Pope's call for interfaith day of prayer provokes debate

[Sufjon]

If He lived in everyone, why would we need to accept Him as our saviour for Him to live in us, and us in Him?

Hi Agapewarrior: That’s a good question. I will leave it to the Christians to sort that out. I’m not looking for a savior. That leaves me free to love God without conditions or expectations. I trust He will do what is right by me. As far as seeing Him in yourself and other people, I would offer that sometimes that which is plainly in our faces are the hardest things to see. In regards to the nature of who He is and where He is, my sense is that He was pretty plain in His language on that point:

“For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in. I needed clothes and you did not clothe me. I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Timothy17]

God hears the prayers of His people.

By asking everyone to come, you imply they are also His people. They are His creatures, undoubtedly, but they are not His people. Atheists who make a mockery of intellect and reason and then themselves by denying Him are not “His people.” They are not “of God,” and therefore cannot be considered as being substantially the same as the “People of God” or God’s People.

That being said, from at least a political perspective what the Pope is doing is very sensical. He is rightly implying that anyone and everyone who personally holds “beliefs” they interiorly believe to be both right and good - in the truest sense - have a very real common cause with, and natural allegiance to, Catholicism. He is implying that our independent beliefs (whether erroneous or correct) ultimately necessitate and require a belief in human dignity, in the existence of objective Truth, and this belief is very much under attack and, therefore, we have common cause to pray together. The Catholic Church prizes and cherishes man’s ability to say, “I believe,” and “We believe” - “the world,” however, most certainly does not or, at least, sickenlingly desires to dictate to us what those beliefs must or should be ; that is, impose upon us a very man-made (as it were, though ultimately, diabolically contrived) religion, one that would most obviously offend the Christian but ultimately those of all other beliefs as well (it being intrinsically necessary for such a thing (man-made and imposed religion) to deny they can find and adhere to that Truth, or that it exists ; hence, the “dictatorship of relativism”).

Satan’s congregation has always used peer pressure, insults, threats, injuries, crimes, murders, lies, slanders, ad infinitum to coerce mankind into a degrading and slavish submission. Our Lord Himself faced this most clearly and poignantly, and all of us have - to greater or lesser extents - faced this kind of cruel, merciless butchery. I believe that in this century more and more the “gloves will be off,” and people will have to come face to face with the reality of evil, and its presense. Being given every right to license and every favour, the evil in this world can only do more evil. We’re coming to a point where it will be laughable for any man to deny the objective existence of Good and also of evil. The extremes will become increasingly witnessed.

Pax,
Tim

 

[Pieman333272]

I’m glad the pope’s doing this. It’s always very nice to see interfaith prayer and dialog. Critics or not.

 

[latin_rite]

I think it might be time for a new pope. it’s a pity he did show some hope.But this is disgusting.
This is leading The Catholic flock a stray. The Pope is acting no better than some heretic asking his fellow Catholics to pray with pagans. Why is this Pope disobeying God like this? ’
It is bad enough you have some “Catholics” on here saying we should get along or accept other people pagan religion. Now we have this. No wonder Catholics are leaving the Church in droves. I think if this goes ahead. i will stop going to Church. I don’t want anything to do with a pagan loving Church.

 

[Timothy17]

I think it might be time for a new pope. it’s a pity he did show some hope.But this is disgusting.
This is leading The Catholic flock a stray. The Pope is acting no better than some heretic asking his fellow Catholics to pray with pagans. Why is this Pope disobeying God like this? ’
It is bad enough you have some “Catholics” on here saying we should get along or accept other people pagan religion. Now we have this. No wonder Catholics are leaving the Church in droves. I think if this goes ahead. i will stop going to Church. I don’t want anything to do with a pagan loving Church.

Dear latin_rite,

In common accord with everyone here I believe you should take some time and pray. You, at some point, fell in love with the beloved Spouse of Christ - as we all did. Know for a deep certainty that our beloved Church has had her times of great trials, tribulations and difficulties in the past, and - thanks to so many Saints (whom we should pray for more of) - she overcame each dark time with a splendid rejuvenation and increase in authentic witness and holiness. Please review the life of, for example, Pope St. Gregory VII, whose biography can be found on this site via the Catholic Encyclopedia. Note that his predecessor was a faily good Pope, and this Pope paved the way for Pope St. Gregory VII, who was able - thanks be to God - to effect a long lasting increase in holiness, discipline, and overall piety.

Know also that our prayers are with you.

