Pope's call for interfaith day of prayer provokes debate

[dzheremi]

No person is my enemy, but when my neighbor’s religion tells them that I’m an infidel and I should die for what I believe then I do reserve the right to fight against that ideology, and to preserve my family by not inviting them into my house so that they can kill or convert me. “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”, not “as for me and my house, we don’t want to seem mean, so come in and do whatever you want.” This isn’t even ecumenism…this is just suicidal foolishness. Suicide is a sin, and as for foolishness, Jesus did tell his followers to be as wise as serpents. This event is the exact opposite of that.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Great sentiment BUT we are supposed to pray to Our Lord Jesus Christ for them, not pray beside them as they invoke Allah’s name or that of Shiva, Vishnu, boddhisatvas, or some Unitarian cloud. We are called to charity, love, hope, and prayer, but not pagan intermingling of the concept of deity and prayer…
God bless!

We are asked to love and pray for our enemies, so wouldn’t it be even greater if we could pray with them?
I don’t look at people of other faiths as enemies, they are my neighbours, and we are to love our neighbours as we love ourselves.
All things good start with prayer
Blessings
Eric

 

[Sufjon]

God and Jesus must remind you of them as well. Because what i said was based on what they commanded.

God and Jesus remind me of everyone. In turn, everyone reminds me of God and Jesus. He is the innermost core of every being.

I could mention a few things that Jesus said we no longer needed to follow as well. But it doesn;t invalidate those that he said we were still to follow. . Jesus up held those particular laws laid down by God. It is a very clear reference. He did it at least twice that i know of.

I mentioned some laws from the OT that required killing disobedient children, stoning adulterers, permitting selling your daughters into slavery and other Taliban-like stuff. In regards to those laws, Jesus basically said that they were to remain in effect until the end of the world (or when heaven and earth disappear):

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” –Matthew 5

I think following these laws would rightly get you a life sentence these days. But there it is in black and white. Twisted logic could be used to back out of that passage, but it says what it says. It leads me to think that perhaps we have to apply our own common sense and reason when we interpret what these things mean.

I don’t . But since he never made reference to their religion. Then it is safe to assume that they were Jews. As he made a point of letting people know, when he was helping out those who weren’t jewish

Since He didn’t mention their religions, I would offer that it is only safe to assume that you are reading the relevance of their religion into the story based on conclusions you made otherwise, or based on what you are expecting Him to have cared about. My sense is that the act of coming among humankind in human form is an act of reaching out in itself.

Actually. You’re the one who is taking him down. I am only saying what he commanded. Maybe you might like to think less of him because of this. I don’t. The pope is saying to pray with pagans. Both God and Jesus says not too. I think i’ll listen to God and Jesus on this matter.
You can call me ignorant, xenophobic. It doesn’t matter. There are at least two who will agree with me on this. And it’s those two opinions, that really matters.

The meaning of what I said is that every person will view Him in somewhat different ways. It is unlikely that an image or view of Him that is precisely the same in any two human minds exists. In His words and throughout the scriptures of various and diverse faith traditions, I hear an underlying tone of commonality and union among things. Others are hearing the dog whistle of separatism, exclusionism, and one-dimensional tonality that I am simply unable to hear. That is simply what I meant.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[The_Sentry]

Since Augustine, like all the Fathers, recognized that the supreme Deity of the pagans was the true God, and since Augustine championed a more sympathetic view of Jews than was commonly accepted by the early Church (according to one contemporary Jewish scholar, Paula Fredriksen), I think that Augustine might surprise you.

Edwin

But he would not tolerate the religious relativism that is rampant in today’s interfaith efforts. Surely you’ve studied City of God?

 

[The_Sentry]

St. Nikolai of Zhicha, a great pastor and shepherd of our times. He was called “The New Chrysostom” and even spent some time in the U.S. You can read his Prologue here, which is a compendium of the lives of the Saints for each day with a meditation on a spiritual theme. The Prologue is incredibly inspiring.

