Pope's call for interfaith day of prayer provokes debate

[roveau]

I fully support Pope Benedict XVI in this wonderful endeavor. To pray for the spirit of St. Assisi to spread throughout the world can do nothing but aid the cause of Jesus Christ and his Gospel of Peace.

I am aware of very good men who oppose this direction, but I also think those same men are shortsighted and overly zealous; their foundation is not built upon faith that the Will of God will be done or in the Hope that is found in Christ Jesus. I know these are hard words for those who oppose this endeavor of the pope, but they are true none-the-less.

I also applaud Pope Benedict XVI for calling together this event. He is being led by the Holy Spirit. What a chance also for the Catholic Church to shine at Assisi. What an honour to St Francis this will be.

All Catholics should be proud to pray with the Pope in this.

The media and critics will of course make ingenious cases for why this is a bad idea.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Have you read any of this thread at all? Do you see the legitimate concerns of folks on this thread as to why this is a dangerous idea? Do you find prayer with a Hindu who is praying to Shiva healthy? Is the Great Commission of Christ to go out and pray with Muslims to Allah? Did the saints get martyred for praying alongside Neo-Platonists or Manichees or Gnostics to their gods? How on earth can you find this healthy and laud it while ignoring the sound arguments presented by so many in here? You don’t explain why and how this is Christian or morally acceptable? Can you find a precedent for it?

I also applaud Pope Benedict XVI for calling together this event. He is being led by the Holy Spirit. What a chance also for the Catholic Church to shine at Assisi. What an honour to St Francis this will be.

All Catholics should be proud to pray with the Pope in this.

The media and critics will of course make ingenious cases for why this is a bad idea.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Preach it, Jeremy, especially your condemnation of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, a truly monstrous apparition!

Indeed we are, and the reality is that no non-Christian religion worships the true God, which is the undivided and uncreated Holy Trinity. Not Islam’s Allah, not Hinduism’s Vishnu, not aggressive atheism’s Flying Spaghetti Monster – only the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

That’s not the issue here. For the millionth time, the issue is in praying with non-believers, and thereby validating their false religions and false Gods

There’s quite a bit more to it than that, and you’re being disingenuous presenting it the way you do.

 

[JeanMichel]

Indeed we are, and the reality is that no non-Christian religion worships the true God, which is the undivided and uncreated Holy Trinity. Not Islam’s Allah, not Hinduism’s Vishnu, not aggressive atheism’s Flying Spaghetti Monster – only the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

That’s not the issue here. For the millionth time, the issue is in praying with non-believers, and thereby validating their false religions and false Gods

There’s quite a bit more to it than that, and you’re being disingenuous presenting it the way you do.

It is disingenuous to present it that way? Why, because it demonstrates how weak the foundation is upon which you have built your complaints against the Pope? What is so wrong about praying to God about Peace at Assisi at the same time other religions will pray for peace? How bad would it be to have a Muslim stand next to a Christian and pray to Allah for peace? (God forbid that Christians and Muslims would pray for peace together!)

There is no issue, but the one you have created. It is being rebellious without having a cause. The issue is praying at the same time as others for peace without regard for their religion, their God, or their faith. Goodness knows if a Catholic and a JW or Anglican, or Baptist had to pray together for peace. Even worse, praying at the same time as those Hindus, Shintoists, Quakers, Jains, etc. will make us Catholics appears…dare I say tolerant! God forbid. Put down your breathing fire and brimstone, join the Pope in a prayer for peace. I promise you it will not hurt. Yes, you can wear blinders so that you don’t have see those other nasty people praying at the same time. We can all take a bath afterwords to wash off the cooties from being around those infidels who had the termity to pray for peace at the same time as you and everyone else.

Really, you must see how poor this position of yours is?

 

[dzheremi]

There is no more that I or anyone can say to anyone who is determined to go against the Holy Gospel in favor of their own emotional responses and desires of how they’d like monotheism or the world to be. If my position is “weak” and “poor”, then please condemn the apostle Paul, as he taught me this lesson in his writings to the Church in Corinth by reminding them that Christ has no accord with Belial. With humility, I must admit the high likelihood that I have erroneously said more than this, but I do not think that I have said any less. This is in keeping with what I think the bare minimum of Christian belief must be – in the Father, who is the origin of all; in Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten, the Incarnate Word; and in the Holy Spirit, which guided the apostles in the writing of the Holy Scripture, which they handed down to us through actions performed with great conviction that Jesus Christ is GOD and anything else is unacceptable.

