Pope's upside-down cross on his chair

[mercygate]

I understand, yes Peter was crucified upside down because he was not worthy… (NotWorthy )

But

Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter…

Why not JESUS!

Instead of supposedly honouring Jesus by honouring Peter’s humblesness and martrydom (sp?)…

Just go straight to JESUS AND worship, remember, honor, him.

Catholics worship Jesus, malachi. You seem to be the only one on this thread who is obsessed with Peter.

 

[Rawb]

I understand, yes Peter was crucified upside down because he was not worthy… (NotWorthy )

But

Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter…

Why not JESUS!

Instead of supposedly honouring Jesus by honouring Peter’s humblesness and martrydom (sp?)…

Just go straight to JESUS AND worship, remember, honor, him.

I think my previous post might have gotten lost in the fray, so I’m gonna requote it here:

The upside down cross is on the back of The Chair of St. Peter, and in depictions of St. Peter being crucified (which you only see on St. Peter’s Holy Cards or in stained glass windows featuring St. Peter’s crucifiction.)

The Crucifix with Christ upon it is found:
In the Pope’s Hands
Around his Neck
Above every altar in every Catholic church (or it should be anyway)
Around the necks of our priests and bishops,
We, the Laity, wear it around our neck
It’s above our beds and home shrines
In depictions of the Stations of the Cross
At the end of our Rosaries
On the cover of our Bibles
In paintings in our house

So how are we ‘usurping’ Christ’s redemptive sacrifice by showing St. Peter’s cross in a few places (specifically on the back of the Chair of St. Peter - the chair dedicated to him) when we have Crucifixes EVERYWHERE else?

 

[thechrismyster]

isn’t it symbolic of the Pope’s position, the current Pontiff on the seat that Peter once occupied as head of the Catholic Church?

 

[Socio_Momma]

I understand, yes Peter was crucified upside down because he was not worthy… (NotWorthy )

But

Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter…

Why not JESUS!

Instead of supposedly honouring Jesus by honouring Peter’s humblesness and martrydom (sp?)…

Just go straight to JESUS AND worship, remember, honor, him.

We don’t worship St. Peter. We worship Jesus, He is the reason for all we are and will ever be.

Remembering what it means to take up a the cross & follow Christ in how St. Peter died takes nothing away from the Lord Jesus Christ. It also is a reminder that while the Pope is the representative of Christ he is not equal to Christ as St. Peter himself recognized in the way he choose to die for the Lord.

 

[brianwalden]

I understand, yes Peter was crucified upside down because he was not worthy… (NotWorthy )

But

Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter…

Why not JESUS!

Instead of supposedly honouring Jesus by honouring Peter’s humblesness and martrydom (sp?)…

Just go straight to JESUS AND worship, remember, honor, him.

Why don’t you spend every single second of every day on your knees praying to Jesus? Why are you on this forum when you could be worshiping, remembering, and honoring Jesus?

And if you still think I’m wrong, what other things should we get rid of that don’t honor Jesus? Family picture albums? Trophy cases? Report cards on the fridge?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

If you look at those bent-arm crosses – popular in mediaeval northern Europe – you will see that they look like tree branches rather than hewn beams. This harks back to the tree of Eden since the tree of the cross puts right what was made wrong in the Garden.

It could be a parallelism with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Parallelism is a powerful Biblical tool.

However it is more likely the Tree of Jesse.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Incorporated into the shape of the initial *F *is the Tree of Jesse. This diagrammatic representation shows Jesus’ supposed descent from King David’s father Jesse through the Virgin Mary. The genealogy derives from a passage in Isaiah that describes a flower that will sprout from the “root of Jesse.” The passage is inscribed on the vertical scroll held by the bearded man at the top right.

The initial opens the prayers for the Feast of the Assumption of the Virgin. It appears across the double-page spread from the miniature of the Assumption of the Virgin.

http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifThe Tree of Jesse, Unknown German, 1170’s. Getty Museum.

http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifTree of Jesse Window, Chartres Cathedral, c 1200. (Detail)

http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifThe Tree of Jesse, Unknown German, 1240’s. Getty Museum.

http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifTree of Jesse, Unknown French, 1250’s. Getty Museum.

continued…

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Why don’t you spend every single second of every day on your knees praying to Jesus? Why are you on this forum when you could be worshiping, remembering, and honoring Jesus?

On that note…over and out.

