Pope's call for interfaith day of prayer provokes debate

[Contarini]

They are obediant to, and worship, the second.

But only because they believe that the Qur’an was revealed by the one true God as defined in the first approach.

Your claim is disproved by the fact that Muslims themselves say that we Christians worship the true God. Obviously they think that if we worship the one Creator, then we worship the true God, even though we don’t think that the one Creator revealed the Qur’an.

Now the fact that they think we worship the true God doesn’t automatically mean that we should say the same about them. As Dzheremi and others have pointed out, the Trinity is central to our understanding of God. However, the fact that we say that we worship the same God worshiped by Jews before the coming of Christ (and hence most of us say that Jews still worship the same God we do, though some are willing to deny this), and that the Fathers uniformly identified the supreme Deity of the pagans with the true God–these facts should cause us to say that Muslims worship the true God, but believe erroneous things about Him.

Edwin

 

[ddarko]

But only because they believe that the Qur’an was revealed by the one true God as defined in the first approach.

Your claim is disproved by the fact that Muslims themselves say that we Christians worship the true God. Obviously they think that if we worship the one Creator, then we worship the true God, even though we don’t think that the one Creator revealed the Qur’an.

Now the fact that they think we worship the true God doesn’t automatically mean that we should say the same about them. As Dzheremi and others have pointed out, the Trinity is central to our understanding of God. However, the fact that we say that we worship the same God worshiped by Jews before the coming of Christ (and hence most of us say that Jews still worship the same God we do, though some are willing to deny this), and that the Fathers uniformly identified the supreme Deity of the pagans with the true God–these facts should cause us to say that Muslims worship the true God, but believe erroneous things about Him.

Edwin

In your sense, wouldn’t everyone be worshiping the True God? They just have erroneous ideas about him.

I don’t think thats acceptable at all. A person can worship anything, call it True God and according to you everything is OK now. According to you, why was there EVER a need for God to reveal himself through Christ? He might as well let us do our own little thing.

So no, if someone is worshiping erroneously, you CORRECT them. It might not be so popular in the 21st century but that is how it should be.

Also, the comparison to Jews is not applicable to other religions. The whole point of Christian faith is that Christ is the promise to the Jews fulfilled. That is the only reason we say it is the same God and rightly so. BUT, this does not apply to Muslims in anyway. Islam is a heresy while Judaism is part of Christianity. Two different things.

God Bless

 

[jam070406]

But only because they believe that the Qur’an was revealed by the one true God as defined in the first approach.

Your claim is disproved by the fact that Muslims themselves say that we Christians worship the true God. Obviously they think that if we worship the one Creator, then we worship the true God, even though we don’t think that the one Creator revealed the Qur’an.

Now the fact that they think we worship the true God doesn’t automatically mean that we should say the same about them. As Dzheremi and others have pointed out, the Trinity is central to our understanding of God. However, the fact that we say that we worship the same God worshiped by Jews before the coming of Christ (and hence most of us say that Jews still worship the same God we do, though some are willing to deny this), and that the Fathers uniformly identified the supreme Deity of the pagans with the true God–these facts should cause us to say that Muslims worship the true God, but believe erroneous things about Him.

Edwin

That’s good they believe we worship the True God! Now we need to direct them to the Truth that their book is NOT inspired by God and their worship is directed elsewhere. Then we can instruct them in the Truth and the way the True God wants to be worshipped, love of neighbor and dignity of all human life.

 

[dzheremi]

ddarko: You are so right about the implications of this discussion. That’s what I was trying to get at earlier in the thread by bringing up the admonitions of the Bible against false worship. Apparently to some of us here everything is God to someone, and Christians have no right to say otherwise. Sorry, folks, but that’s NOT Christianity. You either acknowledge Christ as God and worship Him or you don’t worship God at all. Yeah, I agree it’s not nice, but welcome to monotheism, where God is the focus and you and your sensibilities don’t amount to a hill of beans. “He must increase, but I must decrease.” That’s a must!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Simple fact is this wasn’t an event which asked any Christians to compromise their theology or creed. It’s an event hosted by Christians who wished to invite others to pray for World Peace. And doing so in accord with whatever their belief was/is with respect to all others beliefs/Faith.