Pax,
Tim

 

[The_Sentry]

Stories like this “interfaith day of prayer” nonsense really wound me, as I’m trying to leave Anglicanism for the Catholic Church. When I hear things like this, it feels like the same old junk that I’ve been opposing for years in my (former) tradition. I KNOW most Catholics aren’t relativists and “it doesn’t matter what you believe” universalists! “Prayer” and “worship” with atheists and followers of other religions is part of what drove me from the Anglican disaster in the first place!

 

[Sufjon]

Stories like this “interfaith day of prayer” nonsense really wound me, as I’m trying to leave Anglicanism for the Catholic Church. When I hear things like this, it feels like the same old junk that I’ve been opposing for years in my (former) tradition. I KNOW most Catholics aren’t relativists and “it doesn’t matter what you believe” universalists! “Prayer” and “worship” with atheists and followers of other religions is part of what drove me from the Anglican disaster in the first place!

Well, I would say that the Pope is the one who makes those decisions for his church. There are, however, plenty of churches that keep to themselves, are intolerant of other faiths and don’t worship with others if this is a prerequisite for you. I hear the Westboro Baptist church is such a place. They will probably not be participating in this event.

 

[dzheremi]

Cut the baloney, Sufjon. This “either accept relativism or you’re a bigot” stance is a false dichotomy. It is right to not pray with heretics, Christ-deniers, and the Godless.

 

[Pieman333272]

Cut the baloney, Sufjon. This “either accept relativism or you’re a bigot” stance is a false dichotomy. It is right to not pray with heretics, Christ-deniers, and the Godless.

Now, I don’t believe that all Gods are the same God, I believe the only true God is the triune God revealed to the Isrealites at Sinai and later who sent his Son to earth, and that some other religions may have partial revelation/wisdom, but you’re just being unkind. What better way to demonstrate God’s love for all then to have all pray to him? And you really don’t think we’ll win some converts in the equation? (this isn’t why I support it, but it’s a possible outcome).

 

[Jennykay]

And then of course we might ask ourselves the “what would Jesus do” question.

 

[dzheremi]

Now, I don’t believe that all Gods are the same God, I believe the only true God is the triune God revealed to the Isrealites at Sinai and later who sent his Son to earth, and that some other religions may have partial revelation/wisdom, but you’re just being unkind.

How so?

What better way to demonstrate God’s love for all then to have all pray to him?

This makes no sense. You just wrote that you believe in the Triune God, so presumably that is who you pray to. Others pray to their Allah or their ____ (whatever atheists “pray” to), specifically denying the God that you say is the true God. How is it that they pray to Him?

And you really don’t think we’ll win some converts in the equation? (this isn’t why I support it, but it’s a possible outcome).

Irrelevant. God can raise up children of Abraham from stones, if He sees fit to do so. Similarly, God can bring people to Him without these events that encourage others to stay in their Christ-denying, blasphemous religions and philosophies.

I suspect that most or all of you who are so gun-ho over this event would think it absolute madness if (hypothetically…please don’t jump down my throat here) the Pope were to hold a “pray with unrepentant practicing abortionists” event. So I’ll ask you, what is the one unpardonable sin, as given to us in the Holy Bible? (Matthew 12:31-32)

My guess, based on the opposition to criticism exhibited in this thread, is that many more would feel deep revulsion at praying with those who kill children than praying with those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, yet the latter sin is the one which will not be forgiven. And chances are that if there were a “pray with abortionists” event, it would likely center around the necessity for repentance and abandonment of sinful behavior/action/beliefs. Do any of you think this “prayer for peace” day will center around the need of the Muslim, the Atheist, the Buddhist, the Jew, the whatever to abandon his blasphemy and come to Christ in supplication for his past errors in belief and action and to embrace belief in the true Triune God?

If any of you do, then you are absolutely delusional. May the Pope of Rome himself prove me wrong. I would seriously love that, but I won’t be holding my breath.

 

[Sufjon]

Cut the baloney, Sufjon. This “either accept relativism or you’re a bigot” stance is a false dichotomy. It is right to not pray with heretics, Christ-deniers, and the Godless.

-You have every right to stick to yourself in how you worship or pray if that is what you choose. I in turn have every right to come to my own conclusions about that, and call it what I will. I have simply called it how I see it and you have given me no real cause to see it any other way.