 

[bear06]

I’m sure it signifies that it’s Peter’s Chair. Our Pope rules from the Chair of Peter. Was Christ making Peter more important than Himself when he made him the Rock? We are following the teaching of Christ.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifJesse Tree Article and Images, “From Cyprus to Munich,” 15th century fresco, Antiphonitis, Cyprus.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifThe Tree of Jesse, Jan Mostaert, 1485. Rijksmuseum.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifThe Tree of Jesse, Gerard Horenbout, 1510-20. The Getty Museum.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifA Jesse Tree, Girolamo Genga, c 1535. National Gallery, London.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifThe Tree of Jesse, 1660-1670, Russian Icon. Christus Rex.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifVine/Apostles and Jesse, Silver-gilt cover of Gospel Book, 1676. Benaki Museum, Athens.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifMemorial Stained Glass Window, Tree of Jesse, 1990, St. Luke Lutheran Church, Gales Ferry, CT.

 

[chacha]

Catholics worship Jesus, malachi. You seem to be the only one on this thread who is obsessed with Peter.

AMEN!!!

 

[scylla]

The reason Catholic honor for others looks so wierd to you is that you have a different form of worship than Catholics. Our worship is centered on the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross offered up to God.

This allows us to love others without having any possibility of worshipping others than God. Only Catholics have this freedom and it is impossible for a Catholic to worship other than God.

To be truly consistant as a non-catholic, the non-catholic cannot sing, show love, ask petitions, nor honor others without bordering on worship if the worship of the non-catholic is defined as singing, showing love, asking petitions, or honoring others.

So you are right to object to our love\honor of others if you base your objection based upon a non-catholic viewpoint. This is why Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually consistant in their rejection of Birthdays and stuff like that.

The difference is Catholics worship and honor differently than non-catholics so you cannot judge a Catholic by just outward appearances but by belief and intent.
(an example)
Just because the Nazis put tatoos on Jews, this wasn’t a gesture of charity. Even though plenty of people these days even pay money to get similar tattoos.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Aramis]

Peter’s ascribed armory is Gules, a Cross Roman inverted Or.

Being Peter’s Throne, it’s appropriate it bears his ensign, the cross inverted. Not that Peter used armorial bearings, but it is an indication of the Throne belonging to St. Peter, and the Pope using it as his Heir.

 

[quiet52]

We give glory to God through song, prayer, gestures, and art. We give glory to Him through our good acts, and by acknowledging and thanking Him for the goodness of others. None of the good any of us do is possible without God. The
artist(s) who made the pope’s chair were giving glory to God by acknowledging Peter’s martyrdom and of course his role as the spiritual leader of Christ’s Church. The current pope gives glory to God (in many ways I’m sure) but the artwork on his chair is a reminder of his discipleship and his leadership entrusted to him, for which he undoubtedly gives thanks to God.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Now I did a search for previous threads and read them in this regard.

My question is… why honor “Peter”?

Isn’t Jesus the whole reason? Why deviate? I understand “Peter” was (argueably) the first “Pope”. But isn’t Christ’s upright cross more significant, more important than Peter’s upsidedown cross?

ewtn.com/holyland2000/gallery/gallery6.asp#

Assuming that this has any significance at all might we not assume that since Peter was (tradition) crucified upside down as he was not worthy to be crucified in the same way as his Lord that the Pope (successor to Peter) had a chair with the same type of cross. IE an act of humilty.

Rev North

 

[JaneFrances]

Originally Posted by brianwalden
Why don’t you spend every single second of every day on your knees praying to Jesus? Why are you on this forum when you could be worshiping, remembering, and honoring Jesus?

I can not qualify brianwalden’s post, of course, but it does bring up an important point in this discussion.

malachi_a_serva made the comment:

Originally Posted by malachi_a_serva
I understand, yes Peter was crucified upside down because he was not worthy… (NotWorthy )

But

Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter…

Why not JESUS!

Yes, Jesus! The cross of Peter, indicating Petrine authority and succession, is a very clear and striking cursor towards Jesus. It points to Jesus, as it reminds us of His power and authority with which He ordains His servants. It points to Jesus, as it is a cross. And it qualifies Jesus’ Cross as being superior and unique. The cross of Peter does not detract from Christ or His Cross, but rather it requires one to stop and consider why it is that St. Peter would have chosen this sort of humiliation for himself. The cross of Peter is, in every way, inferior to Christ’s. This inferiority points directly to Christ’s superiority ever time you look upon its very form.

To ignore this the cross of Peter is to ignore a perfect opportunity to appreciate the power of grace in a fellow Christian. Peter’s martyrdom points to Christ as do the sacrifices of all Christians.

Instead of supposedly honouring Jesus by honouring Peter’s humblesness and martrydom (sp?)…

Just go straight to JESUS AND worship, remember, honor, him.

This is an odd statement.

Throughout Judeo-Christian tradition, the people of God have looked upon His creatures to see glimpses of Him. The saints and martyrs are not the least of these.

You do not close your eyes to a sunset’s brilliance that you might “go straight to Jesus and worship, remember and honor him.” Instead, you look at this amazing work of creation and see the hand of God.

You do not shut your ears from hearing a choir’s harmonious song of praise that you could, in silence, “go straight to Jesus.” Instead, there are times where the swell of a familiar refrain moves your heart to deeper awe of Him.