This Assisi thing is rife with something that Unitarians would be comfortable with. And it’s exactly why we need an orthodoxy in all things. It actually brings to mind an episode of the Simpsons where the family goes to the church ice cream social:

Lisa: Wow, look at all these flavors! Blessed Virgin Berry, Command-Mint, Bible Gum?
Rev. Lovejoy: Or, if you prefer, we also have Unitarian ice cream.
[hands Lisa an empty bowl]
Lisa: There’s nothing here.
Lovejoy: Exactly.

In Christ,
Andrew

Thank you so much for this link. This is very interesting.

 

[comrade1789]

Does anyone have a link to the exact text of the Pope’s words? I’d rather us be discussing what he actually said instead of some paraphrasing, even it it be from respectable Catholic news services. I ask this because i called in when Patrick Coffin had Dr. Scott Hahn on today on CAL, and asked Dr. Hahn to comment on Pope BXVI recent comments as reflected in the EWTN article Pope’s call for interfaith day of prayer provokes debate Read more: ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/new.php?id=2473#ixzz1C0GDUo7C

At first Dr. Hahn gave me some education about the Octave of Christian Unity, and after a while i just had to inturrupt and clarify that I wasn’t talking about ecumenical prayer, but about a day of Interfaith Prayer, with Muslims, Hindus etc, for world peace. Dr. Hahn dismissed me as misquoting the article (which he said he was not familiar of this news) and then he said that news outlets always take Pope Benedict’s words out of context and compared this news I related to him (from the article we are all discussing here) to the media’s handling of the condom/Light of The World ordeal.

Then I was dismissed before being allowed to respond, “hope that helps, lets move on to the next caller…”

anyways, I am a little purturbed that I couldn’t get a better answer out of Dr. Hahn on this issue.

 

[Sufjon]

Does anyone have a link to the exact text of the Pope’s words? I’d rather us be discussing what he actually said instead of some paraphrasing, even it it be from respectable Catholic news services. I ask this because i called in when Patrick Coffin had Dr. Scott Hahn on today on CAL, and asked Dr. Hahn to comment on Pope BXVI recent comments as reflected in the EWTN article Pope’s call for interfaith day of prayer provokes debate Read more: ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/new.php?id=2473#ixzz1C0GDUo7C

At first Dr. Hahn gave me some education about the Octave of Christian Unity, and after a while i just had to inturrupt and clarify that I wasn’t talking about ecumenical prayer, but about a day of Interfaith Prayer, with Muslims, Hindus etc, for world peace. Dr. Hahn dismissed me as misquoting the article (which he said he was not familiar of this news) and then he said that news outlets always take Pope Benedict’s words out of context and compared this news I related to him (from the article we are all discussing here) to the media’s handling of the condom/Light of The World ordeal.

Then I was dismissed before being allowed to respond, “hope that helps, lets move on to the next caller…”

anyways, I am a little purturbed that I couldn’t get a better answer out of Dr. Hahn on this issue.

This article has some quotes from the Pope on the event:

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=8780&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+%28Catholic+World+News+%28on+CatholicCulture.org%29%29

You said you were looking for something from a respectable Catholic news service. I am not Catholic, so I don;t know if you consider the Catholic Culture publication to be respectable or reliable. That is where I got the article. It looks okay to me, but I don’t know anything about your publications.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And contrary to the kindness that Edwin perceives Augustine to have had toward the Jews, he “tolerated” them at best. He was not a fan from my readings. He saw them as a necessary link in the prophecy endgame. He focused on their eventual conversion and toleration of them, not praying with them in an interfaith love fest. Augustine viewed them as sad, pitiable folks who are an example of the man who rejects Christ and the inevitable outcome of such rejection. You’re right, Sentry, to mention City of God…

**“The Jews who slew Him, and would not believe in Him, because it behooved Him to die and rise again, were yet more miserably wasted by the Romans, and utterly rooted out from their kingdom, where aliens had already ruled over them, and were dispersed through the lands (so that indeed there is no place where they are not), and are thus by their own Scriptures a testimony to us that we have not forged the prophecies about Christ.” **Book 18 Chapter 46 City of God

I cannot imagine Augustine wanting to break bread with them let alone pray with them in a vigil! Just because he saw truths in pagan thinking that could be applied to Christianity doesn’t mean he endorsed praying with gnostics, manichees, neo-platonists, and pagans. That’s quite a stretch.

