

He was not a bishop at the time of his election and has never been ordained a bishop by any bishop whose Apostolic Succession was recognized by the Catholic Church. Following his election, Pope Pius XIII delegated one of his supporters, Gordon Bateman, to “consecrate” him as a bishop. Bateman had been “ordained” a priest by Pope Pius XIII before he had been “consecrated” as a bishop. Following this, He then "consecrated " Bateman as a bishop. His episcopal consecration, attended by 28 people, was held in a hotel ballroom.

Will the real Pope please stand up?
 
If you go here catholicunderthehood.com/ and listen to episode #141 of Fr. Seraphims podcast, you can hear all about the Anti-popes. FYI give a listen to some of his other podcasts episodes as well. They are all very fun and informative.
 
An antipope most basically is someone other than the real pope who claims to pope.
 
An early antipope (I think he was the first) is actually a Saint, St. Hyppolitus. He was probably the top theologian of his time (200s) but he became frustrated by Pope St. Calixtus I’s leniency towards heretics–and so he declared himself the new bishop of Rome and attracted quite a following. However, the Roman emperor ushered in a new round of persecution, focused primarily on the Christian leadership–both Hyppolitus and the pope at the time, St. Pontian, were captured and sent to the salt mines. There, as they slaved away side by side, Hyppolitus reconciled with Pontian and told his followers to return to the Church–they would both later be martyred together and even now we celebrate their memorials together on the same day (August 13) 👍
 
You will also find a lot of hyperbola and sensationalism on some anti-catholic websites that speaks of anti-popes. These are usually sponsored by individuals having a very extreme fundamentalist protestant perspective with no intent other than to attack The Catholic Church (The Church) or to confuse impressionable minds and fall away from the truth.

These will often make non-substantiated and ridiculous claims that Free Masons or some other secret society has taken over the Vatican, kidnapped the “real pope” and substituted their own man as “anti-pope”. This idea is to get people to embrace the theological errors of dispensationalism, and end-time prophesy (that is total heresy and irrefutable rebuked by Catholic scholars) and arise a fear that Anti-Christ is in charge. This makes one come to them to seek words of comfort to get relief from that fear and pulls people away from the truth that they don’t have.

The irony is these same people while wanting to alarm gullible individuals into their deceitful and disordered agenda try to on one hand appeal to the notion that the “rightful” pope is not in power at the same time they don’t even believe in the authority of the Pope to govern The Church. So, in their mind they really think all popes are anti-popes! These people are whacked.

Rest assured The True Church has the proper Pope. Further, according to Catholic scholarship we are nowhere near “end times” prophesy and these kind of individuals are minor crack-pots who are gravely in error and subject to God’s justice for promoting their heresy and confusion.

Some of these people are so ignorant that I suspect that even Satan would rather they keep their mouth’s shut since they discredit the clever works of the more achieved evil doers everywhere and probably end up pushing more people to find the truth through laughable demonstrations of their own idiocy. 😉

James
 
Thanks all for your responses. It all makes sense now.

I really enjoyed the post by Leopard.

God bless.
 
Leopard, that was great. 👍

And very even-handed, I might add. Not a hint of mocking.
 
Leopard, that was great. 👍

And very even-handed, I might add. Not a hint of mocking.
Thank you. It was not my intent to mock, just to report factually and compare the contenders. I think the quotes I put around “ordained” and “consecrated” in the final description might be interpreted by some as mocking, but that wasn’t really my purpose. I just wanted to make it clear that those alleged ordinations and consecrations were not valid according to the Catholic Church, although I have no reason to doubt that those persons involved consider them valid.
 
I keep reading in Catholic literature about Antipopes. “He wasnt a pope at that time, he was an antipope” etc…

What exactly is an antipope? how does one identify who the antipopes are? How do we know the current pope is not an antipope?

I’m just curious.

God bless.

An antipope is anyone who claims to be Pope while there is a recognised Pope or Pope-elect.​

What this adds up to in practice, is often dependent on canon law, which has changed through the years.

How do we know ? Because the status of X as legitimate Pope is in doctrine what is called a dogmatic fact. A DF is any fact that has to be a fact for the Church’s self-description as the Church to be a reality - so DFs include such things as:
  • the status as ecumenical of ecumenical councils - so the status of Vatican II as an ecumenical council is a DF
  • that a canonised person is a Saint in Heaven
  • that a condemned error is erroneous; that Anglican Orders are invalid
  • that the revised Roman Missal is a fit means for the Church to use in her worship
  • & it is a DF that Benedict XVI is the legitimate successor of St. Peter. Which means that any other claimants are not.
DFs are facts because if they are not, it follows that Christ is not the Eternal Shepherd of His Church; but He is, so they have factual status. None of them is itself a dogma - they are applications of dogmas, things that must logically be true if the dogmas are to be true.

