Popularity Contest For Priest?

[bengal_fan]

Findnmway:

If I wanted to get into a scripture battle with you I’d throw “many” back at you to prove the priest has a responsibility to take care of a matter such as this.

that’s fine, start throwing them out. and i keep throwing the ones out that show that you have a responsibility also. it is “both/and” not “either/or”. the priest should say something from the pulpit, and you should say something face to face.

 

[The_Barrister]

To Findnmway:

I agree. The priest’s advice is wrong. For far too long the American Church has subscribed to the “go along to get along” theory. In order to meet the expectations of the congregation, the bar is lowered. And once the bar is lowered, the congregation’s sense of decorum dives even lower. And it doesn’t just apply to wayward dressing habits.

I happen to attend a very good church (St. John the Evangelist, Westminster, MD). Instruction for appropriate dress is listed several times a year in the bulletin (ALWAYS prominently featured when the weather turns warmer), and I hear at least one homily a year that at least touches this subject. In turn, there are many men in suits and women in skirts at the Mass.

There are always going to be a large number in t-shirts, but one would hope they look around and correct their behavior the next time they come.

So, I agree that the priest needs to preach from the bully pulpit (because he should, *and * because it works), and not ignore the issue or leave it to parishioners to pick up the slack.

 

[The_Barrister]

bengal_fan:

that’s fine, start throwing them out. and i keep throwing the ones out that show that you have a responsibility also. it is “both/and” not “either/or”. the priest should say something from the pulpit, and you should say something face to face.

I realize there can be several viewpoints on this topic, but I beg to differ with you. I would say that our responsibility is met by a) giving a good example, and b) bringing it up with the priest.

It may be God’s house, but the priest is the caretaker. It’s up to him to enforce the standards. It’s not up to the fellow guests except to demonstrate by their example.

 

[kellifickel]

I wanted to add a little different perspective to this discussion. At my parish, the issue of immodest dress was addressed by the priest, through the use of the church bulletin and announcements. However, this did nothing to solve the problem with almost every “offender.”

The reason this is, I truly believe, is most of the women(who are mostly girls) don’t realize they are dressing immodest. They hear the announcement and think there is nothing wrong with the way they are dressed.

I have soem family friends who, when teens and in their early twenties, dressed in quite skimpy attire, even for mass. I couldn’t believe it. Well, finally I though to bring it up in a discussion with them, and they were shocked at the scandal they were causing- totally unawares. I explained the issue to them, we had a great discussion, and then they understood better boundaries for appropriate clothing.

The fact is, in our culture, it is so normal, especially for younger women, to see scanty clothing. All the girls I have talked to honestly thought they were dressing up nice for mass- look at their examples of what it means ot ‘dress up.’ Many girls come to bodily maturity without realizing the effect that it has. THink of what a little, undeveloped girl can wear- a lot of times, they are wearing the same thing and don’t realize its effect on others.

So, my advice is to talk to the girls, or to their parents. I think as women, we can help- just like the quote from Paul. They may not clue into the kind of advice a priest can and should give during mass and in announcements. It is a great way for laity to take part in helping each other- the priest is busy, too!

 

[The_Barrister]

kellifickel:

I wanted to add a little different perspective to this discussion. At my parish, the issue of immodest dress was addressed by the priest, through the use of the church bulletin and announcements. However, this did nothing to solve the problem with almost every “offender.”

The reason this is, I truly believe, is most of the women(who are mostly girls) don’t realize they are dressing immodest. They hear the announcement and think there is nothing wrong with the way they are dressed.

Okay, I think that’s a valid perspective on this topic. I wish you luck in talking to them!

 

[kellifickel]

Thank you, the Barrister. I like seeing the respect shown for varying opinions, when, posted.

I wanted to add just a little more. A friend of mine, who’s family is from Poland, told me about her recent visit to Poland. Upon entering mass, she noticed some cold stares and head shaking from many of the women. When she entered the pew and knelt down, in her ankle length skirt and wrist length sleeves, the lady next to her looked at ther feet, and admonished her severely for coming into the presence of Christ with bare feet and sandals. My friend, blushing, then noticed that everyone was wearing closed shoes and stockings. She appreciated the admonition, however. She explained to me that in the parishes in her families Polish town, a dress code is strictly enforced by all the women who teach it to each other.

So, I think complete strangers can address this to each other, as well. I think it is traditionally the role of women in society to instruct each other on such matters, and they can express it personally so the message is heard.

Perhaps a mix of the priest and all women instructing each other, starting with family and friends, can correct the problem.

kelli

 

[Salena]

The Barrister:

Okay, I think that’s a valid perspective on this topic. I wish you luck in talking to them!

To Kelli: That is a good point and to be honest I haven’t looked at it that way. Thanks! I understand your point about the Polish Church too, but the difference in my Church is there are no cold stares and head shaking in disapproval. I have only been going to this parish for six months. Although I am 44 years old I do not look my age. I am not bragging, just trying to make the point that if I approach any of these women (not teenagers, but women in their 30’s & 40’s) they will not appreciate it. This is a German community in a rural area. These people have known each other their entire lives and don’t take well to strangers. Those who want to advise me to do such a stupid thing need to understand where I’m coming from before they throw stones (not directed at you Kelli)
Thank you to those who are trying to understand my frustration. It’s not just the dress either, it’s other issues I would like to see the priests take more of a stand on. Summer is here, so it really hit me when I read that post on EWTN
Thanks again!
Gina

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Findnmway:

It’s a known fact that English is the official language and has been. I don’t have “the documents” in front of me to prove this I just assumed it was common knowledge.