You’re dead on, Sentry!

But he would not tolerate the religious relativism that is rampant in today’s interfaith efforts. Surely you’ve studied City of God?

 

[latin_rite]

God and Jesus remind me of everyone. In turn, everyone reminds me of God and Jesus. He is the innermost core of every being.

Nah i believe some have satan as their inner most core.

I think following these laws would rightly get you a life sentence these days. But there it is in black and white. Twisted logic could be used to back out of that passage, but it says what it says. It leads me to think that perhaps we have to apply our own common sense and reason when we interpret what these things mean.

Jesus fulfilled the law. Therefore we aren’t under its authority anymore, we’re under the grace provided by Jesus. That doesn’t mean you dismiss God’s laws, it means we aren’t sanctified by the law anymore, we’re sanctified by Jesus’ blood.
And one thing Jesus kept is the law we aren;t to pray with pagans.

Since He didn’t mention their religions, I would offer that it is only safe to assume that you are reading the relevance of their religion into the story based on conclusions you made otherwise, or based on what you are expecting Him to have cared about. My sense is that the act of coming among humankind in human form is an act of reaching out in itself.

And what are you doing? You are doing the same no? I assume that they were Jewish, because there is no mention of them being otherwise. And it has been demonstrated that he did not like helping gentiles. He only helped those who had faith in him. Not mythra or oggly boogly. or what ever pagan god these gentiles worshiped. He taught by these few instances, that even us lowly gentiles can be saved if we believed in him. If we followed him. And his word. And that meant following his laws, and those laws means no pagans allowed. Pagans are as Jesus said dogs.

.

Others are hearing the dog whistle of separatism, exclusionism, and one-dimensional tonality that I am simply unable to hear. That is simply what I meant.

Your friend
Sufjon

That “dog whistle” is the voice of God. And if following his word and his commandments means you feel i am one dimensional then that is fine. You can’t twist what God and Jesus said in both the ot and nt. And i don;t care if i get called a isolationist because i choose to follow Gods words and not mans.

 

[seeker57]

Is someone who doesn’t kowtow to another’s particular idiosyncratic religious view automatically an enemy?

That is how some of the postings in this thread sound.

That the pope would consider leading an interfaith prayer day speaks volumes to those of us who are not Catholic or Christian.

Threatening or demeaning others will not convince them of your argument. The pope seems to realize this and would rather offer an olive branch instead of the tip of a sword.

 

[jam070406]

That the pope would consider leading an interfaith prayer day speaks volumes to those of us who are not Catholic or Christian.

Will you convert to the Catholic Faith?

 

[Mickey]

Pope Benedict XVI announced that he will hold a meeting of prayer with leaders of other religions.

Ouch!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Who has suggested that we should or must “threaten or demean others?” I haven’t heard that argument or admonishment anywhere in this thread? What I have heard is that there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God. He is THE only God and those who worship deities other than the Triune God we worship are worshipping false gods. To “pray” with these folks is to acknowledge the legitimacy of said false gods and to be complicite in a participation in idolatry IMO. This is dangerous. No one is advocating hurting or threatening anyone, just not participating. This is a passive action, peaceful, just not joining in, not active and violent so I fail to understand your apprehension?

If you don’t believe in my Saviour, Jesus Christ, that’s your right to do so and that’s fine. But if you ask me to pray and you have a god that is obviously not mine, whom I believe to be truth Himself, I cannot in good conscience join you in prayer. I would, however, rejoice in the day when you would come to the same Table that Christians eat from, the banquet of Christ.

Is someone who doesn’t kowtow to another’s particular idiosyncratic religious view automatically an enemy?

That is how some of the postings in this thread sound.

That the pope would consider leading an interfaith prayer day speaks volumes to those of us who are not Catholic or Christian.

