Pope's comment ordination of gay people

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CilladeRoma said:
Again, something I keep hearing, but, I have never seen any actual evidence for the claims being made here.
Where are these seminaries, and who are the Bishops who are supporting them?
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Each time they get reported, Catholic groups keep claiming the sources as being wrong because they don’t like them (like Church Militant or the Lepanto Institute). The Bishops who have seemed to side against the faithful in these regards are Cardinals Dolan, Kasper, Marx, Cupich – many priests being vocal yet vague about their support like Fr. Thomas Rosica and Fr. James Martin – and past ones who have been blatantly in this support like Cardinal Bernardine of Chicago and Fr. Baum who wrote about his openly gay lifestyle while active as a priest (who Fr. Rosica fawned over in an interview before his death).

I know many seminarians, and while they are hesitant to speak much about it, they have all acknowledged that it is a known presents. This is at least in the archdioceses of Washington and Baltimore.
 
Again, mere speculation with no real “facts”. I have discussed the issue with many priests, some newly ordained, and some who have been priests for 50 years. None of them had any experience that they would consider “common”.
And to say that a number of Cardinal, Bishops and priests are not faithful to the Church and her teachings is beyond the pale.😡
 
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CilladeRoma said:
And to say that a number of Cardinal, Bishops and priests are not faithful to the Church and her teachings is beyond the pale.😡
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WHy is that beyond the pale? Why is it a shocker or wrong to say that some priests are not dedicated to their vocations? Judas one chosen directly by Christ and went against his vocation and was only one of 12. Our most recent popes have said very blatantly that there is evil in the Church. Pope Francis said there is a gay lobby in the Church. Pope Benedict XVI called it the gay Mafia. This isn’t a secret.

Keep in mind, I said some priests aren’t – this isn’t to say that I now believe all priests are as there are clearly many, many faithful clerics as we all know. Nor did I say the Church herself is evil – I’d never say such a thing. I said that the most recent popes said, “there is evil in the Church” meaning that evil has infiltrated through evil people.
 
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All of the men that you named are obviously held in high esteem by the Church, as they have been given the ranks that they have.
To say that they are the “evil” that has infiltrated the Church is downright scandalous.

And again, who is saying this- “Church Militant”, Lepento…
all people with axes to grind and no real authority.

For shame.
 
CilladeRoma said:
Again, something I keep hearing, but, I have never seen any actual evidence for the claims being made here.
Where are these seminaries, and who are the Bishops who are supporting them?
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I’m not going to name seminaries because a lot of them today (esp in the US) have been cleaned up.

But I will refer to this article that blasts the idea that one American Seminary in Beligum has a coverup. The important part I want you to read is the very last section called “The Real Debate”

www.crisismagazine.com

Responding to Michael Rose

No writer wants to read criticism of his work—whether well-founded or not. After laboring on a project for months or years, he begins to identify himself with his work. An attack on one is an attack…
www.crisismagazine.com www.crisismagazine.com
 
CilladeRoma said:
All of the men that you named are obviously held in high esteem by the Church, as they have been given the ranks that they have.
To say that they are the “evil” that has infiltrated the Church is downright scandalous.

And again, who is saying this- “Church Militant”, Lepento…
all people with axes to grind and no real authority.

For shame.
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I’m not claiming them specifically as the direct evil, or at least not at the levels that Popes Francis and Benedict were referring to, however they have caused scandals themselves – maybe not to the same degree as others, but these are at least confusions which is scandalous.

Saying that these sources are bad because you don’t like them is a logical fallacy.

But lets put aside all of these clerics I named and all of the sources we mentioned and just focus on what Popes Francis and Benedict said about evil in the Church…were they causing scandal by saying these things?
 
This article is 15 years old and about a seminary that is now closed.

Next!
 
No, I do believe that there is an evil that has infiltrated the faithful.
I don’t think it has anything at all to do with priests or would-be priests who are gay.
I think the evil that has infiltrated the Church is the evil of individualism- "if it’s not exaclty what “I " think it should be, then it’s wrong. To h** with what the Chruch actually teaches”.
 
