Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

[MindOverMatter2]

Are you a better person than I?

I would like to sing a song on exactly how much better than you I am leela.

Anything you can do I can do better
Anything you can do I can do better than you.
Yes I can. (the song repeats etc…etc.)

 

[JDaniel]

I am not asking for a pronouncement. Presumably there is a definition of what a heretic is. I would imagine that I must fit it.

What is it exactly that you know?
Are you a better person than I?

Leela:

I can’t judge that completely, but, just from what I’ve seen in these Catholic Forums, I’d say, “Yes.” I pray that we are equally as good as one another, but, I can examine your posts and, therefore, your thoughts, and make the unscientific hypothesis that I maybe I concede too much. Unless you have been playing “devil’s advocate” all these years.

God bless,
jd

 

[Leela]

LS:

Please read the following: newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

God bless,
jd

This part was interesting:

“… it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture.”

 

[JDaniel]

This part was interesting:

“… it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture.”

Leela:

Yes it is. Twenty-one days in a life of luxury, I should be so maligned! Maybe that’s the problem: he was not allowed to stay there for the balance of his life! That is quite a punishment, come to think of it.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

This part was interesting:

“… it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture.”

Leela:

See . . . that’s the difference between you and me. I feel bad for the Church. You, on the other hand, feel bad for the bad treatment of a moron. Why can’t people behave?

God bless,
jd

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Know what I found interesting? The fact that the quote you pulled, Leela, was not in reference to GALILEO HIMSELF.

Let’s see the rest of what you pulled out of context, shall we? You pull out this:

it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture."

Where though was this in the article?

In these circumstances, Galileo, hearing that some had denounced his doctrine as anti-Scriptural, presented himself at Rome in December, 1615, and was courteously received. He was presently interrogated before the Inquisition, which after consultation declared the system he upheld to be scientifically false, and anti-Scriptural or heretical, and that he must renounce it. This he obediently did, promising to teach it no more.
Then followed a decree of the Congregation of the Index dated 5 March 1616, prohibiting various heretical works to which were added any advocating the Copernican system. In this decree no mention is made of Galileo, or of any of his works. Neither is the name of the pope introduced, though there is no doubt that he fully approved the decision, having presided at the session of the Inquisition, wherein the matter was discussed and decided. In thus acting, it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture. *****OH LOOK, THAT IS WHERE YOUR QUOTE CAME FROM, LEELA. Galileo and Foscarini rightly urged that the Bible is intended to teach men to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. At the same time, it must not be forgotten that, while there was as yet no sufficient proof of the Copernican system, no objection was made to its being taught as an hypothesis which explained all phenomena in a simpler manner than the Ptolemaic, and might for all practical purposes be adopted by astronomers. What was objected to was the assertion that Copernicanism was in fact true, “which appears to contradict Scripture”. It is clear, moreover, that the authors of the judgment themselves did not consider it to be absolutely final and irreversible, for Cardinal Bellarmine, the most influential member of the Sacred College, writing to Foscarini, after urging that he and Galileo should be content to show that their system explains all celestial phenomena — an unexceptional proposition, and one sufficient for all practical purposes — but should not categorically assert what seemed to contradict the Bible, thus continued:
I say that if a real proof be found that the sun is fixed and does not revolve round the earth, but the earth round the sun, then it will be necessary, very carefully, to proceed to the explanation of the passages of Scripture which appear to be contrary, and we should rather say that we have misunderstood these than pronounce that to be false which is demonstrated.

 

[Brendan]

Yes, Galileo was an unscientific oaf. If I had to use two words to describe Galileo it would certainly be unscientific oaf…

lol, I love how you are hating on Galileo for teaching theory as fact…when he was RIGHT and it WAS FACT.

Actually, he wasn’t

Go back and read post 110
forum.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=7086972&postcount=110

If a modern physicist was as way off a Galileo was on the experimental evidence of his theory, he would never get published by any respectable journal.

What a REAL scientist would do was to admit that their conclusions did not actually match up with reality and go back and do more research and come back with a revised theory. That is NOT what Galileo did. Instead, he was even rather arrogant in demanding that his theory be presented as fact when his predictions were clearly worse than the current model.

In the realm of planetary motion, he added nothing to science. Copernicus before him did, and Kepler did afterward. But Galileo, no.

In the realm of observational astronomy, yes, his scientic methods were sound. But not for in theoretical planetary motion.

 

[Leela]

See . . . that’s the difference between you and me. I feel bad for the Church. You, on the other hand, feel bad for the bad treatment of a moron. Why can’t people behave?

I think of the difference this way. While you think that the Church has never ever ever done anything wrong in the past 2000 years, I think agree with the pope’s astronomer who said that the Church was spectacularly wrong in its treatment of Galileo and also agree with the New Advent article you cited which says that the Church “committed a grave and deplorable error.” None of this means that the Church is evil. I certainly don’t think so. I am just amazed that you cannot admit that the Church has ever erred.

 

[grannymh]

This part was interesting:

“… it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture.”

Individuals, the bloody lot of them.

 

[Leela]

Individuals, the bloody lot of them.

