Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

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How about this? Only empirical science in the science classroom. ID and evolution in the philosophy class.
Hello buffalo,

I can see a place for evolution in the philosophy class as well. Dennett’s contribution by itself would be enough to fill out a course. ID in a philosophy class would suffer from the same lack of curriculum that prevents its use in a science class, however. Your implicit suggestion that biological evolution is not empirical, however, is contradicted by well over [a hundred thousand papers](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...h&pmfilter_Fulltext=on&pmfilter_Relevance=on&(name removed by moderator)utpage=0), looking no further than the archives of PubMed.
Where are you getting your information from? (What you offered was pure assertion and it seems clear that you are mistaken about the conceptual structure of the ID argument.)
Hello Betterave,

The absence of a curriculum could be quite easily contradicted were you to present one. But in fact, among the original objections presented by the biology teachers at Dover was their inability to find material to fill out a curricular unit on the topic. There’s a great deal of wishful thinking among ID opponents that ID actually has positive material to present in support of its case. I suspect your belief that I am “clearly mistaken” about the conceptual structure of ID is a product of a similar faith.

Conceptually, ID is a search for things that cannot be explained. As such, it offers no explanations at all. In fact, I was amused to find that the “journal” you cited earlier as academic support for ID included only one issue, and two papers in total, both of which were objections to biological evolution.

Criticism of the Qur’an is not support for the Bible.

As ever, Jesse
 
I see, so books like Signature in the Cell don’t exist? I suggest you pick up a copy.

God bless,
Ed
Hello Ed,

It’s usually a mistake for philosophers of science to cross over into science itself, unless they’re quite careful to interact with actual scientists in the field in order to prevent the natural embarrassment that comes from presenting risibly inaccurate material. Meyer’s book is a good example of this principle.

As ever, Jesse
 
Hello buffalo,

I can see a place for evolution in the philosophy class as well. Dennett’s contribution by itself would be enough to fill out a course. ID in a philosophy class would suffer from the same lack of curriculum that prevents its use in a science class, however. Your implicit suggestion that biological evolution is not empirical, however, is contradicted by well over [a hundred thousand papers](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...h&pmfilter_Fulltext=on&pmfilter_Relevance=on&(name removed by moderator)utpage=0), looking no further than the archives of PubMed.
These papers show observable evolution from one species to another?
 
These papers show observable evolution from one species to another?
Hello again, buffalo.

I can only find [thousands of examples](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...h&pmfilter_Fulltext=on&pmfilter_Relevance=on&(name removed by moderator)utpage=0) of those.

As ever, Jesse

ETA

ps. PubMed is compendium of research papers funded by tax dollars, accessible to everyone, by law. In my experience I’ve found, in posting on crevo discussions, that not once has there been a creationist objection that couldn’t be answered by reference to already-existing research. I heartily recommend such investigations to anyone interested in searching out the truth of our biological origins on their own, away from the often heated ideological battles.
 
So I point out that your argument has no content and you give me more of the same nonsense? You don’t even ATTEMPT to respond to my specific criticisms of your views? And you consider yourself to be rational? :confused:
Yes, very. I have presented the reasons why ID is unscientific. I have presented a list of organisations representing hundreds of thousands of scientists and teachers, who say the same thing. You disagree, and consider those hundreds of thousands of scientists to be wrong, and yourself to be right. It is you who are irrational. You haven’t even presented a defence of ID, all you’ve done is misrepresent and subsequently criticise your straw man representation of my comments.
Silly Wanstronian, I never said I knew better than these people, I simply asked you for an argument for your position with some substance. Wishful thinking on my part.
No, just stupidity. The arguments have been made. That you disagree with them - and the vast majority of the scientific community - is not my problem.
Which FACTS, buddy? The fact that you are arrogant and closed-minded and haven’t presented anything close to a substantive argument yet, just a bunch of stupid straw- mans?
No, the FACT that the vast majority of people with a scientific background dismiss ID as unscientific. That fact. No straw men required or invoked. Other than by you, in a desperate attempt to win an argument that you lost several posts ago.

