Pope's call for interfaith day of prayer provokes debate

[Roy5]

A couple points

I'm a Christian, but one who believes in a big tent. I certainly don't think that God cares all that much which church we attend or the assortment of doctrines we embrace. 

The Pope is right to invite those of other faiths to join in an interfaith day of prayer. I would feel warmer toward Benedict XVI, however, if he had not said that Protestant churches were not real churches but 'ecclesial assemblies' and also stated that Protestant ministers were not conducting authentically Christian communion services. There is an arrogance in some corners of Catholicism (and Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy) that can be annoying.

 There used to be in this community a rather large observance of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity in mid-January. That seems to have melted away, which is sad. The women still gather several times a year for Church Women United, originally a Protestant group, now with considerable Catholic leadership and involvement.

 I have studied comparative religions for some years (and used to teach it in college), and there is wisdom and insight in all religions. The problem is that they often become very tribal - our tribe is favored by God and yours isn't! True religion should be a bridge rather than a barrier. We have to beware that Christianity and Judaism are not misrepresented by extremists, as has sadly happened in Islam. There are hyper-Christians and hyper-Jews who have similar tendencies. 

Too often religion proclaims that it is for love, tolerance and peace while actually promoting bigotry, discrimination and violence. 

 My personal background is a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage. However, over the years I have felt alienated by the form of Catholicism which claims that it alone has the full truth of the gospel and also that form of Protestantism which is equally dogmatic - fundamentalism. I have been inclined to be attracted to mainline Protestantism which generally has plenty of room for various opinions, where Bible study isn't mainly to indoctrinate but to elicit different opinions and encourage personal evaluation.

 But, God bless people of every creed, color, culture and country - and those who claim to be atheists as well. "Think and let think" as John Wesley said. "If you love God as I love God, let us join hands and walk together." Good idea.

 

[Reuben_J]

I have been inclined to be attracted to mainline Protestantism which generally has plenty of room for various opinions, where Bible study isn’t mainly to indoctrinate but to elicit different opinions and encourage personal evaluation.

Do Protestants really do this with the Bible? In some ways it explains why some people use Biblical verses to quarrel and to justify their argument.

 

[Sufjon]

No has had called you a dog or said that you worshipped cabbage patch dolls. No One threw random quotes of scripture at you. But because of this post i will have to call you a liar.

No, you didn’t call say those things directly, but I got your message pretty clearly. I’m not here to fight, so let it rest if you would please.

I got your other message too - you don’t believe in inter-faith prayer. That is fine with me as well. Personally, I think it would be good for a lot of people, but I don’t need it myself. I don’t like formal organizations like churches anyway.I would rather deal with people as people. God didn’t make Christians, Muslims, Hindus or whatever. He made people. All these other things are what people put in place. I’m not a huge follower of Jesus, but I bet that if he stuck around in human form for another two thousand years he wouldn’t have put two stones together to build a church. I do not believe this is what He was after. People did all that. They missed the point when they had Him in their midst, and my sense is that for the most part, they are missing it still.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not knowing you well, Sufjon, are you Hindu? What is your current religion and are you considering becoming Christian or just here to learn about it out of interest?

You choose any topic and we’ll go with it…

Hi Gurneyhalleck: I am familiar with all of the issues you have mentioned. They exist in the minds of as many mainstream Hindus as they do among mainstream Christians. I would say that perhaps there are a few million people who see it the way I do, and then about a billion Hindus who think Christianity is full of bull and about a billion Christians who think Hindus and everyone else are full of bull. Most couldn’t be bothered with the other. Personally, I don’t even like the labels.

Anyway, each of the topics you mentioned could fill a book in discussion, which is why I was hoping to go one thing at a time so they could be discussed properly as I mentioned. Each is a huge topic on it’s own. Is there one in particular you’d like to start with? Over time we could move through each one. As a housekeeping item, should we start another thread? Our discussion is vaguely on topic, but I’m not sure how much.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[dzheremi]

Roy5,

I am blown away by your words. Do you realize their implications?

you:

I certainly don’t think that God cares all that much which church we attend or the assortment of doctrines we embrace.