“CilladeRoma said:
CilladeRoma said:
No, I do believe that there is an evil that has infiltrated the faithful…

I think the evil that has infiltrated the Church is the evil of individualism- "if it’s not exaclty what “I " think it should be, then it’s wrong. To h** with what the Chruch actually teaches”.
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It sounds like we both agree that there is evil in the Church, and I further agree that it is an evil with pride in the center.
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Yes, but I am not throwing a bunch of clergy under the bus based on reports from Church Militant and Lepento.
 
CilladeRoma said:
Yes, but I am not throwing a bunch of clergy under the bus based on reports from Church Militant and Lepento.
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OK, so let’s put that aside for now.

We can at least establish what the popes have said about the evil in the Church including the gay Lobby/Mafia. Why was this spoken about negatively by them do you think?
 
Perhaps there could be a special blessing service for them, though? Just sayin’…
 
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CilladeRoma said:
This article is 15 years old and about a seminary that is now closed.

Next!
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No, the article was about the book “Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church” by Michael Rose.

Again, I said I would not name seminaries because most the US have been cleaned up. But there are still issues in Europe


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/02/gay-sex-allegations-ireland-priest-st-patricks-college


www.irishtimes.com

An all-male community: Attractions of priesthood are obvious

Even if Irish College in Rome is serious study centre, Eternal City can provide myriad distractions
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com

Look, I’m not trying to bash gay people. I know many, including my wife’s cousin - however, all the ones I know date or are “married” to members of their sex. I do not personally know any chaste homosexuals.

However, my point is this: the Church has valid reason to limit those who suffer from “deep seated attraction” to the same sex. Just like they would have valid reason to limit those who have a deep attachment to sin.

God Bless
 
I know a fair number of LGBT people, though there are only two of us upholding Church teaching on chastity. Most of them are single, one is a devout mainline Protestant. Two are getting married to each other. If we’re going to reach actual gay humans, we’ve got to drop the “gay lifestyle” canard because it’s just not reality in 2018.
 
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jtavington said:
If we’re going to reach actual gay humans, we’ve got to drop the “gay lifestyle” canard because it’s just not reality in 2018.
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Indeed. Language like that serves only to drive people away from the Church. Not only gays and lesbians, but anyone else who has friends or family members that are LGBT.

I know quite a few people who have drifted from the Church over the years, and the Church’s treatment of LGBT people factored into a lot of their decisions. One of them told me, “Who wants to be around a bunch of homophobes?” I know where he is coming from. On this forum alone, there is no shortage of posts that are dripping with hatred of LGBT people, justified under the name of religion. I wouldn’t want to be around any of the posters like that, either.
 
AndrewAxland said:
On this forum alone, there is no shortage of posts that are dripping with hatred of LGBT people, justified under the name of religion. I wouldn’t want to be around any of the posters like that, either.
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Not only that, but the idea that if you are homosexual, even if you lead a chaste life, that you are somehow “less than” someone who is heterosexual.
It amazes me how so many people, who have probably never had to deal with homosexual feelings or friends and family, seem to be experts on their behaviors, attitudes, spirituality and agendas. :roll_eyes:
 
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CilladeRoma said:
It amazes me how so many people, who have probably never had to deal with homosexual feelings or friends and family, seem to be experts on their behaviors, attitudes and agendas.
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… and their spirituality.
 
CilladeRoma said:
Not only that, but the idea that if you are homosexual, even if you lead a chaste life, that you are somehow “less than” someone who is heterosexual.
It amazes me how so many people, who have probably never had to deal with homosexual feelings or friends and family, seem to be experts on their behaviors, attitudes and agendas. :roll_eyes:
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Excuse me, but no one from what I’ve seen has ever suggested that those who struggle with that are “less than.” You don’t know our experiences, our lives, or anything about us. What a ridiculous and arrogant accusation.

When the dialog on the forefront has happened to be the subject of homosexuality, then wer’e pushed into the position of having to talk earnestly about it. I would not suggest that they are “less than.” Clearly if someone struggles with lust but is straight while a person lives a chaste life but still struggles with same-sex attraction, the person with same-sex attraction is likely in God’s favor.

But that isn’t the discussion. It’s a question of should that person enter the seminary while it remains their struggle? Clearly the lustful person who is straight doesn’t belong their either, but what about the subject at hand?
 
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It’s a very fine line to walk because many LGBT people would call actual Church teaching homophobic. Fortunately, I was already Catholic when I realized I was bi, so I made the conscious choice to live up to my oath. I would have zero issue with a similar man being ordained.
 
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