I don’t care whether you think ID is scientific. I think it isn’t, I’ve presented my reasons, and they are reasons consistent with the overwhelming weight of scientific opinion.

ID has been debunked by proper scientists on so many occasions, it’s incredible that anybody still has the courage to defend it. It’s junk science, pure and simple.
Well the reason that I continue to argue with you is because IT IS POSSIBLE that you may get over your arrogant closed-minded dogmatism and actually offer an intelligent response to my criticisms of your views - although, granted, it may not be likely.
Yes, I’d stop now then. Because I’m unlikely to change my position when all the evidence is on my side. I’d be as intellectually bankrupt as you seem to be.

I’ve answered all your criticisms - although it has to be said, it really took the form of correcting your misapprehensions of what I originally said. However, as a special concession because you don’t seem to remember this, please present the criticisms again, and I’ll respond.
Yeah, same for that bonehead John Henry Newman, right? :rolleyes:
Oh, is that the one who got beatified because some deacon recovered from a back operation in two days, which just happens to be the usual time for recovery from that particular operation. Miracle indeed!!
 
Hello again, buffalo.

I can only find [thousands of examples](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/e...h&pmfilter_Fulltext=on&pmfilter_Relevance=on&(name removed by moderator)utpage=0) of those.

As ever, Jesse

ETA

ps. PubMed is compendium of research papers funded by tax dollars, accessible to everyone, by law. In my experience I’ve found, in posting on crevo discussions, that not once has there been a creationist objection that couldn’t be answered by reference to already-existing research. I heartily recommend such investigations to anyone interested in searching out the truth of our biological origins on their own, away from the often heated ideological battles.
Since there are so many can you pick the best one to illustrate your claim?
 
If an obviously manufactured object is found on Mars, for example, do we automatically conclude it was not designed because no designer can be located?
How would you determine that it was ‘obviously manufactured?’
 
Since there are so many can you pick the best one to illustrate your claim?
Hello buffalo,

I’m tempted to ask why, with the papers directly linked for you in their thousands, you nonetheless make this request. Open them. Look for yourself.

Here’s one that looks interesting. Frequency-Dependent Selection Predicts Patterns of Radiations and Biodiversity

We construct a frequency-dependent and DNA sequence-based model of speciation. We compare our model to empirical diversity patterns observed for cichlid fish and Darwin’s finches, two classic systems for which speciation rates and richness data exist.

Here’s another one. Genetic Tests for Ecological and Allopatric Speciation in Anoles on an Island Archipelago

Geological and molecular phylogenetic evidence show that, in this archipelago, Martinique anoles provide several examples of secondary contact of island species. Four precursor island species, with up to 8 mybp divergence, met when their islands coalesced to form the current island of Martinique. Moreover, adjacent anole populations also show marked adaptation to distinct habitat zonation, allowing both allopatric and ecological speciation to be tested in this system.

If you’d like to investigate observed speciation, the material is available.

As ever, Jesse
 
Hello buffalo,

I’m tempted to ask why, with the papers directly linked for you in their thousands, you nonetheless make this request. Open them. Look for yourself.

Here’s one that looks interesting. Frequency-Dependent Selection Predicts Patterns of Radiations and Biodiversity
We construct a frequency-dependent and DNA sequence-based model of speciation. We compare our model to empirical diversity patterns observed for cichlid fish and Darwin’s finches, two classic systems for which speciation rates and richness data exist.Here’s another one. Genetic Tests for Ecological and Allopatric Speciation in Anoles on an Island Archipelago
Geological and molecular phylogenetic evidence show that, in this archipelago, Martinique anoles provide several examples of secondary contact of island species. Four precursor island species, with up to 8 mybp divergence, met when their islands coalesced to form the current island of Martinique. Moreover, adjacent anole populations also show marked adaptation to distinct habitat zonation, allowing both allopatric and ecological speciation to be tested in this system.If you’d like to investigate observed speciation, the material is available.