How athiests wound there is beyond me, but they certainly were not the strangest of the bunch.

 

[dzheremi]

The event itself compromises the Christian faith professed by its creators. No one needed to ask any Christian to compromise their faith; the very fact that they would conceive of it, host it, or attend it shows a compromise of that faith.

 

[Contarini]

In your sense, wouldn’t everyone be worshiping the True God? They just have erroneous ideas about him.

That applies to all monotheists, yes. Anyone who believes in one supreme divinity who is the source of all good is speaking of the true God, however imperfectly.

Early Christians never claimed that pagans thought they were worshiping the true God but weren’t. They consistently blamed pagans for worshiping lesser beings (beings the pagans recognized as lesser) instead of the true God. You find that in Romans, you find that in Justin Martyr, you find that in St. Augustine–I don’t know of any exceptions, though of course someone may prove me wrong!

I don’t think thats acceptable at all. A person can worship anything, call it True God and according to you everything is OK now.

No. First of all, I have said nothing at all about “everything being OK.” I do in fact believe that people who do not explicitly become Christians in this life may be accepted by God. But that does not logically follow from what I’m saying.

Probably, to keep the two issues separate, I should say “speak of the true God” instead of “worship the true God.” If by “worship” we mean “offer worship that actually gets through to the true God,” then that’s a separate issue. For that matter, there are Christians who do not “worship the true God” in that sense. I’m speaking in a strictly linguistic manner–the referent to which Muslims point when they say “Allah” should be understood by Christians to be the true God as imperfectly apprehended by Muslims. This is, as I have pointed out, the linguistic usage of Christians traditionally, including in the very passage from John of Damascus to which Mickey appealed to prove the opposite.

According to you, why was there EVER a need for God to reveal himself through Christ? He might as well let us do our own little thing.

First of all, as I said above, speaking of/worshiping the true God does not imply that a person is in a state of salvation. In the second place, don’t you think God wants us to know Him as perfectly as possible? Your argument makes no sense to me.

So no, if someone is worshiping erroneously, you CORRECT them.

No disagreement (well, on practical terms I would say that you don’t just go around automatically correcting everyone, but certainly in principle, when appropriate, we should do so). Again, nothing I have said remotely applies anything else.

Also, the comparison to Jews is not applicable to other religions.

Yes, it is when the criteria you’re using to say Muslims worship a false god are equally relevant to Jews.

If Muslims worship a false god because they reject the Trinity, then Jews worship a false god too.

That does not mean that Muslims and Jews are equivalent in every way. But in this particular they differ from Christianity in exactly the same way.

The whole point of Christian faith is that Christ is the promise to the Jews fulfilled. That is the only reason we say it is the same God and rightly so.

That makes no sense. If God truly revealed Himself to the Jews, then people who believe what the Jews believe about God believe in the true God.

BUT, this does not apply to Muslims in anyway. Islam is a heresy while Judaism is part of Christianity. Two different things.

I’m confused by this. Heresies are in some sense part of Christianity; and a good case can be made that rabbinic Judaism is a “heresy” too (from the Jewish perspective, of course, it would be the other way round!). It’s hard to see how rabbinic Jews are more “part of Christianity” than Islam–quite the reverse if anything. After all, Jesus does have an important role in Islam, but not in Judaism.

Edwin

 

[jam070406]

That applies to all monotheists, yes. Anyone who believes in one supreme divinity who is the source of all good is speaking of the true God, however imperfectly.

Early Christians never claimed that pagans thought they were worshiping the true God but weren’t. They consistently blamed pagans for worshiping lesser beings (beings the pagans recognized as lesser) instead of the true God. You find that in Romans, you find that in Justin Martyr, you find that in St. Augustine–I don’t know of any exceptions, though of course someone may prove me wrong!