Really?

I have studied comparative religions for some years (and used to teach it in college)

Why would someone who thinks God doesn’t care what we believe teach a class about religion?

But, God bless people of every creed, color, culture and country - and those who claim to be atheists as well.

Heresy. “Creed, color, culture and country” have nothing to do with anything and are meaningless in light of Galatians 3:28 and similar passages, but atheists are another story. The active rejection of God is not something to be blessed. You are doing the anti-Christ’s work, and that’s not me saying that, that’s GOD’S WORD in the Holy Bible saying that in 1 John 4:3.

As for your quote, here is one to mull over:

*Glory be to you, oh Only-Begotten One, oh Holy Trinity, have mercy upon us
Glory be to you, oh lover of mankind
Let God arise, and let all His enemies, and let all that hate His holy name flee from before His face
Glory be to you, oh lover of mankind
As for your people, let them be blessed a thousand-thousandfold and ten thousand ten thousandfold doing you will…
*

(From the English Midnight Praise as chanted in the Coptic Orthodox Church at Saint Antony Monastery in the California desert, available for free in mp3 format here: “Arise, oh children of the light…”)

 

[DavidKays]

I am a Greek Orthodox Christian and I support His Holiness Benedict XVI willingness to make contacts of people of other faiths. We need to get the know the other guy and I don’t mean we are to accept their beliefs as our own but we can at least try to make contacts and friendships so that in these contacts they can see us and this will enable Jesus to help them through us. I live in my city and at times I meet with alot of people. In one store I am in contact with a sincere middle age moslem man and because I know who he is I will try to engage in discussions that will help us to become friends. In this way I can relate to him some of my Christian beliefs and compare it with his own Islamic beliefs. One time I was telling him about fasting and how in my Church the discilpline of fasting can lead many Orthodox as the most anemic group of people on the planet. I am now taking iron pills to strengthen my red cells again! He refered to his own fasting that he does 1 month of the year. So I am beginning to conversate and share with him my faith while listening to him about his own faith. Now he has someone to talk to and I can at times share with him my beliefs. This is what I believe the Pope is doing. Two Thumbs up for the Pope!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Nobody is saying that it’s wrong to dialogue with non-Christian religions. That is a good thing for sure. We can never win converts to the faith or witness to non-Christians if we shun them and avoid them at all costs forever. HOWEVER, that being said, praying with them is not an option. Prayer with them is a communal activity and is stepping over the line into dangerous acquiescence IMO. It surrenders the uniqueness and sovereignty of our Lord and blurs the lines far too greatly. To get Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and all religious groups to work soup kitchens and orphanages, to get all these religions to meet together and talk about solutions to peace and better understanding, to meet together to stop gangs and crime and help the poor and disenfranchized as well as meet to agree on a common enemy like ABORTION, that is not only good, it’s awesome!

But to pray together, that is another matter and this interfaith day of prayer to many folks is selling out. I know it is to me and I find it disturbing. Ecumenism and dialogue and peaceful exchanges of ideas and working together against common foes is a whole other matter.

I am a Greek Orthodox Christian and I support His Holiness Benedict XVI willingness to make contacts of people of other faiths. We need to get the know the other guy and I don’t mean we are to accept their beliefs as our own but we can at least try to make contacts and friendships so that in these contacts they can see us and this will enable Jesus to help them through us. I live in my city and at times I meet with alot of people. In one store I am in contact with a sincere middle age moslem man and because I know who he is I will try to engage in discussions that will help us to become friends. In this way I can relate to him some of my Christian beliefs and compare it with his own Islamic beliefs. One time I was telling him about fasting and how in my Church the discilpline of fasting can lead many Orthodox as the most anemic group of people on the planet. I am now taking iron pills to strengthen my red cells again! He refered to his own fasting that he does 1 month of the year. So I am beginning to conversate and share with him my faith while listening to him about his own faith. Now he has someone to talk to and I can at times share with him my beliefs. This is what I believe the Pope is doing. Two Thumbs up for the Pope!