As ever, Jesse
You should probably read up on the finches. What was found is that the finches beaks adapt and then return to there former size.

Rapid Adaptation of Finches not Evidence For Evolution


The other definition seeks to include observed adaptations within species without a corresponding increase in genetic information. For an evolutionist to accomplish this, he must scientifically describe and observe the mechanism by which genetic information is increased via mutation. Since this has never been observed, and there is no viable mechanism, evolution is nothing more than philosophical ramblings. Biophysicist, Dr. Lee Spetner stated, "The neo-Darwinians would like us to believe that large evolutionary changes can result from a series of small events if there are enough of them. But if these events all lose information they can’t be the steps in the kind of evolution the neo-Darwin theory is supposed to explain, no matter how many mutations there are. **Whoever thinks macroevolution can be made by mutations that lose information is like the merchant who lost a little money on every sale but thought he could make it up on volume.**4
**
**
Reporting finch adaptation as evidence for evolution is not unique. Finch evolution gained momentum when the research team of Peter and Rosemary Grant went to the Galapagos Islands in 1973. While observing the wide diversity of finches, they discovered that during an ordinary drought, the average beak length of some birds slightly increased. This preliminary data was then extrapolated to conclude after a certain number of droughts; a new species of finch could be created with a longer beak5. What they did not realize at the time, was during rainy seasons the beaks did not stay the same, they returned to normal. This type of intrinsic oscillation is an eloquent illustration of natural selection via adaptation but not evolution.
Code:
       The  subject papers           presented in Science magazine are excellent  research examples           demonstrating rapid adaptations within a  species of bird. ** However,           these adaptations utilize information previously existing in  the           genetic code of these creatures. (IDvolution - my add**) The fact remains, they are  still           finches and they are still birds.
References


  1. *] Pennisi, E., “Finches Adapt Rapidly to New Homes”, Science, (2002), 295, pp. 249-250.
    *] Badyaev, A.V., Hill, G.E., Beck, M.L., Dervan, A.A., Duckworth, R.A., McGraw, K.J., Nolan, P.M., Whittingham, L.A., “Sex-Biased Hatching Order and Adaptive Population Divergence in a Passerine Bird”, Science, (2002), 295, pp. 316-318.
    *] Ref. 1.
    *] Spetner L., “Not By Chance”, 1998, The Judaica Press, Inc, Brooklyn, NY, p. 160.
    *] Grant, P.R., “Natural Selection and Darwin’s Finches”, Scientific American, (Oct. 1991), 265, pp. 82-87.

    and from your second link, this - “This rejects the development of reproductive isolation in allopatric divergence, but supports the potential for ecological speciation, even though full speciation has not been achieved in this case.”

    Now, we do know that creatures can adapt to their environment but still are the “kind” they started as. We also now know that DNA actively fights against mutations taking hold and go through several iterations to stop them.
 
So it is agreed that design exists and can be detected. What is the issue then if it is studied further? Isn’t that what science does?
Science studies the real world. So far there is no real world evidence of any of ID’s proposed designers. So far there is no evidence of where ID’s proposed designers are supposed to have operated. So far there is no evidence of what abilities ID’s proposed designers have. So far there is no evidence of when ID’s proposed designers are supposed to have operated. So far there is no evidence, beyond conjecture, that ID’s proposed designers have actually designed anything.

I would single out the question of when the designers operated as an interesting one. If ID is a political, rather than a scientific, movement then the question of when will be avoided because that would likely disrupt the political Big Tent which currently includes both 6,000 year YECs and Old Earth people like Dembski and Behe. If ID is scientific then the question of when is an obvious one to ask. If the bacterial flagellum was designed then when was it designed? Thousands of years ago or billions of years ago? What is the evidence in favour of the date proposed? And so forth with the usual kind of scientific discussion.