No. First of all, I have said nothing at all about “everything being OK.” I do in fact believe that people who do not explicitly become Christians in this life may be accepted by God. But that does not logically follow from what I’m saying.

Probably, to keep the two issues separate, I should say “speak of the true God” instead of “worship the true God.” If by “worship” we mean “offer worship that actually gets through to the true God,” then that’s a separate issue. For that matter, there are Christians who do not “worship the true God” in that sense. I’m speaking in a strictly linguistic manner–the referent to which Muslims point when they say “Allah” should be understood by Christians to be the true God as imperfectly apprehended by Muslims. This is, as I have pointed out, the linguistic usage of Christians traditionally, including in the very passage from John of Damascus to which Mickey appealed to prove the opposite.

First of all, as I said above, speaking of/worshiping the true God does not imply that a person is in a state of salvation. In the second place, don’t you think God wants us to know Him as perfectly as possible? Your argument makes no sense to me.

No disagreement (well, on practical terms I would say that you don’t just go around automatically correcting everyone, but certainly in principle, when appropriate, we should do so). Again, nothing I have said remotely applies anything else.

Yes, it is when the criteria you’re using to say Muslims worship a false god are equally relevant to Jews.

If Muslims worship a false god because they reject the Trinity, then Jews worship a false god too.

That does not mean that Muslims and Jews are equivalent in every way. But in this particular they differ from Christianity in exactly the same way.

That makes no sense. If God truly revealed Himself to the Jews, then people who believe what the Jews believe about God believe in the true God.

I’m confused by this. Heresies are in some sense part of Christianity; and a good case can be made that rabbinic Judaism is a “heresy” too (from the Jewish perspective, of course, it would be the other way round!). It’s hard to see how rabbinic Jews are more “part of Christianity” than Islam–quite the reverse if anything. After all, Jesus does have an important role in Islam, but not in Judaism.

Edwin

You keep building a strawman that alludes to an idea that Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity so they must be the same. When it’s been said that Muslims believe and act in accordance with doctrine that was not revealed by God. It’s apples and oranges.

 

[JeanMichel]

That applies to all monotheists, yes. Anyone who believes in one supreme divinity who is the source of all good is speaking of the true God, however imperfectly.

Early Christians never claimed that pagans thought they were worshiping the true God but weren’t. They consistently blamed pagans for worshiping lesser beings (beings the pagans recognized as lesser) instead of the true God. You find that in Romans, you find that in Justin Martyr, you find that in St. Augustine–I don’t know of any exceptions, though of course someone may prove me wrong!

No. First of all, I have said nothing at all about “everything being OK.” I do in fact believe that people who do not explicitly become Christians in this life may be accepted by God. But that does not logically follow from what I’m saying.

Probably, to keep the two issues separate, I should say “speak of the true God” instead of “worship the true God.” If by “worship” we mean “offer worship that actually gets through to the true God,” then that’s a separate issue. For that matter, there are Christians who do not “worship the true God” in that sense. I’m speaking in a strictly linguistic manner–the referent to which Muslims point when they say “Allah” should be understood by Christians to be the true God as imperfectly apprehended by Muslims. This is, as I have pointed out, the linguistic usage of Christians traditionally, including in the very passage from John of Damascus to which Mickey appealed to prove the opposite.

First of all, as I said above, speaking of/worshiping the true God does not imply that a person is in a state of salvation. In the second place, don’t you think God wants us to know Him as perfectly as possible? Your argument makes no sense to me.

No disagreement (well, on practical terms I would say that you don’t just go around automatically correcting everyone, but certainly in principle, when appropriate, we should do so). Again, nothing I have said remotely applies anything else.

Yes, it is when the criteria you’re using to say Muslims worship a false god are equally relevant to Jews.

If Muslims worship a false god because they reject the Trinity, then Jews worship a false god too.

That does not mean that Muslims and Jews are equivalent in every way. But in this particular they differ from Christianity in exactly the same way.

That makes no sense. If God truly revealed Himself to the Jews, then people who believe what the Jews believe about God believe in the true God.