 

[seeker57]

You said the Pope doing an interfaith prayer speaks volumes, as if, he was validating your claim that all paths lead to God. The Church does NOT teach this. And this is the objection by some Catholics to him doing it.
The only good that could come out of it is if people such as yourself and the misguided souls that will be offering “prayer” at Assisi converted due to the Pope’s heed that it is necessary for their salvation. This should be THE prayer.

Jews were anger at the Pope for not removing a conversion prayer in the Liturgy.
Muslims were mad because he said violence was against the will of God.
Any kind of “peace” that comes out of the meeting (if any) is, like Jesus said, a false, worldy peace.
Jesus is the only means of TRUE peace. He is the prince of Peace!

A interfaith prayer is pointless. It will not bring about true peace. It will not stop Muslims or Hindus from slaughtering Christians. Admonishing sinners to repent and believe in the gospel message of Jesus Christ, like Peter did, is what will bring true peace.
I really don’t understand the Pope’s logic. Perhaps he got bad advice. He has enough to concern himself with within the Church. Him going to Assisi only adds to more of the confusion among Faithful Catholics and sends a mixed message to those outside the Church, IMHO.

Belonging to a church that is non-doctrinal allows me the opportunity to see that the divine is greater than any single doctrine can define, including Christianity, or that any human being can perceive, including myself.

It is not a claim, it is a belief, and, it is as valid as the beliefs you hold. This doesn’t make either of us wrong, it just means we differ.

Just as an aside, isn’t the pope considered to be infallible? If that is true, wouldn’t that make those who think him wrong and publicly say so in violation of some doctrine?

Just curious.

Seeker

 

[dzheremi]

Belonging to a “church” that is “non-doctrinal” means you don’t belong to a church. Christianity is certainly NOT just one of many belief systems all with equally valid claims to the truth. This is the great heresy of relativism which is the cancer of our age, and is absolutely opposed to any beliefs in anything at all. It is nihilism in so many seemingly caring and careful words. That you and many others don’t see through it is not really surprising. It certainly is more attractive to modern man than the alternative. That the Pope seems to some to be endorsing it is…well…I know what board I’m on, so I’ll just say it’s something he should address to his people, many of whom are clearly concerned about it.

 

[Harpazo]

Nobody is saying that it’s wrong to dialogue with non-Christian religions. That is a good thing for sure. We can never win converts to the faith or witness to non-Christians if we shun them and avoid them at all costs forever. HOWEVER, that being said, praying with them is not an option. Prayer with them is a communal activity and is stepping over the line into dangerous acquiescence IMO. It surrenders the uniqueness and sovereignty of our Lord and blurs the lines far too greatly. To get Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and all religious groups to work soup kitchens and orphanages, to get all these religions to meet together and talk about solutions to peace and better understanding, to meet together to stop gangs and crime and help the poor and disenfranchized as well as meet to agree on a common enemy like ABORTION, that is not only good, it’s awesome!

But to pray together, that is another matter and this interfaith day of prayer to many folks is selling out. I know it is to me and I find it disturbing. Ecumenism and dialogue and peaceful exchanges of ideas and working together against common foes is a whole other matter.

Scott,

This is exactly what the fruit of ecumenism is! The origins of the word are Greek, and it means a type of universalism. Less than 1000 years ago, the Roman Empire in the East considered itself to be the Ecumenical Throne, meaning the universal throne, or the main point of the empire for the entire world.

Ecumenism is basically trying to tell us that we are all the same and should just accept that fact and all worship together, because it’s the goal in mind we all share and blah, blah, blah. I think it’s poisonous, personally. I know you don’t like me suggesting Orthodox sources or things like that, but a great book was written on the subject about 30 years ago or so by an Orthodox Saint from California that is near and dear to my heart.

It’s called Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future and it is an excellent, excellent book and if you can get past it being an Orthodox writer, I think you’ll enjoy it. He, along with others before him, wrote that these ideas of a ecumenism are paving the way for the Antichrist because it eventually leads to this ambiguous Hindu-esque idea that there are many paths to God (or gods, pick your flavor) and it doesn’t matter what you worship or how you worship, or what you believe or how you live.