ID may possibly become science, but at the moment it is not science. There are already sciences that use scientific methods of design detection: archaeology and forensic science for example. ID has not yet approached anywhere near the level of detail we have in those two examples. An archaeologist can tell when a potsherd was designed by the potter. A forensic scientist can tell an accidental death from a (designed) murder and can tell us when the death happened to within a few hours.

Currently the level of detail in ID is “well it sure looks designed to me”, and that is about it. That is insufficient for science, though it may well be sufficient for politics. Currently ID more resembles politics, or theology, than science.

rossum
 
I think the point about Judge Jones is that he is a Judge, not a scientist.
Those who gave evidence were scientists. Professor Behe is a scientist and so were many other witnesses. The evidence presented was enough to convince any reasonable observer that ID was very directly derived from the earlier Creation Science, remember “cdesign proponentsists”? Where a simple text replacement of ‘creationists’ by ‘design proponents’ went wrong? A smoking gun that any reasonably intelligent person could recognise.

rossum
 
Science studies the real world. So far there is no real world evidence of any of ID’s proposed designers. So far there is no evidence of where ID’s proposed designers are supposed to have operated. So far there is no evidence of what abilities ID’s proposed designers have. So far there is no evidence of when ID’s proposed designers are supposed to have operated. So far there is no evidence, beyond conjecture, that ID’s proposed designers have actually designed anything.

I would single out the question of when the designers operated as an interesting one. If ID is a political, rather than a scientific, movement then the question of when will be avoided because that would likely disrupt the political Big Tent which currently includes both 6,000 year YECs and Old Earth people like Dembski and Behe. If ID is scientific then the question of when is an obvious one to ask. If the bacterial flagellum was designed then when was it designed? Thousands of years ago or billions of years ago? What is the evidence in favour of the date proposed? And so forth with the usual kind of scientific discussion.

ID may possibly become science, but at the moment it is not science. There are already sciences that use scientific methods of design detection: archaeology and forensic science for example. ID has not yet approached anywhere near the level of detail we have in those two examples. An archaeologist can tell when a potsherd was designed by the potter. A forensic scientist can tell an accidental death from a (designed) murder and can tell us when the death happened to within a few hours.

Currently the level of detail in ID is “well it sure looks designed to me”, and that is about it. That is insufficient for science, though it may well be sufficient for politics. Currently ID more resembles politics, or theology, than science.

rossum
C’mon - you know better than this. Measuring CSI is not just saying “it looks designed”.

Biology is the real world. Studying the super language of DNA should be stopped?

ID the science only looks for design. Who the designer is is philosophical. To detect design we have to know the attributes of the designer?

Do you by any chance want to rewrite your post? I am kinda surprised.

rossum, rossum rossum - :tsktsk:
 
Those who gave evidence were scientists. Professor Behe is a scientist and so were many other witnesses. The evidence presented was enough to convince any reasonable observer that ID was very directly derived from the earlier Creation Science, remember “cdesign proponentsists”? Where a simple text replacement of ‘creationists’ by ‘design proponents’ went wrong? A smoking gun that any reasonably intelligent person could recognise.

rossum
Is your claim that ID cannot have any roots? In any case this really doesn’t bother me if we are really interested in finding the truth.
 
You should probably read up on the finches. What was found is that the finches beaks adapt and then return to there former size.
Hello again, buffalo,

On the contrary, I suggest that you avoid giving inordinate attention to YEC chemists writing reviews of popular science articles in biology at the expense of attention to biologists discussing empirical evidence in the pages of professional journals of biology.

Let’s face it, every human endeavor has its cranks, and science is no exception. Dr. Young is an example. He’s no better positioned to redefine evolution for biologists than he is to redefine information for information theorists (such as myself). To wit, there is no molecular process that occurs in reproduction that is not directly reversible via another molecular process. To the extent that any such process, such as base deletion, involves loss of information, its reversed process, base insertion, must necessarily represent a gain in information, lest the very idea of information be made meaningless. Any claim that reproductive processes only lose information is simply wrong, and its proponents are simply quacks.