Threatening or demeaning others will not convince them of your argument. The pope seems to realize this and would rather offer an olive branch instead of the tip of a sword.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Who has suggested that we should or must “threaten or demean others?” I haven’t heard that argument or admonishment anywhere in this thread? What I have heard is that there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only Son of God. He is THE only God and those who worship deities other than the Triune God we worship are worshipping false gods. To “pray” with these folks is to acknowledge the legitimacy of said false gods and to be complicite in a participation in idolatry IMO. This is dangerous. No one is advocating hurting or threatening anyone, just not participating. This is a passive action, peaceful, just not joining in, not active and violent so I fail to understand your apprehension?

If you don’t believe in my Saviour, Jesus Christ, that’s your right to do so and that’s fine. But if you ask me to pray and you have a god that is obviously not mine, whom I believe to be truth Himself, I cannot in good conscience join you in prayer. I would, however, rejoice in the day when you would come to the same Table that Christians eat from, the banquet of Christ.

Is someone who doesn’t kowtow to another’s particular idiosyncratic religious view automatically an enemy?

That is how some of the postings in this thread sound.

That the pope would consider leading an interfaith prayer day speaks volumes to those of us who are not Catholic or Christian.

Threatening or demeaning others will not convince them of your argument. The pope seems to realize this and would rather offer an olive branch instead of the tip of a sword.

 

[Sufjon]

Nah i believe some have satan as their inner most core.

Why am I not surprised.

Jesus fulfilled the law. Therefore we aren’t under its authority anymore, we’re under the grace provided by Jesus. That doesn’t mean you dismiss God’s laws, it means we aren’t sanctified by the law anymore, we’re sanctified by Jesus’ blood.
And one thing Jesus kept is the law we aren’t to pray with pagans.

That is clearly not what He said. He said they were in effect until heaven and earth were no more. Last time I checked, heaven and earth are still very much in existence. Now, I agree that it is a rather curious thing for Jesus to say, but if the gospels are correct, then this is indeed what He said. There are hundreds or Jewish laws. Many of them are barbaric and incomprehensible to the modern mind. According to this passage, Jesus leaves them in effect. You are free to tell me what leaving the laws in effect until heaven and earth are no more means if it means something other than what it says. If it means something other than what it says, why would Jesus not say what He meant rather than something else?

And what are you doing? You are doing the same no? I assume that they were Jewish, because there is no mention of them being otherwise.

I’m actually not assuming anything. I think that if clarity was needed on the subject of who these people were, it would have been in there.
.

That “dog whistle” is the voice of God. And if following his word and his commandments means you feel i am one dimensional then that is fine. You can’t twist what God and Jesus said in both the ot and nt. And i don;t care if i get called a isolationist because i choose to follow Gods words and not mans.

Where have I twisted anything from the OT or NT? Can you be specific? I can be specific where you have. I gave you the chapter where Jesus said that the Jewish laws - EVERY LETTER was to be in effect until heaven and earth are no more. You response was something to the effect that, well, He changed all of that. That looks like scripture twisting to me. So. I have shown you where you did it, please show me where I did it if you would please.

As a side note: I am starting to find this discussion tiresome and really of no interest to me whether Christians pray with me or not. It’s nice if they do, and a great idea from the Pope, but it’s nothing I really need. Christians spend enough time fighting among one another. Getting wrapped around the axle with my faith would just add to your woes, and most of us couldn’t care less anyway. They wouldn’t put up with the annoyance. I do it because I am a slave to morbid curiosity. It’s one of my faults.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[latin_rite]

Why am I not surprised.

Don’t know, don’t care.

That is clearly not what He said. He said they were in effect until heaven and earth were no more. Last time I checked, heaven and earth are still very much in existence. Now, I agree that it is a rather curious thing for Jesus to say, but if the gospels are correct, then this is indeed what He said. There are hundreds or Jewish laws. Many of them are barbaric and incomprehensible to the modern mind. According to this passage, Jesus leaves them in effect. You are free to tell me what leaving the laws in effect until heaven and earth are no more means if it means something other than what it says. If it means something other than what it says, why would Jesus not say what He meant rather than something else?