In the late 1970s when he wrote the book, there was a lot of craziness going on even then. How much more so are we under this increasingly heavy yoke today? For example, Methodists were celebrating pagan festivals without any of their bishops (who knew) batting an eye and sadly some of our RC and Orthodox brethren are ignorant when they advocate for us “to worship with our Christian brothers and sisters across denominational lines.”

The truth is, many of our so-called Christian brothers and sisters could be doing things like this and we aren’t admonishing them in love, trying to bring them to the Truth, but accepting them wholly for who they are. I’m not saying we should ignore them, or hate them, but we should be ever vigilant and cautious with any sort of ecumenism. I am not a fan of it by any means and am glad that my Church condemns it outright.

Anyway, I guess I’m done with my little rant. I just cringe whenever I hear these things.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[DavidKays]

Nobody is saying that it’s wrong to dialogue with non-Christian religions. That is a good thing for sure. We can never win converts to the faith or witness to non-Christians if we shun them and avoid them at all costs forever. HOWEVER, that being said, praying with them is not an option. Prayer with them is a communal activity and is stepping over the line into dangerous acquiescence IMO. It surrenders the uniqueness and sovereignty of our Lord and blurs the lines far too greatly. To get Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and all religious groups to work soup kitchens and orphanages, to get all these religions to meet together and talk about solutions to peace and better understanding, to meet together to stop gangs and crime and help the poor and disenfranchized as well as meet to agree on a common enemy like ABORTION, that is not only good, it’s awesome!

But to pray together, that is another matter and this interfaith day of prayer to many folks is selling out. I know it is to me and I find it disturbing. Ecumenism and dialogue and peaceful exchanges of ideas and working together against common foes is a whole other matter.

The Pope does not feel so and so do I. I support the endevours of the Holy Father. I am suprised that Catholics do not support him. His endevours if followed will help unite the Church and hopefully convert this world. I am suprise that you a Catholic do not support your own Pope. Strange. ( By the way this is not a Communion Service. It is only a prayer meeting service. That’s all. Even Catholics engage with Protestants during this time of year so that Christians of all Faiths can come together. It is about time Catholics have done this. I salut His Holiness and his courage to wake up the Catholic Church )

 

[dzheremi]

As an aside, the negative reviews of Fr. Seraphim’s book (which I haven’t read, so I can’t endorse or warn against) seem rather odd. The opening line of one of them: “I am an Orthodox Christian, first of all. I am not a fan of Fr Seraphim Rose at all. He is the perfect embodiment of hyper-traditionalism, xenophobia and ultra-orthodoxy.”

Umm…“I’m an Orthodox Christian, but this guy…man, he is HYPER-TRADITIONAL about it! I mean, geez…what is UP with that?”

It really makes you wonder, doesn’t it? Will the real Christianity please stand up?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Just call me Dr. Strange, then. I could just as easily find it “strange” that you, as an Orthodox Christian, are so quick to support a pope, especially in such an odd, synergistic, questionable endeavor as “praying” with non-Christians! Tell me, while you’re standing there praying with a Hindu who is praying to Vishnu or Shiva and a Buddhist who is praying to a bodhisattva to help him annihilate the atman within him, or standing with the atheist who is “praying” to reason and intellect alone, what would be your feeling? Would Jesus be in there somewhere mixed in with all these false gods or would all the gods hear our prayers? Would it be like Mt. Olympus and Jesus is but one of the pantheon mixed with the others or…? Surely as an Orthodox believer that isn’t the case, right? Then how do you condone PRAYING with non-Christians TOGETHER? Like I said, charity, fighting alongside non-Christians against abortion or for a just world, great! Praying together? No way! How can you justify this? It would’ve been like Augustine or Ambrose after their conversion meeting with high priests of Mithras or Magna Mater and praying with them in their temples where the blood of bulls was let loose amidst sacrifices and pagan earth festivals. It’s madness IMO.