I’m confused by this. Heresies are in some sense part of Christianity; and a good case can be made that rabbinic Judaism is a “heresy” too (from the Jewish perspective, of course, it would be the other way round!). It’s hard to see how rabbinic Jews are more “part of Christianity” than Islam–quite the reverse if anything. After all, Jesus does have an important role in Islam, but not in Judaism.

Edwin

Edwin, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I find we agree on a great deal of things. He who is not against us is for us; I would gladly pray for world peace anywhere regardless of who was standing beside me. It would not matter in the least if he was also praying for the same thing. I one time prayed with some Mormons and it was great. I felt edified by the prayer and felt the Holy Spirit. Strange how God chooses to act without regard to our wishes and ideas about what is right?

I have thought many times how the Savior would be received in this day and age? I suspect that there would be a great number of Christians who would be screaming for his crucifiction again for daring to contradict what they “thought” was the truth. I think we will all be surprised when he returns again and embraces his children regardless of their church affiliation. He will look to their heart for those what were pure in their desire to serve the Holy One of Israel regardless of what their neighbors said or did. They turned the other cheek, they waited in patience and love while zealots pushed them aside. May I be found worthy to stand with the widow who threw in her two mites and always reject those who only sought the adoration of man.

 

[nhylan]

You keep building a strawman that alludes to an idea that Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity so they must be the same. When it’s been said that Muslims believe and act in accordance with doctrine that was not revealed by God. It’s apples and oranges.

Jew’s also believe and act in accordance with doctrine not revealed by God by choosing to ignore the coming of Christ. Islam is actively following non Christan doctrine while Judaism is passively ignoring it, its different but not different enough to derail Contarini’s argument. apples and oranges still have similarities.

 

[jam070406]

Jew’s also believe and act in accordance with doctrine not revealed by God by choosing to ignore the coming of Christ. Islam is actively following non Christan doctrine while Judaism is passively ignoring it, its different but not different enough to derail Contarini’s argument. apples and oranges still have similarities.

And that non-Christian doctrine that blasphemes our Lord and His followers was inspired by whom?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

“He who is not against us is for us” is obviously said by Our Lord within a Christian context. Those who were healing in Christ’s name was the contextual key. Jesus wasn’t saying “well the worshippers of Beelzebub aren’t actively against us so I guess they’re for us!” Islam denegrates the godliness of Christ and demodes him to a created being, a prophet. It also places him in a place of judgment against Christians. The Muslims also teach that Christ became fed up with the Christians and their desire to worship him, which we know is patently false. The religion of Islam is against us. I seem to remember the Crusades, attempts to spread caliphates to Europe and brave Catholics praying the rosary before battle to fend off their onslaughts, Charles Martel, etc. Islam to this day is opposed to democracy and especially to Christianity. Its view of God, salvation, the afterlife, original sin, Christ, and the Biblical narrative are warped and incongruent with Christ.

I would apply some of these concerns to Mormonism, which you referenced. Again, a distortion of God’s very person, making him “married,” having physical form, being an evolved creature, a religion of making spirit babies and owning one’s own solar system in the after life, sealing ceremonies, secret robes, and a rejection of the Holy Trinity as well as acceptance of false prophets, this is not the group with home any orthodox Christian should pray? We should work together for common good, but prayerwise we need to be apart.

When you say you think we will all be surprised, that can go both ways. Jesus says He is the Way and that no one comes to the Father save through Him. The Scriptures warn us of synchretism, muddying the waters, and Israel shows us a wonderful example of God’s sentiment toward His chosen people rubbing elbows with pagans and praying with them and falling into their lifestyle and sensibilities. Israel is a warning and the ultimate example for us, as St. Augustine tells us so wisely. You might be surprised yourself when Jesus comes and judges us all. We are all sinners who fall short of His glory and majesty. We are all hypocrites indeed. We all need our Saviour. But we’re called to holiness as our Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict have reminded us.

This prayer day with non-Christians is a political situation and I’m sad the pope got roped into it. I’m praying for him as this is a seriously sinful situation.