Do i as a Christian have to stop eating pork or shellfish, do i have to circumcise my sons?

I’m actually not assuming anything. I think that if clarity was needed on the subject of who these people were, it would have been in there.

Exactly right. It is even clearer now they were Jews.
.

Where have I twisted anything from the OT or NT? Can you be specific? I can be specific where you have. I gave you the chapter where Jesus said that the Jewish laws - EVERY LETTER was to be in effect until heaven and earth are no more. You response was something to the effect that, well, He changed all of that. That looks like scripture twisting to me. So. I have shown you where you did it, please show me where I did it if you would please.

Did Jesus say that is ok to pray with pagans? Did God say it was ok to pray with pagans?
Show me where the answer is yes to either of those two questions.

As a side note: I am starting to find this discussion tiresome and really of no interest to me whether Christians pray with me or not. It’s nice if they do, and a great idea from the Pope, but it’s nothing I really need. Christians spend enough time fighting among one another.

What we really have a enough of. Is people who aren;t even Christian who clearly know nothing of the faith, trying to tell us what God did or didn’t say. Then go getting all upset, because we still choose to follow God instead of some childish pagan rubbish.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

there you go with that Jesus AND God stuff again!

latin_rite:
Did Jesus say that is ok to pray with pagans? Did God say it was ok to pray with pagans?
Show me where the answer is yes to either of those two questions.

.

 

[latin_rite]

there you go with that Jesus AND God stuff again!

Did Jesus say that is ok to pray with pagans? Did God say it was ok to pray with pagans?
Show me where the answer is yes to either of those two questions.

.

I get the feeling, if i was to say. God said “'I feel sorry for all these people; they have been with me for three days now and have nothing to eat.”
He would be the type to say, No Jesus said that, then go off on a whole new topic. So i like to try and keep it precis as i can.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Jesus is God, it’s the Trinity! I’m just giving you a bad time. God bless ya, latin rite!

latin_rite:
I get the feeling, if i was to say. God said “'I feel sorry for all these people; they have been with me for three days now and have nothing to eat.”
He would be the type to say, No Jesus said that, then go off on a whole new topic. So i like to try and keep it precis as i can.

 

[Sufjon]

Do i as a Christian have to stop eating pork or shellfish, do i have to circumcise my sons?

I only sent you what Jesus said about the laws. You keep dancing around answering that. Asking me if that means you can’t eat shellfish is an obfuscation and avoidance of the subject. I am only asking you tell me what He meant when He said that. Did Jesus say what the gospels quote Him as saying about the laws, and if He did, why are you not following those laws? Simple question. I am only asking you if you will answer it. If you can’t or won’t, then just tell me so.

BTW -pork is bad for you and be careful with shellfish.

Did Jesus say that is ok to pray with pagans? Did God say it was ok to pray with pagans?
Show me where the answer is yes to either of those two questions.

I do not believe He said it was ok. I do not believe He said it wasn’t. I simply don’t think He said anything about an inter-faith prayer event. You are constructing that opinion based on this piece of scripture and that, and patching them together to support a holier than thou attitude about the rest of God’s children.

What we really have a enough of. Is people who aren;t even Christian who clearly know nothing of the faith, trying to tell us what God did or didn’t say. Then go getting all upset, because we still choose to follow God instead of some childish pagan rubbish.

Well if it makes you feel closer to God to envision me being upset or something, then what can I say? My actual feelings are more a matter curiosity than anything else. I am only trying to understand your view on the spiritual gains of segregation, separatism, exclusivity and a touch of superiority in one’s attitude in regards to God’s children of other faiths. Calling other people’s faiths rubbish doesn’t make them rubbish. It only reveals the seeds of rubbish in the hearts of the ones who see things that way. There is but one God. People reach out to Him in this way and that. I am wondering what the spiritual benefits are of prancing around a website making unkind comments about the faiths of others and hi-fivin’ your buddies about it like you have scored some sort of spiritual goal in doing so. Again, it is more of a curiosity to me than anything else. I am curious - explain that to me if you would be so kind.

Your friend
Sufjon