If I understand you correctly, it would be impossible for the Church to do something evil, becuase doing something can only be done by individuals. But then it would be impossible for the Church to do anything good. Is that right?

 

[grannymh]

If I understand you correctly, it would be impossible for the Church to do something evil, becuase doing something can only be done by individuals. But then it would be impossible for the Church to do anything good. Is that right?

If individuals within the Catholic Church can do something evil, then individuals within the Catholic Church can do something good.This ability to choose actions comes from one’s intellect and will.

Individuals are also a very real part of the Catholic Church which is often referred to as the Mystical Body of Christ. Because we have a spiritual soul, we are called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. This is what “created in the image of God” means.

It is finally dawning on me that the full understanding of the Catholic Church has been missed. It is also dawning on me that the full understanding of human nature, soul and body, has been missed. My apology, but that is a topic for a different thread.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[JDaniel]

I think of the difference this way. While you think that the Church has never ever ever done anything wrong in the past 2000 years, I think agree with the pope’s astronomer who said that the Church was spectacularly wrong in its treatment of Galileo and also agree with the New Advent article you cited which says that the Church “committed a grave and deplorable error.” None of this means that the Church is evil. I certainly don’t think so. I am just amazed that you cannot admit that the Church has ever erred.

Leela:

I really don’t think the Church erred - except for its PC stance with regard to Galileo later on. (OK, I will admit that! ) All it did was ask him to behave. Present facts. Gosh, that’s all you atheists keep asking us for. But, the Church is very bad for doing it. You cannot be pleased.

God bless,
jd

 

[buffalo]

I am not asking for a pronouncement. Presumably there is a definition of what a heretic is. I would imagine that I must fit it.

What is it exactly that you know?
Are you a better person than I?

OK - I will jump in.

Heresy means to cleave away. That would also put knowledgable cafeteria Catholics in the heresy definition. Also look at apostasy.

Heresy

 

[buffalo]

I think of the difference this way. While you think that the Church has never ever ever done anything wrong in the past 2000 years, I think agree with the pope’s astronomer who said that the Church was spectacularly wrong in its treatment of Galileo and also agree with the New Advent article you cited which says that the Church “committed a grave and deplorable error.” None of this means that the Church is evil. I certainly don’t think so. I am just amazed that you cannot admit that the Church has ever erred.

Yes - people who accept the Catholic Proposition sin and have done bad things. Many fail to live up to the Catholic proposition. They have scandalized the Church.

Has the Catholic truth guided by the Holy Spirit ever erred? NO.

Perhaps in future posts we can agree to differentiate. ie. there were Catholic persons who sinned against the church and people vs Jesus’ teachings are wrong.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Yes, in Galileo’s case. He was warned: You don’t have all the facts. This has not been firmly established. But no, Galileo started running around like a kid with a new toy. I proved it! I proved it!

To Leela - By people, I presume you mean non-Catholics as well. Heresy would only apply to Catholics saying something that was not true and/or contrary to Church teaching.

God bless,
Ed

Yes he did. Indeed he did. Just like someone I know believes he can prove gravity exists by bouncing a ball. Oh, wait! That was you!! Oh dear.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Well done. That is exactly right. The desire to dismiss ID is the desire to dismiss any higher intelligence or authority. It is a form of protest for Radical Individualism. We are bags of chemicals that spontaneously gained the power to move and speak.

God bless,
Ed

The only person in my entire life that I have heard (or seen) make the following statement: “We are bags of chemicals that spontaneously gained the power to move and speak” is you. No credible biologist or other scientist would say something so utterly ridiculous. He/she would be laughed off the planet. You must know by now that no scientific study has ever used that as a hypothesis or presented it as a conclusion or theory.

Yet you keep printing it as if somehow if we see it enough times we’ll believe it.
Nobody will ever believe that has been presented as science. Nobody. Absolutely nobody except for you.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I would like to sing a song on exactly how much better than you I am leela.

Anything you can do I can do better
Anything you can do I can do better than you.
Yes I can. (the song repeats etc…etc.)

Actually, I believe the correct words are:

Anything you can do I can do better.
I can do anything better than you.
Yes I can. No you can’t. Yes I can. No you can’t…

BTW, can you bake a pie?

Thanks Mom for teaching me this song!

 

[LittleSoldier]

Just got round to listening to this. It’s just a regurgitation of all the well-debunked arguments for ID - irreducible complexity, appearance of design = design, etc.

Here’s an open response to Bierle’s nonsensical rhetoric from a real biologist, PZ Myers:

ID ain’t science, it’s creationism wearing a lab coat.

 

[buffalo]

The only person in my entire life that I have heard (or seen) make the following statement: “We are bags of chemicals that spontaneously gained the power to move and speak” is you. No credible biologist or other scientist would say something so utterly ridiculous. He/she would be laughed off the planet. You must know by now that no scientific study has ever used that as a hypothesis or presented it as a conclusion or theory.

Yet you keep printing it as if somehow if we see it enough times we’ll believe it.
Nobody will ever believe that has been presented as science. Nobody. Absolutely nobody except for you.

It is worse that that:

 

[buffalo]

or “Everything comes from nothing”.