Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

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As someone who thinks that a charitable description of Luskin (truly!), I can say I’m impressed with the Christian virtue of that description much more than a defense of a guy like that as you’ve got here. Here is a Christian who isn’t suffering BS, and will call a spade a spade. That’s as strong an apologetic as is to be had around here, I’d say. A Catholicism that defends (and rallies around) a Casey Luskin, or a Ken Ham or a Bill Dembski has dug a deep hole for itself as a starting point. That there are Catholics who can identify guys like that for what they are – and this is virtually unheard of in my long travels through Protestant circles – is at least a stance that isn’t reasonably and trivially discounted as “politics and dogma pretending at science”. A Catholic view that identifies Luskin for the con man he is at least holds out the consideration that reason and faith can be harmonized in Catholicism.

I’m always surprised here how many and loud are the “Protestant fundamentalists” who are listed as “Catholic”. It may be that Catholic breeds a very similar form of incorrigible fundamentalism to the Protestant kind, or maybe that there are just a lot of ex-Protestant fundamentalists here who changed out the “Protestant” part and kept the fundamentalism mojo, but it’s odd that of all the Catholics I know, and who were persuasive in convincing me to consider becoming a Catholic and leaving Protestantism, not one of them was a fundamentalist-type. And there were many.

The picture is very different, here, though.

-TS
I agree, but it does not help matters when the RCC states in its dogma that interpretation of creation and evolution is up to the individual. From my point of view, the RCC is welcoming ID and creationist supporters with open arms and does not try to dispel these erroneous scientific and historical claims. These “fundamentalists” can find a comfortable home in the RCC as it presently describes dogma around creation and evolution.
 
Turn Fox off during dinner!!!
We don’t generally allow TV during dinner (except for “America’s got Talent”) but the boys wanted to see the Glenn Beck video on the computer so we could discuss it over dinner. It provoked a good conversation about the philosophy of science, not bad for a ten and fourteen year old.
 
We don’t generally allow TV during dinner (except for “America’s got Talent”) but the boys wanted to see the Glenn Beck video on the computer so we could discuss it over dinner. It provoked a good conversation about the philosophy of science, not bad for a ten and fourteen year old.
very good!

It’s all I can do in my house to get the rest of the family (including the wife) to turn off ESPN during dinner.
 
I agree, but it does not help matters when the RCC states in its dogma that interpretation of creation and evolution is up to the individual.
Pardon me, but that is a funny statement something like apples and oranges grow in the onion patch. No thank you. I’m not interested in explaining. I’m too busy wiping the Pepsi I was drinking off the keyboard–just kidding. 😉
 
Con men are not foreign to our faith, but should be exposed for what they are and opposed when possible.
Well, there’s a statement that makes Catholicism stand tall in my eyes, if there ever was one.
TS, I suspect that a lot of converts kept their biblical literalist hermeneutic wrapped in a waterproof bundle on their backs as they “swam the Tiber.” They are coming into the Church without realizing that we Catholics have been here for ages, and that we don’t carry that same literalist hermeneutic on our backs.
StAnastasia
I’m sure that’s the case. I think I meant that, but also something … wider by “fundamentalist”, though, something that goes beyond just a rigid literalist biblical hermeneutic. There’s a common kind of foundationalism and brittleness that spans across a lot more than just the role and status of scripture. Catholics, generally, are much more flexible in their thinking (yes, while being careful not to run afoul of catechetical boundaries), so the kinds of simplistic and polar thinking on all sorts of issues maybe just stands out more here, in contrast.
I agree, but it does not help matters when the RCC states in its dogma that interpretation of creation and evolution is up to the individual. From my point of view, the RCC is welcoming ID and creationist supporters with open arms and does not try to dispel these erroneous scientific and historical claims. These “fundamentalists” can find a comfortable home in the RCC as it presently describes dogma around creation and evolution.
Yes, and really, this is one thing that condemns the Catholic Church in my eyes. If I could get over the basic doubt that there was warrant for God’s existence in the first place, or that the Gospel claims were reasonable to accept (I could not, as it turns out, after embracing them for years and years), the fact that even the RCC was impotent in the face of proudly ignorant and anti-reasoning creationism really just made it academic.