And the Church must have a legitimate Pope, who can be recognised to be such. Otherwise, the promises of Christ have been falsified. Which is impossible.

Hope that helps 🙂
 
An Antipope is one that was not officially elected to office.He may have had a following of some sorts,but was never voted in.

I am sure someone else can give a better explanation or a link.

God Bless
Normally yes, but on one occasion the cardinals elected a Pope, then a bit later didn’t like him and elected someone else. This second ‘pope’ was elected by cardinals and yet was still an antipope. They later decided they didn’t like the successors of either of them and elected a third ‘pope’, who was of course an antipope. It weas quite obvious which was the true pope as he was in Rome, whereas the first of the antipopes was in Avignon and the other in Pisa. The Pisa antipope happily resigned his claim (he had been misled by the cardinals into thinking he’d be the real Pope) but the Avignon one refused and got excommunicated. The true Pope also resigned for their to be a clean break and a new election

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_schism
 
Wow. I didn’t know about that western schism. Very interesting.

God bless.
 
Actually I thought a little more about the Western Schism.

Urban VI was pope and Clement VII was antipope at the time of the western schism. But I read in a Catholic article recently a sacrament is only valid if it is given with intention.

How can we know the Cardinals who ordained Urban IV had the intention? If indeed they went on to ordain someone else?

Would this invalidate the papacy? since if ordenation of a Pope is given without intention, then he is not a valid pope. This would in effect break the direct lineage from Peter?

God bless.
 
Actually I thought a little more about the Western Schism.

Urban VI was pope and Clement VII was antipope at the time of the western schism. But I read in a Catholic article recently **a sacrament is only valid if it is given with intention.
**
Referring to the test in bold…

I do not think that is accurate. I mean if a priest becomes distracted while hearing confession, and absent-mindedly gives absolution to the penitent without actually hearing the confession would that make the confession invalid? How would the penitent know?

But that is a bit off topic.

However, since you base your other points on this, I think it is important to sort that out.
 
Referring to the test in bold…

I do not think that is accurate. I mean if a priest becomes distracted while hearing confession, and absent-mindedly gives absolution to the penitent without actually hearing the confession would that make the confession invalid? How would the penitent know?

But that is a bit off topic.

However, since you base your other points on this, I think it is important to sort that out.
My recollection of the CCC in this area is that only the specific sacramental formula and words need to be spoken. The priest himself can even be in a state of grave sin and still administer confession and mass but he must be an ordained priest and of course go to personal confession as soon as possible.

But I think the question arises would a bishop or priest ordained under an anti-pope who was believed to be in good standing invalidate the new ordinations? Not all popes have even been priests but rather outstanding men in their communities. I don’t have all the history handy to prove this.

The cannon law gets tricky in some of these areas.

James
 
Would this invalidate the papacy? since if ordenation of a Pope is given without intention, then he is not a valid pope. This would in effect break the direct lineage from Peter?
The Pope’s election is not an ordination. Usually, the Pope is already a priest and probably a bishop, so no ordination is necessary. Even if the Cardinals were to elect a layman as the next Pope, his ordination as priest and bishop would be separate from the actual election.

Even where a sacrament is concerned, the requirement of “intent” is always very broadly interpreted. An atheist can baptize if necessary as long as he uses water, employs the proper form of words, and intends to “do what the Catholic Church does when she baptizes,” even though the atheist presumably does not believe that the baptism is actually “doing” anything to the recipient. The Church does not want people living in constant doubt that the sacraments they receive are valid just because they can’t know what the minister of the sacrament is really thinking.

Likewise, it goes against the notion of God’s protective love for his Church to think that an antipope could sit unchallenged on the papal throne for an extended period of time while everyone believed him to be the real Pope. There are people who believe that the last few Popes haven’t “really” been Pope, and even a few who’ve tried to “solve” the “problem” by having themselves elected Pope (see Leopard’s earlier post for some examples in the United States), but generally the idea that the Church could be fooled into thinking she has a Pope for so long isn’t much preferable to the idea that God would just let the Church cease to exist altogether.

Keep in mind, also, that the papal office is more like the American Presidency than like a hereditary monarchy. One “succeeds” to the office by being chosen according to the system currently in place. There is no necessary direct connection to one’s predecessor, and the line is not broken if there is a brief vacancy (as there always is between the death of one Pope and the election of the next). So even if an invalidly elected Pope managed to slip through and serve out his entire reign, the valid succession would be restored as soon as he died and another was legitimately elected in his place.

In other words, even if the Church is ultimately wrong about which papal claimant was the real Pope during certain parts of the Western Schism, the election of a totally different guy at the end of said schism fixed the problem, with no permanent damage to the succession.

Usagi
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top