Edwin, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I find we agree on a great deal of things. He who is not against us is for us; I would gladly pray for world peace anywhere regardless of who was standing beside me. It would not matter in the least if he was also praying for the same thing. I one time prayed with some Mormons and it was great. I felt edified by the prayer and felt the Holy Spirit. Strange how God chooses to act without regard to our wishes and ideas about what is right?

I have thought many times how the Savior would be received in this day and age? I suspect that there would be a great number of Christians who would be screaming for his crucifiction again for daring to contradict what they “thought” was the truth. I think we will all be surprised when he returns again and embraces his children regardless of their church affiliation. He will look to their heart for those what were pure in their desire to serve the Holy One of Israel regardless of what their neighbors said or did. They turned the other cheek, they waited in patience and love while zealots pushed them aside. May I be found worthy to stand with the widow who threw in her two mites and always reject those who only sought the adoration of man.

 

[ddarko]

If Muslims worship a false god because they reject the Trinity, then Jews worship a false god too.

Ok I think I see where you are coming from now. I think this is where our disagreement lies.

No, the fact that Muslims are worshiping a false God is NOT solely based on the rejection of the trinity. We have to go back to the foundations. We believe that Judaism is TRUE. But it is incomplete. It was brought to completion by Jesus Christ himself. So in this sense, Judaism is from the TRUE God.

BUT, Islam is a salad bar of Christian and Judaism teachings mixed with some of their own. It is from some guy who decided to grab power in the area by twisting religion. So it DOES contain FALSE teachings. FALSE ideas of even Jewish history.

So you see the difference? Judaism MUST be true for Christianity to be true and infact, Judaism is TRUE. It is merely incomplete.

Islam is just FALSE because it simply contradicts TRUE things revealed by Judaism + Christianity.

That does not mean that Muslims and Jews are equivalent in every way. But in this particular they differ from Christianity in exactly the same way.

That makes no sense. If God truly revealed Himself to the Jews, then people who believe what the Jews believe about God believe in the true God.

I think I addressed this above. You are incorrect I think.

The difference is that Judaism is ***incomplete ***BUT True. Islam is FALSE simply because it contains False teachings that contradict what we know as true from Judaism + Christianity.

So the KEY THING is that, as Christians, we approach the world knowing that Judaism and Christianity are from the TRUE God. To be more accurate, our hierarchy of truths go from teachings of Christ on God to truths revealed about God from Judaism. We can overrule Jewish teachings in light of Christ’s teachings only because they fully explain the meaning behind them. In other words, we do not discard Jewish teachings. It is still TRUE. We just have a better understanding of it through Christ.

So yes, if someone is indeed Jewish, they do believe in the true God. There is no problem with that.

But this means that our plumb line to judge false God or Gods is from Judaism + Christianity. Any religion that contradicts the combination of knowledge from Judaism and Christianity are thus representing FALSE God’s. Therefore since Islamic teachings of God contradict tons of these truths, it represents a FALSE God. The fact that it is monotheistic is just an element of truth and such elements of truth may be found in every religion on earth. Therefore we do not judge the Truth/Falsity of the God based on the elements of truth. We have to judge it based on whether it contradicts the revealed truth or not. Because for us to affirm any religion that contradicts revealed truths from God is to promote a false view of God which is a SIN. Note, this does not apply to Judaism because the God of Judaism is indeed a compatible view with Christianity. It is merely incomplete. NOT erroneous.

God Bless

 

[Contarini]

You keep building a strawman that alludes to an idea that Jews and Muslims reject the Trinity so they must be the same.

No straw man. People have claimed over and over again on this forum that Muslims don’t worship the true God because they don’t worship the Trinity. I have been accused of downplaying the centrality of the Trinity because I say otherwise.

When it’s been said that Muslims believe and act in accordance with doctrine that was not revealed by God. It’s apples and oranges.

No, it’s two different arguments, which have been typically used together in discussions on this forum. People have bounced back and forth from one to the other.