The Catholic Church has a lot more reasonable stance toward science and evolution than Evangelical Protestantism, but it too – see here, often enough – suffers foolishness nonsense, proud ignorance that scolds in its name. If the Catholic God and his church on earth cannot even ward off young earth creationists and their claims, that’s one anemic, impotent, ambivalent God, I’d say.

In part I supposed that Catholicism was a bit of relief from that craziness, and for a while it actually kept me leaning toward RCIA, just because I didn’t want to bail on the whole deal just because I was surprised to find Catholicism both OK with creationism and unable to fend off the claims of creationism in any case.

In the end, that was not dispositive. I really just could not justify the belief in God along any line of thinking. But if there’s ever moments where I doubt and wonder, a little dose of the creationists/fundamentalists here or elsewhere is like strong smelling salts that snap me back to my senses. I come back to the basis for believing God exists, but a little creationism is good to remind one where all that leads, and what one cannot dismiss or reject, if Christianity is true.

-TS
 
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Touchstone:
I am very sad to read misunderstandings of Catholicism.
 
This is an extremely erroneous statement.
I’m happy to stand corrected, grannymh. Is Catholicism equipped to reject young earth creationism as the truth-antogistic foolishness it is? Doesn’t the Church officially make that just as solid a point in the believer’s “doctrinal space” as sound science?

-TS
 
I can’t tell whether this Voris character is for real, or is engaged in a very clever parody of ultra-right Catholicism. Only faithful Catholics should be allowed to bot? This must be parody.
Sorry – misprint:

I can’t tell whether this Voris character is for real, or is engaged in a very clever parody of ultra-right Catholicism. Only faithful Catholics should be allowed to vote? This must be parody.
 
I’m happy to stand corrected, grannymh. Is Catholicism equipped to reject young earth creationism as the truth-antogistic foolishness it is? Doesn’t the Church officially make that just as solid a point in the believer’s “doctrinal space” as sound science?

-TS
TS, it’s too late to answer this fully, but you are correct that the Church does presuppose "doctrinal space’ perhaps without even being aware of it. AT least, theology presupposes a world view, and should strive to become aware of its presuppositions.
 
Originally Posted by larkin31
I agree, but it does not help matters when the RCC states in its dogma that interpretation of creation and evolution is up to the individual

This is an extremely erroneous statement.
No it is not. The Biblical commission allowed a literal 6-day creation as well as a longer period of time. Pope Pius XII’s Humani Generis stated debate on the matter of evolution or no evolution (direct 6-day creation) was permitted because, as yet, the CHURCH, which insisted on its dogmas on creation, had not taken a ‘philosophical’ stand on the matter.
 
No it is not. The Biblical commission allowed a literal 6-day creation as well as a longer period of time. Pope Pius XII’s Humani Generis stated debate on the matter of evolution or no evolution (direct 6-day creation) was permitted because, as yet, the CHURCH, which insisted on its dogmas on creation, had not taken a ‘philosophical’ stand on the matter.
I believe that according to a post on one of the threads, the quote from the Biblical Commission left out the words literal 6-day when speaking about creation. The dogma that God created heaven and earth (see Catholic creeds) meets the Biblical Commission’s criteria. If I am mistaken about the dogma on creation and the Biblical Commission, please correct. Thank you.

Furthermore, after months of requests, there has been no presentation of any properly, duly defined and universally declared theological dogma which specifically describes in scientific terms specific theories regarding specific physical and material aspects of the universe. This is because the Catholic Church defines dogma in relation to faith and morals as revealed by God not by mortals.

Also, it is proper for the Catholic Church not to take a scientific stand on scientific matters.

When any theory formally denies a Catholic Dogma by denying the existence of God, the Catholic Church affirms its position that God exists. Individuals within the Church, including high ranking clergy, will often explain in scientific terms opposing theores regarding the earth and the rest of the universe. These individuals are free to present their educated opinions – though many consider their opinions as facts and may be right in this.

However, individuals, including popes and saints, and individual commissions, including ones personally formed by high ranking clergy, are not automatically the Magisterium acting within a formal, official Church Council.

Blessings,
granny

The search for truth is part of human nature.
 
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