The Pope does not feel so and so do I. I support the endevours of the Holy Father. I am suprised that Catholics do not support him. His endevours if followed will help unite the Church and hopefully convert this world. I am suprise that you a Catholic do not support your own Pope. Strange. ( By the way this is not a Communion Service. It is only a prayer meeting service. That’s all. Even Catholics engage with Protestants during this time of year so that Christians of all Faiths can come together. It is about time Catholics have done this. I salut His Holiness and his courage to wake up the Catholic Church )

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Andrew,

I’m not opposed to reading Orthodox sources. As I’ve said before, I have a few books in my library by Orthodox authors and enjoy them, especially Meyendorff’s stuff. I don’t hate the Orthodox by a longshot. If I could be Orthodox without having to buy into the view of the Atonement and Original Sin that I hear so frequently, I’d be ok to some degree. I don’t like the views on the Atonement. They bug me. I embrace an Anselmian view and Augustinian view of Original Sin. I respect the Orthodox far more than I disagree with them and I certainly don’t resent them.

I agree with what you say here in your post about the dangers of excessive ecumenism historically. It is a danger. I do think Christians need to come together more. But doctrine and truth trump unity for sure.

God bless

Scott,

This is exactly what the fruit of ecumenism is! The origins of the word are Greek, and it means a type of universalism. Less than 1000 years ago, the Roman Empire in the East considered itself to be the Ecumenical Throne, meaning the universal throne, or the main point of the empire for the entire world.

Ecumenism is basically trying to tell us that we are all the same and should just accept that fact and all worship together, because it’s the goal in mind we all share and blah, blah, blah. I think it’s poisonous, personally. I know you don’t like me suggesting Orthodox sources or things like that, but a great book was written on the subject about 30 years ago or so by an Orthodox Saint from California that is near and dear to my heart.

It’s called Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future and it is an excellent, excellent book and if you can get past it being an Orthodox writer, I think you’ll enjoy it. He, along with others before him, wrote that these ideas of a ecumenism are paving the way for the Antichrist because it eventually leads to this ambiguous Hindu-esque idea that there are many paths to God (or gods, pick your flavor) and it doesn’t matter what you worship or how you worship, or what you believe or how you live.

In the late 1970s when he wrote the book, there was a lot of craziness going on even then. How much more so are we under this increasingly heavy yoke today? For example, Methodists were celebrating pagan festivals without any of their bishops (who knew) batting an eye and sadly some of our RC and Orthodox brethren are ignorant when they advocate for us “to worship with our Christian brothers and sisters across denominational lines.”

The truth is, many of our so-called Christian brothers and sisters could be doing things like this and we aren’t admonishing them in love, trying to bring them to the Truth, but accepting them wholly for who they are. I’m not saying we should ignore them, or hate them, but we should be ever vigilant and cautious with any sort of ecumenism. I am not a fan of it by any means and am glad that my Church condemns it outright.

Anyway, I guess I’m done with my little rant. I just cringe whenever I hear these things.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[DavidKays]

Just call me Dr. Strange, then. I could just as easily find it “strange” that you, as an Orthodox Christian, are so quick to support a pope, especially in such an odd, synergistic, questionable endeavor as “praying” with non-Christians! Tell me, while you’re standing there praying with a Hindu who is praying to Vishnu or Shiva and a Buddhist who is praying to a bodhisattva to help him annihilate the atman within him, or standing with the atheist who is “praying” to reason and intellect alone, what would be your feeling? Would Jesus be in there somewhere mixed in with all these false gods or would all the gods hear our prayers? Would it be like Mt. Olympus and Jesus is but one of the pantheon mixed with the others or…? Surely as an Orthodox believer that isn’t the case, right? Then how do you condone PRAYING with non-Christians TOGETHER? Like I said, charity, fighting alongside non-Christians against abortion or for a just world, great! Praying together? No way! How can you justify this? It would’ve been like Augustine or Ambrose after their conversion meeting with high priests of Mithras or Magna Mater and praying with them in their temples where the blood of bulls was let loose amidst sacrifices and pagan earth festivals. It’s madness IMO.