-You used the term heretic, and I am assuming you are referring to people like myself. For clarification, a heretic is one who holds views that constitute a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs, especially a religion, that conflicts with established dogma. By definition, that would mean that one would have to belong to your belief system in order to be a heretic, which eliminates persons of other faith traditions and atheists from qualifying for this distinction. If, however, one were to extend qualification for heresy to all belief systems as a broader whole, then changes from established beliefs can only come from later religions because their beliefs must diverge from what already exists. My faith existed thousands of years prior to yours, making your choice of terms rather unfortunate for one in your position as a member of a newer faith. Note that you were the one who used that term. I have merely given it back to you. I think you’re going to have to rest with it.

• I will pray with you, an atheist or anyone who comes in the name of God at any time. I think your Pope is on the right track. I will pray with him anytime. Perhaps you might join the rest of us with your Pope. That would be nice.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Pieman333272]

How so?

dzheremi:

If any of you do, then you are absolutely delusional.

This makes no sense. You just wrote that you believe in the Triune God, so presumably that is who you pray to. Others pray to their Allah or their ____ (whatever atheists “pray” to), specifically denying the God that you say is the true God. How is it that they pray to Him?

I meant praying under him.

I’ll answer your other objection to this later (tomorrow), I need to get some rest, lol

 

[dzheremi]

I am not now and would never deny you your right to define yourself and your own view of proper worship however you want, Sufjon. My only point was that your insinuation that those who refuse relativism are bigots (your line about the Westboro Baptists) is a false dichotomy. It is also incredibly rude.

Just for future reference, Pope Benedict XIV is not my Pope.

 

[comrade1789]

I love the Pope and am thankful for him. However, I think in this he is mistaken and should not proceed in an interfaith day of prayer.

 

[dzheremi]

I meant praying under him.

What does this mean? Anything any of us do is done under God, because God sees and knows everything we do, think, believe, etc. I don’t see how this is making a point about anything anyone is talking about in this thread.

 

[Sufjon]

I love the Pope and am thankful for him. However, I think in this he is mistaken and should not proceed in an interfaith day of prayer.

I think you may be right. I thought it was a good idea, but it looks like getting people to simply pray with one another is causing many of God’s chosen people to come apart at the seams (at least on this forum)… I guess I’ll keep praying with the un-chosen.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Timothy17]

I am not now and would never deny you your right to define yourself and your own view of proper worship however you want, Sufjon. My only point was that your insinuation that those who refuse relativism are bigots (your line about the Westboro Baptists) is a false dichotomy. It is also incredibly rude.

Just for future reference, Pope Benedict XIV is not my Pope.

Your points being well taken here nonetheless do not absolve you from the scandal of schism.

I. No one has ever taught or said that the Pope was impeccable.

II. No Pope has yet got it into his head to declare ex cathedra that interfaith prayer meetings are to be believed in with Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Faith.

You’re a heart-breaking spectacle, dzheremi. You’re learned and astute and clearly fond of the Truth. All I can admonish is that you prayerfully consider Our Lord’s own prayer for unity, “that they may all be one.”

Pax,
Tim

 

[Sufjon]

I am not now and would never deny you your right to define yourself and your own view of proper worship however you want, Sufjon. My only point was that your insinuation that those who refuse relativism are bigots (your line about the Westboro Baptists) is a false dichotomy. It is also incredibly rude.

Just for future reference, Pope Benedict XIV is not my Pope.

Hi zheremi: I never used the word bigot, but I think not praying with someone because of what faith they belong to might actually be bigotry now that you mention it.

Anyway, I am still ready to pray with you.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree, Sentry. How can this NOT be a bad thing, this event? Prayer is directed at God. If I’m standing beside someone praying to Vishnu or Shiva, Allah, etc. we are not praying to the same deity by any means. It would be like in ancient Israel King David getting together with the Philistines or Amalekites or Amorites and praying with them for the sake of all getting along and having a peaceful region. Can you imagine Elijah praying with the priests of Baal for the sake of a Rodney King-like “can’t we all just get along” event? I’m blown away by this stuff. Just when I try to put CCC 841 out of my mind with the relativist ecumenical excesses of the catechism, I see this stuff. It’s a killer for me to read this. It makes God generic, vague, a blank check, and affirms to the non-Christian validity within their beliefs and diminishes the need for our “Great Commission.” I’m not a happy camper with this. I hear ya.

Stories like this “interfaith day of prayer” nonsense really wound me, as I’m trying to leave Anglicanism for the Catholic Church. When I hear things like this, it feels like the same old junk that I’ve been opposing for years in my (former) tradition. I KNOW most Catholics aren’t relativists and “it doesn’t matter what you believe” universalists! “Prayer” and “worship” with atheists and followers of other religions is part of what drove me from the Anglican disaster in the first place!