You do not cast away the poor and weak of this world so that you can serve Him in the comfort of your solitude. Instead, you stretch out your arms and serve Him with your hands in works of charity towards others.

Thus, we do not ignore the cross of Peter instead of going “straight to Jesus.” Peter’s cross points us directly to Him. We look upon this humble and beautiful image of love and sacrifice and see the Lord who moved this fisherman to die as a criminal for Him.

If you see the cross of Peter and do not see Christ, you are not looking hard enough.

 

[Unitas]

First Malachi must prove his iconoclasm is scripturally sound before he can accuse us of these images taking away from Christ.

Until he does that, anything he says is hot air because it’s based on an unproven premise. And him making the accusation, the burden of proof is on him, not us.

It’s up to him to prove how the cross on the pope’s chair takes away from Christ, not us to prove how it doesn’t.

 

[mercygate]

http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifJesse Tree Article and Images, “From Cyprus to Munich,” 15th century fresco, Antiphonitis, Cyprus.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifThe Tree of Jesse, Jan Mostaert, 1485. Rijksmuseum.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifThe Tree of Jesse, Gerard Horenbout, 1510-20. The Getty Museum.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifA Jesse Tree, Girolamo Genga, c 1535. National Gallery, London.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifThe Tree of Jesse, 1660-1670, Russian Icon. Christus Rex.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifVine/Apostles and Jesse, Silver-gilt cover of Gospel Book, 1676. Benaki Museum, Athens.http://www.textweek.com/art/_themes/blueprinttw/blubul1d.gifMemorial Stained Glass Window, Tree of Jesse, 1990, St. Luke Lutheran Church, Gales Ferry, CT.

Does the subject matter on these links change? I found only one Jesse Tree – which I cannot connect with the ‘tree crosses’. An old English legend has it that the cross was made of the wood from the tree of the forbidden fruit.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Does the subject matter on these links change? I found only one Jesse Tree – which I cannot connect with the ‘tree crosses’. An old English legend has it that the cross was made of the wood from the tree of the forbidden fruit.

Oh gosh, I don’t know. But did you at least get the one on the stained glass at Chartres?

There could very well be many parallel images for the tree. I would not be surprised if they all converged at the Cross.

The Tree of Jesse is great for teaching children the line of David through Scripture. Each week they hang a new prophet on the branches until they get to Jesus. There are course outlines for this on the internet in case folks are interested.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I understand, yes Peter was crucified upside down because he was not worthy… (NotWorthy )

But

Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter…

Why not JESUS!

Instead of supposedly honouring Jesus by honouring Peter’s humblesness and martrydom (sp?)…

Just go straight to JESUS AND worship, remember, honor, him.

But honoring Peter doesn’t exclude going to Jesus and worshiping him. (Before you criticize the Pepe for going to Peter, ask who goes to Jesus directly more often: him or you?). Many protestants live in some kind of delusion that we can’t give honour to others (well, they speak out the saints only, but that makes it only more inconsistent) because we could spend that time worshiping Jesus directly. But this is such a twisted view on the world. Besides the fact that the Bible specifically tells us to honour those that deserve it, we are also to love others and have relationship with them. It’s not God’s will for most of us to lock ourselves alone in a dark room and pray the whole day. We have parents, we have families and we have our friends, whom we should not neglect, whom we should respect and whom we should honour if they deserve it (especially our parents). By doing this we are not only doing God’s will but also get closer to him. When we do all this we still should pray and honour Jesus directly, but God gave us life and thus other means towards him.

When we honour saints we honour the people who lived for Jesus. We honour them for something most of us haven’t achieved. We meditate on their lives and try to imitate them. They thus help us (and in addition through their prayers) to get get closer to Jesus and strengthen our relationship with Him.

As for the upside-down cross on the throne. It is a symbol of the Chair of Peter, representing the authority of Papacy.

As for the bend cross. It’s art! What’s wrong with that? Is it because it’s not the traditional stright crosses? Do you think that that’s how the cross looked like?
You can choose between a streight cross and a bend cross. Both don’t represent the reality and both have their maening and uses.

In Christ,
~G

 

[Jabronie]

I understand, yes Peter was crucified upside down because he was not worthy… (NotWorthy )

But

Peter, Peter, Peter, Peter…

Why not JESUS!

Instead of supposedly honouring Jesus by honouring Peter’s humblesness and martrydom (sp?)…

Just go straight to JESUS AND worship, remember, honor, him.

As Catholics, we believe in a concept called “The Communion of Saints,” which makes up the Body of Christ and His Church.

What kind of body would we be part of if we ignored most of the members? Why have a Communion of saints if we are to ignore each other? Yes, we worship Christ alone, but we do that WITH Peter and the other saints, both in Heaven and on earth.