By all means disagree with me on all counts, but do not ignore 2 Timothy 4:3, which sums up the depth of my objections and is unavoidable, as it is Holy Scripture and it absolutely convicts us of the modern age for our soul-destroying, perverted crippling of the faith:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires”

That is describing this very situation, and those of us who have internalized it shiver when reading the praises of the “inter-faith” religious view and its actions. Do you not see the reason for that?

God have mercy.

 

[shondrea]

Jesus Christ I hate you all. ****ING HYPOCRITS.

OOOH LOOK, the pope condemned secular names which is good cause i don’t like them either so i will condemn you all for not agreeing with the pope!

Oh, the pope did something I don’t like or agree with so I’ll ***** about it!

GOD DAMN IT WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU BITCHES?

 

[JeanMichel]

There is no more that I or anyone can say to anyone who is determined to go against the Holy Gospel in favor of their own emotional responses and desires of how they’d like monotheism or the world to be. If my position is “weak” and “poor”, then please condemn the apostle Paul, as he taught me this lesson in his writings to the Church in Corinth by reminding them that Christ has no accord with Belial. With humility, I must admit the high likelihood that I have erroneously said more than this, but I do not think that I have said any less. This is in keeping with what I think the bare minimum of Christian belief must be – in the Father, who is the origin of all; in Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten, the Incarnate Word; and in the Holy Spirit, which guided the apostles in the writing of the Holy Scripture, which they handed down to us through actions performed with great conviction that Jesus Christ is GOD and anything else is unacceptable.

By all means disagree with me on all counts, but do not ignore 2 Timothy 4:3, which sums up the depth of my objections and is unavoidable, as it is Holy Scripture and it absolutely convicts us of the modern age for our soul-destroying, perverted crippling of the faith:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires”

That is describing this very situation, and those of us who have internalized it shiver when reading the praises of the “inter-faith” religious view and its actions. Do you not see the reason for that?

God have mercy.

Friend, this conversation is ended; there is no further reason for discussion. Suffice it to say we strongly disagree with each other. Go in peace.

 

[rossum]

There is a reason this is controversial and it’s plain as day where many of us are coming from…working side by side with those of other religions to feed the poor, clothe the hungry, fight against abortion and gay “marriage,” etc. is one thing, actually praying with them acknowledging legitimacy to their god is another entirely.

If the Pope praying alongside the Dalai Lama would acknowledge the legitimacy of Buddhism to Catholics then surely the Dalai Lama praying alongside the Pope would acknowledge the legitimacy of God to Buddhists. Would that not be a good thing? Do you not want Buddhists to acknowledge more of the legitimacy of the Christian God?

rossum

 

[rossum]

Indeed we are, and the reality is that no non-Christian religion worships the true God

So, Moses didn’t worship the true God because Moses was a Jew. Hmmm. Let me get back to you on that one.

rossum

 

[Timothy17]

So, Moses didn’t worship the true God because Moses was a Jew. Hmmm. Let me get back to you on that one.

rossum

[15] The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a PROPHET of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear:

[18] I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.

Deuteronomy, 18

“…like to thee,” Moses was a lawgiver, among other things, and established a covenant and a priesthood, etc., but as this passage clearly shows he was aware someone greater was coming, and “him thou shalt hear.”

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[Rascalking]

There is a reason this is controversial and it’s plain as day where many of us are coming from…working side by side with those of other religions to feed the poor, clothe the hungry, fight against abortion and gay “marriage,” etc. is one thing, actually praying with them acknowledging legitimacy to their god is another entirely.

I respectfully disagree (key word-respectfully). I don’t see a problem with praying with other religions, regardless of their social views.

Asking God for guidance and wisdom is fine.

 

[dzheremi]

We have been through this “what about the Jews?” issue over and over in many threads. I was unaware that Contarini had reincarnated as a Buddhist…

 

[Contarini]

We have been through this “what about the Jews?” issue over and over in many threads. I was unaware that Contarini had reincarnated as a Buddhist…

As long as people use either the “Trinity criterion” or the “all-or-nothing criterion” to say that Muslims don’t worship the true God, the issue of the Jews will come up.