Try not to be so carried away with this. The Pope is not changing. Be open more to what the mind of this man is telling you. You know if only the Catholic laypeople be more knowledgable of their Popes I really believe all this nonsense of our Churches been disunited and the reactions we have with other religions will end. I wish Catholics will imitate their Popes more but I see why Jesus has so hard of a time trying to unite this world. We seem to clash and misunderstand the motives of saintly and holy men like your Pope and because of this we undermine the efforts of these holy men by picking faults about them. You may have greviances because of your own understanding to what you have been taught and they are realistic but try to understand that your Pope is just coming together with other individuals to engage in fellowship and mutual understanding. He wants others to know he is thinking about them. The Pope is not only the Holy Father for us Christians but he is particularly a father to the rest of the planet. By showing his care of being a father does not tarnish his own belief in Jesus Christ. He wants everyone have what he has. If you have children who you need to know and yet they are not in agreement with your own teachings will you not at least meet with them once in awhile because you do care for them and hopefully through your fatherly giudance they will see that you do and hopefully begin to understand that what you possess can also be theirs as well.

 

[latin_rite]

No, you didn’t call say those things directly, but I got your message pretty clearly. I’m not here to fight, so let it rest if you would please.

1. I’ll let it rest. Just don’t accuse me of something i didn’t do.

I got your other message too - you don’t believe in inter-faith prayer. That is fine with me as well. Personally, I think it would be good for a lot of people, but I don’t need it myself. I don’t like formal organizations like churches anyway.I would rather deal with people as people.

No i believe in inter faith prayer. Just not inter religion prayer. I will pray with a baptist, a anglican, a non denom christian. Any day of the week.

God didn’t make Christians, Muslims, Hindus or whatever. He made people. All these other things are what people put in place.

God put these things in place, when Christ said we were to follow him and nothing else.

I’m not a huge follower of Jesus,

Probably explains your confusion on this matter.

but I bet that if he stuck around in human form for another two thousand years he wouldn’t have put two stones together to build a church. I do not believe this is what He was after.

Well why did Jesus tell Peter to build the Church?
People did all that. They missed the point when they had Him in their midst, and my sense is that for the most part, they are missing it still.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Not knowing you well, Sufjon, are you Hindu? What is your current religion and are you considering becoming Christian or just here to learn about it out of interest?

You choose any topic and we’ll go with it…

Hi Gurneyhalleck: I don’t belong to any church, because for me they are a distraction. As far as a particular religion goes, I have asked myself the same question. On a practical level I see myself as a Monistic Idealist, but that isn’t any sort of formal organization. It’s just a school of thought, and not a very big one. If you are familiar with Emerson, Thoreau, Melville, Jung, and Aldous Huxley, then these would be some the people who influenced my thinking over the course of my life. If I were forced to pick a religion, it would be Hinduism, because you could rightly fit every other religion into it. You could not do the reverse. Specifically, I could walk into a Hindu temple and tell them that I am a devotee of Jesus and have come to their temple to worship Him, and they would most often say “good - sit down and get to work!” If I walked into St. Thomas More Catholic Church and and said that I was a devotee of Krishna, and had come to worship Him, I would probably be told to take that outside. Only one faith that I know of is capable of seeing the multifarious nature of God’s permutations.

I am here because I don’t see the boundaries. Even if it is different than mine, someone else’s experience of God is an experience of God nonetheless. I like to learn about them. If someone thinks God is fully present in the person next to them and in every living thing, then that is what they believe. If someone thinks He is only fully present in the Eucharist, then that is their experience. It is not up to me to say that one is right for that person and another is not. Each of them has their path. I am not here to disturb those paths, but to ask about them and of course share my thoughts as well.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Mickey]

HOWEVER, that being said, praying with them is not an option.

Exactly!

 

[Mickey]

I am suprised that Catholics do not support him.

The Catholics here do not support this type of ecumenism–and they are correct in opposing it.

 

[Mickey]

try to understand that your Pope is just coming together with other individuals to engage in fellowship and mutual understanding.

He is praying with sects who worship false gods.