The argument you are making certainly doesn’t apply to pre-Christian Jews (the Trinity argument may or may not). However, it arguably applies to post-Christian Jews, and also to any Christians who believe false doctrines of any kind.

I believe that Calvinists act in accordance with doctrine that was not revealed by God. So I think you need to clarify just what you mean by this.

And you still have to deal with the overwhelming consensus of the Fathers on this issue, who consistently recognized pagan philosophers as speaking of the true God when they posited a supreme Divine Reality.

Edwin

 

[jam070406]

No straw man. People have claimed over and over again on this forum that Muslims don’t worship the true God because they don’t worship the Trinity. I have been accused of downplaying the centrality of the Trinity because I say otherwise.

Refer to ddarko’s excellent post. Better stated then I can.

No, it’s two different arguments, which have been typically used together in discussions on this forum. People have bounced back and forth from one to the other.

Because you have attempted to use the example of Jews to show that Muslims worship the same God as Christians.
And others have explained (much better then I) that it doesn’t work.

The argument you are making certainly doesn’t apply to pre-Christian Jews (the Trinity argument may or may not). However, it arguably applies to post-Christian Jews, and also to any Christians who believe false doctrines of any kind.

We were talking about Islam but you keep dragging Jews into it.

I believe that Calvinists act in accordance with doctrine that was not revealed by God. So I think you need to clarify just what you mean by this.

Good, then you also believe heresy is of the evil one and wounds the body of Christ.

And you still have to deal with the overwhelming consensus of the Fathers on this issue, who consistently recognized pagan philosophers as speaking of the true God when they posited a supreme Divine Reality.

No, I don’t. Totally different, unrelated scenario. Pre-incarnation philosophers musings about God are not the same as false prophets that prevert the gospels into an anti-christ religion that leaves people in bondage and drags souls to hell.

The Fathers had much to say about heresy also, no?

 

[jam070406]

I picked up my New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism and it states as follows:

Lesson 16

1. How do we worship God?
   We worship God by acts of faith, hope and charity, and by adoring Him and praying to Him.
2. How does a Catholic sin against faith?
   A Catholic sins against faith by not believing what God revealed, and by partaking in non-Catholic worship.

 

[Contarini]

No, the fact that Muslims are worshiping a false God is NOT solely based on the rejection of the trinity.

Yet this is what has been claimed on this forum, over and over and over, and any disagreement is treated as heresy because I’m supposedly saying that the Trinity isn’t central to Christianity.

A lot of people seem to perceive the Trinitarian argument as key. And I agree, for reasons I’ll elaborate below. Once you grant that Jews believe in the true God even though they don’t believe in the Trinity, no sound reasons remain to deny that Muslims believe in the true God as well.

We have to go back to the foundations. We believe that Judaism is TRUE. But it is incomplete. It was brought to completion by Jesus Christ himself. So in this sense, Judaism is from the TRUE God.

Right. Although of course we need to distinguish between pre-Christian Judaism and rabbinic Judaism, which is Biblical Judaism as interpreted by the rabbis, many of whom explicitly rejected Christianity in more or less the same ways as Muhammad, and more radically insofar as they did not even recognize Jesus as a prophet.

I don’t think that Christianity completes the Judaism of, say, Maimonides. Did Maimonides worship the true God? Did Abraham Joshua Heschel worship the true God? Does my friend the conservative rabbi worship the true God? When Jews sing the “Adon Olam,” are they talking about our God? This is a text written about a millennium after Jesus, by someone who explicitly rejected Christianity. Is such a text really representative of a religion that was “brought to completion by Jesus Christ,” given the extent to which it has gone on developing?

BUT, Islam is a salad bar of Christian and Judaism teachings mixed with some of their own.

True enough. That’s precisely why we should accept that they are speaking of the true God when they speak of Allah.

It is from some guy who decided to grab power in the area by twisting religion.

I don’t think the evidence supports a purely reductionistic view of Muhammad’s motives, and I don’t think that the issue is really relevant. It’s too easy to claim that anyone whose actions you don’t like was just out for power.