We have not really been through this issue. People just keep dodging it. This often happens on this forum. People seem to think that if they dodge an issue they somehow gain the right never to hear about it again. It doesn’t work that way.

I appreciate the fact that you have not been dodging it in recent posts. If you have made up your mind to say flatly that Jews don’t worship the true God, we can then discuss how plausible it is that they stopped worshiping the true God and started worshiping a false god without actually beginning to believe anything different from what they had previously believed. I don’t think I’m alone in finding that concept hard to swallow, and in preferring to say that Jews and Muslims do worship the true God.

But you cannot ever discuss the question of what God Muslims believe without discussing the question of what God Jews believe, since Jews object to the same features of the Christian doctrine of God as Muslims do, and since Jews and Muslims, in my experience, uniformly agree that they worship the same God as each other (and, for that matter, as the Christians).

Edwin

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi rossum,

Seeing as how in the Buddhist panethon a god is but a step toward becoming a Boddhisattva and then ultimately an atman-free-minded Nirvana state, the idea of a “god” in Buddhism is either a stepping stone or, for more orthodox Buddhists, a figment of the imagination or at best agnosticism, I don’t think the relationship of prayer would be healthy, no. A god in Buddhism is an evolutionary step, not ultimate Truth and our origin, our saviour, and our Lord. So I don’t think your hypothetical would take place really.

Blessings to you, rossum

If the Pope praying alongside the Dalai Lama would acknowledge the legitimacy of Buddhism to Catholics then surely the Dalai Lama praying alongside the Pope would acknowledge the legitimacy of God to Buddhists. Would that not be a good thing? Do you not want Buddhists to acknowledge more of the legitimacy of the Christian God?

rossum

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But it’s not due to their “social views,” Rascalking, it’s due to their views of the Godhead Himself. If I am praying to Christ Jesus, the Son of Man and Saviour of mankind, and the guy standing next to me is praying to Hanuman the monkey god of Hinduism, this is not a case of social norms in divergence, but a total disagreement between WHO God is and his very essence, nature, person, and history. “You shall have no other gods before me” is a simple commandment. It would be akin to Moses praying to Yaweah and praying along with the Amalekites praying to Baal or something like that. It would be like Paul praying to Christ holding hands praying along with a priest of the cult of Diana or Artemis. Can you imagine them condoning this? It’s not cultural but serious muddying of the waters with idolatry and pagan worship. It is immoral. It’s not getting together to discuss peace, improving our world, fighting poverty, defending the innocent, feeding the hungry, etc. That would be awesome. But praying together is a serious moral issue that concerns me.

I respectfully disagree (key word-respectfully). I don’t see a problem with praying with other religions, regardless of their social views.

Asking God for guidance and wisdom is fine.

 

[jam070406]

As long as people use either the “Trinity criterion” or the “all-or-nothing criterion” to say that Muslims don’t worship the true God, the issue of the Jews will come up.

We have not really been through this issue. People just keep dodging it. This often happens on this forum. People seem to think that if they dodge an issue they somehow gain the right never to hear about it again. It doesn’t work that way.

I appreciate the fact that you have not been dodging it in recent posts. If you have made up your mind to say flatly that Jews don’t worship the true God, we can then discuss how plausible it is that they stopped worshiping the true God and started worshiping a false god without actually beginning to believe anything different from what they had previously believed. I don’t think I’m alone in finding that concept hard to swallow, and in preferring to say that Jews and Muslims do worship the true God.

But you cannot ever discuss the question of what God Muslims believe without discussing the question of what God Jews believe, since Jews object to the same features of the Christian doctrine of God as Muslims do, and since Jews and Muslims, in my experience, uniformly agree that they worship the same God as each other (and, for that matter, as the Christians).

Edwin

Then you believe the Koran is the Divinely inspired word of Almighty God?