The Galapagos finches have undergone speciation since the time of the island’s formation. This much is empirically evident through investigations of palaeontology and molecular biology such as that given in the linked article you certainly have not yet had time to examine in any detail. There are thousands of such articles linked in my earlier post. Life on earth goes back billions of years, and is characterized by massive extinction events followed by repopulation and diversification of surviving species. Observations of speciation during this period are everywhere in the literature.
and from your second link, this - “This rejects the development of reproductive isolation in allopatric divergence, but supports the potential for ecological speciation, even though full speciation has not been achieved in this case.”
Now, we do know that creatures can adapt to their environment but still are the “kind” they started as. We also now know that DNA actively fights against mutations taking hold and go through several iterations to stop them.
Again, you really do need to read the articles if you’re interested in examining the evidence. The authors here are presenting the case for ecological speciation as stronger than that for allopatric (geographical isolation) speciation on the island of Martinique. This is a discussion of differing drivers of speciation. Though incomplete, ecological speciation is observed to be in progress there. Nor is this the only such example. From the same article:

Anolis (small insectivorous lizards) is the most speciose amniote genus (circa 400 species) [18] and show little inter-specific hybridization [19]. Just two colonizations of the Caribbean islands have resulted in 150 species, so they may be thought of as exemplifying allopatric speciation in island archipelagos [11]–[14], [18], [20].

The biblical “kinds” has no bearing here. No one really knows what’s meant by it or how it can be related to the more useful taxonomic classifications that have since been developed. It certainly doesn’t relate directly to species, or even genus. There are examples in the creationist literature of individual kinds crossing even family barriers. Without belaboring the obvious, the authors of Genesis had not a clue about the very existence of the principle form of life on our planet, representing far more than 90 percent of both genetic diversity and biomass itself. Here, I’m referring to microbial life, of course.

As to the error-correction processes in DNA, it is a mistake to assume they prevent mutation. There are on the order of 150 base mutations in every human. Interestingly enough, these mutations, multiplied across the million generations separating us from our closest cousins, the chimpanzees, is sufficient by itself to account for the numerical differences in our genomes.

As ever, Jesse
 
Hello again, buffalo,

On the contrary, I suggest that you avoid giving inordinate attention to YEC chemists writing reviews of popular science articles in biology at the expense of attention to biologists discussing empirical evidence in the pages of professional journals of biology.

Let’s face it, every human endeavor has its cranks, and science is no exception. Dr. Young is an example. He’s no better positioned to redefine evolution for biologists than he is to redefine information for information theorists (such as myself). To wit, there is no molecular process that occurs in reproduction that is not directly reversible via another molecular process. To the extent that any such process, such as base deletion, involves loss of information, its reversed process, base insertion, must necessarily represent a gain in information, lest the very idea of information be made meaningless. Any claim that reproductive processes only lose information is simply wrong, and its proponents are simply quacks.

The Galapagos finches have undergone speciation since the time of the island’s formation. This much is empirically evident through investigations of palaeontology and molecular biology such as that given in the linked article you certainly have not yet had time to examine in any detail. There are thousands of such articles linked in my earlier post. Life on earth goes back billions of years, and is characterized by massive extinction events followed by repopulation and diversification of surviving species. Observations of speciation during this period are everywhere in the literature.

Again, you really do need to read the articles if you’re interested in examining the evidence. The authors here are presenting the case for ecological speciation as stronger than that for allopatric (geographical isolation) speciation on the island of Martinique. This is a discussion of differing drivers of speciation. Though incomplete, ecological speciation is observed to be in progress there. Nor is this the only such example. From the same article:Anolis (small insectivorous lizards) is the most speciose amniote genus (circa 400 species) [18] and show little inter-specific hybridization [19]. Just two colonizations of the Caribbean islands have resulted in 150 species, so they may be thought of as exemplifying allopatric speciation in island archipelagos [11]–[14], [18], [20].The biblical “kinds” has no bearing here. No one really knows what’s meant by it or how it can be related to the more useful taxonomic classifications that have since been developed. It certainly doesn’t relate directly to species, or even genus. There are examples in the creationist literature of individual kinds crossing even family barriers. Without belaboring the obvious, the authors of Genesis had not a clue about the very existence of the principle form of life on our planet, representing far more than 90 percent of both genetic diversity and biomass itself. Here, I’m referring to microbial life, of course.