So it DOES contain FALSE teachings.

Absolutely. So does post-Christian Judaism. So do many forms of Christianity (from my perspective maybe all, but I hope not).

So you see the difference? Judaism MUST be true for Christianity to be true and infact, Judaism is TRUE. It is merely incomplete.

That’s true of pre-Christian Judaism. Not of post-Christian.

 

[Contarini]

So yes, if someone is indeed Jewish, they do believe in the true God. There is no problem with that.

Even though they reject Christianity explicitly, on pretty much the same grounds as Muslims?

But this means that our plumb line to judge false God or Gods is from Judaism + Christianity. Any religion that contradicts the combination of knowledge from Judaism and Christianity are thus representing FALSE God’s. Therefore since Islamic teachings of God contradict tons of these truths

OK. Thanks for putting the claim clearly. Now name a few of these teachings. The ones I can think of (to help you out) are:

Muslims exalt Ishmael over Isaac;
Muslims have garbled versions of a bunch of OT stories, some of which may come from non-Biblical Jewish or Christian sources;
Muslims have a version of the fall of Satan in which Satan refuses to bow down to Adam, which again may come from a Jewish or Christian source but certainly isn’t in the Bible.

I’m not saying these are all, but these are the kinds of differences I can think of. Please add the ones you can think of. It would help if you could find me Jewish writers who agree that Muslims worship a different god than they do.

I can’t see how these differences support the argument that Muslims worship a different god than Jews. Nor do either Muslims or Jews, as far as I can see, believe this. The differences between Islam and Judaism are, as far as I can see, completely trivial compared with the differences between both religions and Christianity.

So if you grant that Jews believe in the true God in spite of not believing in the Trinity, I don’t see how you can reasonably maintain that Muslims believe in a false god because of these relatively trivial differences between themselves and Judaism. It would appear to follow that, just as Muslims and Jews believe and just as St. John of Damascus and other early anti-Muslim writers appear to have believed (before Eastern Christians started misinterpreting the Qur’an as saying that God is made of metal), Muslims worship the God of Judaism and Christianity, although they add some muddled ideas and some pagan practices to the mix.

The fact that it is monotheistic is just an element of truth

I think that trivializes monotheism; but furthermore, it’s the particular element of truth that is relevant to this question. Buddhists have other elements of truth–frankly, I much prefer Buddhism to Islam–but they don’t worship our God, nor do they claim to. (Admittedly, Buddhists have trouble understanding what we mean by God, persistently identifying our God with Maha-Brahma, when arguably the Mahayana Buddhist “Buddha nature” has more similarities with our concept of God.)

and such elements of truth may be found in every religion on earth. Therefore we do not judge the Truth/Falsity of the God based on the elements of truth

We should judge based on the relevant elements of truth. The elements of truth found in Buddhism, for instance, are not relevant to this question, even though I see a lot more spiritual value in Buddhism than in non-Sufi Islam.

We have to judge it based on whether it contradicts the revealed truth or not. Because for us to affirm any religion that contradicts revealed truths from God is to promote a false view of God which is a SIN. Note, this does not apply to Judaism

Yes, it does.

because the God of Judaism is indeed a compatible view with Christianity

To restate my case:

The Jewish and Islamic concepts of God have much more in common with each other than either one has with Christianity (if you say otherwise, then you are trivializing the Trinity!). Muslims and Jews contradict the Christian conception of God in the same ways, and the differences between Judaism and Islam do not for the most part concern the doctrine of God. Therefore, if (as you grant) Jews worship the true God, then Muslims do as well. (That’s before we even get into the patristic witness about pagan philosophy.)

God bless,

Edwin

 

[dzheremi]

Much, much older than that Jam, we find in the canons of the council of Laodicea in 363-364 AD the following, under the serious warning that those who disobeyed would be subject to excommunication:

Canon IX. The members of the Church are not allowed to meet in the cemeteries, nor attend the so-called martyries of any of the heretics, for prayer or service; but such as so do, if they be communicants, shall be excommunicated for a time; but if they repent and confess that they have sinned they shall be received.