 

[dzheremi]

“The Trinity criterion” is nothing less than the acknowledgment of the fact that God has chosen to reveal Himself in that way. This is not some optional belief that may be discarded, passed over, or hushed up should someone have another book or philosophy with which it does not jibe. We are to worship God in spirit and in truth, because we are followers of the true God who has told us that we are to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect (the “all-or-nothing criterion”, for sure). This means, as Christian people, perfect faith, perfect worship, perfect doctrine, perfect fidelity, perfect veneration, perfect supplication before the cross on which Christ DID die, perfect belief in His resurrection…perfect, perfect, perfect! We ourselves will never be perfect, but while we are here on earth, and we have been blessed with belief in perfect God and perfect man (Jesus Christ), there is nothing that should keep us from holding to this standard of belief in our own lives. This includes our interactions with others who hold other beliefs. We love them, we cherish their souls…we do NOT forgive or pardon or rationalize their errors. Such rationalization is of the devil. Only corruption of the perfect faith which we were already given once and for all would require it.

 

[Contarini]

Then you believe the Koran is the Divinely inspired word of Almighty God?

No. Suppose you do for me what I have tried to do for others on this thread: explain just what principle you think I’m upholding which seems to you to imply such a claim.

I think that the Qur’an is a human document which Muhammad and/or his sources and/or editors believed to be the Word of Almighty God. But in putting the sentence that way, I’m assuming that in some sense and to some degree we are speaking of the same Reality when we (Christians and Muslims) debate whether or not the Qur’an is the word of Almighty God.

I recognize that this question is semantic: do we first define God as “the one Creator of the universe and source of the moral law,” and then discuss what books if any He has revealed, or do define God as “the being who revealed the Qur’an” and then discuss whether that being is Almighty God! Of course if you start from the second starting point, the answer I’ll give is going to be “no.”

But theologically as well as for reasons of religious diplomacy we need to proceed in the first way and not in the second.

 

[jam070406]

No. Suppose you do for me what I have tried to do for others on this thread: explain just what principle you think I’m upholding which seems to you to imply such a claim.

I think that the Qur’an is a human document which Muhammad and/or his sources and/or editors believed to be the Word of Almighty God. But in putting the sentence that way, I’m assuming that in some sense and to some degree we are speaking of the same Reality when we (Christians and Muslims) debate whether or not the Qur’an is the word of Almighty God.

I recognize that this question is semantic: do we first define God as “the one Creator of the universe and source of the moral law,” and then discuss what books if any He has revealed, or do define God as “the being who revealed the Qur’an” and then discuss whether that being is Almighty God! Of course if you start from the second starting point, the answer I’ll give is going to be “no.”

But theologically as well as for reasons of religious diplomacy we need to proceed in the first way and not in the second.

They are obediant to, and worship, the second.

 

[Contarini]

“The Trinity criterion” is nothing less than the acknowledgment of the fact that God has chosen to reveal Himself in that way.

I wouldn’t say that God “chose” to reveal Himself that way. I would say that God “is” that way. I suppose He “chose” in the sense that he could possibly have chosen to reveal Himself less perfectly or not at all. But I’m not sure that such a choice would be compatible with God’s character. Obviously He could have chosen to wait longer to reveal Himself in that way. . . . but the Trinity isn’t a choice God makes. The Trinity is who God is. We have no disagreement on this, nor has anything I said in any way logically implied otherwise. Nor have you even attempted to show how what I’m saying has these implications. You just assume that it has.

If this is your revenge for my calling you a Marcionite when we first tangled on this issue–well, I deserve it. But the truth deserves better from both of us. I apologize for calling you a Marcionite, I used that label because the other alternative consequences of your position seem implausible or impossible to me. But that wasn’t good enough. What I need to do–and have been trying to do over and over–is to show you why I think the other alternatives are implausible or impossible. Please do the same thing for me. Explain why I can’t say that an imperfect knowledge of God is still an imperfect knowledge of the true God.

This is not some optional belief that may be discarded, passed over, or hushed up should someone have another book or philosophy with which it does not jibe.

No disagreement.

This includes our interactions with others who hold other beliefs. We love them, we cherish their souls…we do NOT forgive or pardon or rationalize their errors. Such rationalization is of the devil. Only corruption of the perfect faith which we were already given once and for all would require it.

I’m not sure what “forgive or pardon or rationalize their errors” is supposed to mean. I don’t think it’s up to me to forgive other people’s errors. It is up to me to speak the truth in love about them. That means that I describe them as I see them, but that I err on the side of giving them the benefit of the doubt when possible. You and I clearly disagree on when that is possible in the case of Islam. Let’s disagree without assuming that the other person has bad moral character for disagreeing, and let’s share with each other our reasons for disagreeing.

Edwin