As to the error-correction processes in DNA, it is a mistake to assume they prevent mutation. There are on the order of 150 base mutations in every human. Interestingly enough, these mutations, multiplied across the million generations separating us from our closest cousins, the chimpanzees, is sufficient by itself to account for the numerical differences in our genomes.

As ever, Jesse
Curious how anyone who studies the evidence and makes a clear case against evolution is always disparaged. 😦 Can we just discuss the case?

A simple question - what have the finches evolved into?

I did not say DNA eliminates mutations. I stated that it fights against mutations. That in itself means that the evo explanation just got tougher.

But here is another (I hope satisfactory) link:
Evolution on Fast Forward: Finches Adapt to Climates

Now this is rapid adaptation.

As we study genetics I predict that a better classification of “species” will come about. We may be able to better home in on the “kinds”.
 
You guys are hilarious. Really - there’s abundant, overwhelming evidence that ID is not considered ‘science’ by scientists, or by your pope. But no - your personal opinions are somehow more valid than this irrefutable evidence. You know better than all these scientists, you know better than the pope*. Silly old scientists, silly old popey - can’t they see the truth?

This lack of rationality is actually quite common in people - if the evidence doesn’t match your personal opinion, the evidence must be wrong (think homeopathy, acupuncture, reiki etc.). Sadly for you, the reality is very different - the evidence is what it is, it’s objective, publicly accessible and consistent. And by continuing to deny the FACTS, you just expose your closed-mindedness and lack of rational thought, for all to see. How do you expect to be taken seriously?

Still - we already knew that evidence is irrelevant to theistic belief - why should things change now?

I can’t see any point continuing in this thread - the ID arguments have been demolished again, and yet you continue to deny the facts. You’re wrong, but too arrogant to admit it. What’s the point in continuing to debate with people who’ll argue that black is white?

*Not that I think the pope provides a particularly good example of rational thought.
Calling the Pope “silly old popey” is inappropriate and rude. You didn’t need to put that in your post and you shouldn’t have done it. It’s not right and is actually against forum rules to mock the Catholic religion.

Shame on you.
 
Curious how anyone who studies the evidence and makes a clear case against evolution is always disparaged. 😦 Can we just discuss the case?

A simple question - what have the finches evolved into?

I did not say DNA eliminates mutations. I stated that it fights against mutations. That in itself means that the evo explanation just got tougher.

But here is another (I hope satisfactory) link:
Evolution on Fast Forward: Finches Adapt to Climates

Now this is rapid adaptation.

As we study genetics I predict that a better classification of “species” will come about. We may be able to better home in on the “kinds”.
What do you mean by a “better classification” of species? Do you mean a better definition? Personally I think the one that is used in biology now is sufficient and can’t be improved. Besides, there are already sub-species.

Could you please clarify your point in the part of your post about “better classification of species”?
 
Hello Ed,

It’s usually a mistake for philosophers of science to cross over into science itself, unless they’re quite careful to interact with actual scientists in the field in order to prevent the natural embarrassment that comes from presenting risibly inaccurate material. Meyer’s book is a good example of this principle.

As ever, Jesse
I refer you then to the numerous posts here where personal philosophies are presented as arguments for certain scientific ideas. Just type evolution into the search box.

Meyer’s book, regardless of his affiliations, is a splendid example of what scientists are discovering: an increase in information and the identification of functions of parts of the cell once thought to be much more limited or even useless. As the amount of information carrying capacity increases, the timeframe decreases as formerly believed.

God bless,
Ed
 
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