Canon XXIX, Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

Canon XXXIII. No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.

Canon XXXIV. No Christian shall forsake the martyrs of Christ, and turn to false martyrs, that is, to those of the heretics, or those who formerly were heretics; for they are aliens from God. Let those, therefore, who go after them, be anathema.

Canon XXXVI. They who are of the priesthood, or of the clergy, shall not be magicians, enchanters, mathematicians, or astrologers; nor shall they make what are called amulets, which are chains for their own souls. And those who wear such, we command to be cast out of the Church.

It could be argued, I suppose, that this refers only to Christian heretics and not to Muslims or other non-Christians. Two preemptive objections:

1. Those who put forth the idea that Islam worships the same God as Christianity substantiate this view with reference to early Christian writings which are written in the context of addressing Islam as a type of Christian heresy (which was the popular view among Christian apologists for hundreds of years).
2. Even if (1) does not hold, how much more can be inferred regarding praying with those from completely different religions, if those in the “same” religion (ostensibly) are rebuked so harshly? Logically, to say that one would situation would require excommunication while the other would be just fine seems like incredibly unlikely wishful thinking.

 

[jam070406]

Even though they reject Christianity explicitly, on pretty much the same grounds as Muslims?

OK. Thanks for putting the claim clearly. Now name a few of these teachings. The ones I can think of (to help you out) are:

Muslims exalt Ishmael over Isaac;
Muslims have garbled versions of a bunch of OT stories, some of which may come from non-Biblical Jewish or Christian sources;
Muslims have a version of the fall of Satan in which Satan refuses to bow down to Adam, which again may come from a Jewish or Christian source but certainly isn’t in the Bible.

I’m not saying these are all, but these are the kinds of differences I can think of. Please add the ones you can think of. It would help if you could find me Jewish writers who agree that Muslims worship a different god than they do.

I can’t see how these differences support the argument that Muslims worship a different god than Jews. Nor do either Muslims or Jews, as far as I can see, believe this. The differences between Islam and Judaism are, as far as I can see, completely trivial compared with the differences between both religions and Christianity.

So if you grant that Jews believe in the true God in spite of not believing in the Trinity, I don’t see how you can reasonably maintain that Muslims believe in a false god because of these relatively trivial differences between themselves and Judaism. It would appear to follow that, just as Muslims and Jews believe and just as St. John of Damascus and other early anti-Muslim writers appear to have believed (before Eastern Christians started misinterpreting the Qur’an as saying that God is made of metal), Muslims worship the God of Judaism and Christianity, although they add some muddled ideas and some pagan practices to the mix.

I think that trivializes monotheism; but furthermore, it’s the particular element of truth that is relevant to this question. Buddhists have other elements of truth–frankly, I much prefer Buddhism to Islam–but they don’t worship our God, nor do they claim to. (Admittedly, Buddhists have trouble understanding what we mean by God, persistently identifying our God with Maha-Brahma, when arguably the Mahayana Buddhist “Buddha nature” has more similarities with our concept of God.)

We should judge based on the relevant elements of truth. The elements of truth found in Buddhism, for instance, are not relevant to this question, even though I see a lot more spiritual value in Buddhism than in non-Sufi Islam.

Yes, it does.

To restate my case:

The Jewish and Islamic concepts of God have much more in common with each other than either one has with Christianity (if you say otherwise, then you are trivializing the Trinity!). Muslims and Jews contradict the Christian conception of God in the same ways, and the differences between Judaism and Islam do not for the most part concern the doctrine of God. Therefore, if (as you grant) Jews worship the true God, then Muslims do as well. (That’s before we even get into the patristic witness about pagan philosophy.)

God bless,

Edwin

So, in conclusion…it is more warm and fuzzy, tolerant and politically correct to say that Muslims and Jews worship the same God as Christians as to say they both don’t worship the same God and rock the boat? God may be offended but the world will love you.