Gina,

The US does not have an “official” language.

Many years,

Neil

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Findnmway:

…Again, I am not talking about one woman. I am talking about an epidemic of women in general coming to Mass without any thought of purity. If you believe Christ is present, then you would have a problem with it also… I’m not asking the priest to take care of every little petty problem either as you accused me of.

I am sorry, but you misunderstood me. I did not accuse you of taking any problem to your pastor except this one, and I did not say it was petty. Realize though, that you are not the only one with something to complain about. You make a rather astonishing assumption, though, when you assume I do not believe Christ is present at church. I know He is. I also know for a fact that He ate and drank with prostitutes, who are rather infamous for the impurity of their dress. As you remember, His courage got Him into a great deal of trouble, scandalizing the proponents of purity to the point that they could not put their faith in Him. Purity is an important virtue, but it is not first in the pantheon of virtues.

This is a remarkable true story that might interest you. It is about Fr. Joseph Albrecht, a priest who was courageous in the extreme on this subject:

"One Sunday in the summer of 1866 something unheard of happened at St. Joseph’s Church (Ohio). Several young ladies, egged on by their dissatisfied parents…entered church wearing the new style of clothes with hoop skirts. They also decorated their dresses and bonnets with colorful ribbons and flowers. This was anathema to Fr. Albrecht… Father read the girls a strong lecture on vanity and pride and forbade them to return to church wearing such frivolous dress. If they did appear in church so dressed, he would drive them out. At Vespers that evening the girls defied the pastor’s ultimatum and attended services in all their finery. This disobedience was very upsetting to Fr. Albrecht and he very firmly strode to the pulpit, read a passage from Holy Scripture condemning vanity in dress, then picked up a hickory stick… and chastened the screaming girls out of church.

“His enemies immediately reported the incident to Archbishop Purcell of Cincinatti. The Archbishop replied that hoop skirts and frills were not evil but only current fashion and that Father Albrecht should rescind these rules, apologize for what he said and did, and allow more social freedom in the activities of his parish. When Fr. Albrect failed to do this, and in fact preached against the laxity of morals of the clergy as well as the laity, the Archbishop suspended him and took away his priestly faculties.”

Although Fr. Albrecht wrote a letter in October to his archbishop in Ohio, retracting what he said and asking for reconciliation, he left Ohio for Minnesota without having reconciled officially. After relocating his community in Minnesota, he walked a journey of 200 miles (he was almost 70 at the time) to meet with the Bishop in St. Paul. When he arrived to find the Bishop was not there, he took it as a personal insult. He refused to wait until the Bishop returned, walked back home, and resumed saying Mass. When his Bishop heard of this, he put the church under interdict and excommunicated Father Albrecht, who was from that time forward a formal schismatic. He died in March 1884, having never had the excommunication formally lifted–he decided the great period of grace given by Pope Pius IX during the Jubilee absolved him–a fact of which his parishioners were unaware.

I for one think Fr. Albrecht, bless his soul, is safe in the bosom of God, and without even a gentle lecture when he got there. I’m sure that enduring the inescapable truth of his foolish stubbornness was Purgatory enough. But that’s just me.

As for your crusade for more appropriate dress, there is nothing wrong with it. You are advocating for virtue, and that is a good thing. If you would, though, do so gently, humbly, and without rancor. You will be heard.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

BLB,

While I wouldn’t be so bold as to judge Father Albrecht, C.PP.S., memory eternal, I think it’s safe to say that he allowed his pride to get in the way of his faith - and, on that basis, I’d hardly put forward his extreme reactions to dress as a model on which for others to build. Bishop Thomas Grace, OP, of the Diocese of St. Paul, as well as Bishop Rupert Seidenbush, Vicar Apostolic of Northern Minnesota, both of blessed memory, came to him in Minnesota for purposes of reconciling him, overtures that he refused.

For further info about the strange tale of Father Albrecht, see:

History of Rush Lake Township

Many years,

Neil

 

[Salena]

I would like to apologize to everyone, but especially bengal_fan for my rude comments. In another forum he brought to my attention that I had been rude to him by some of my earlier comments. I read back and have to admit he is right.
If I were rude to anyone else I am truly sorry. I’ve seen many threads where some of the folks were arguing back and forth and I was very uncomfortable with it. Then I turn around and do the same. :banghead: Like I told him, I won’t make excuses for my behavior.
It’s not fair to the rest and especially those were are just trying to give their point of view.
Sincerely,
Gina

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Irish Melkite:

BLB,

While I wouldn’t be so bold as to judge Father Albrecht, C.PP.S., memory eternal, I think it’s safe to say that he allowed his pride to get in the way of his faith - and, on that basis, I’d hardly put forward his extreme reactions to dress as a model on which for others to build. Bishop Thomas Grace, OP, of the Diocese of St. Paul, as well as Bishop Rupert Seidenbush, Vicar Apostolic of Northern Minnesota, both of blessed memory, came to him in Minnesota for purposes of reconciling him, overtures that he refused.

For further info about the strange tale of Father Albrecht, see:

History of Rush Lake Township

Many years,

Neil

Oh, my, no! You didn’t think I was suggesting that her pastor should get himself a hickory stick?!? LOL, that is a good one. Honestly, I will be laughing about that for about a day. And yes, bless all their souls, those good old priests and bishops, but of course, I was not in a million years suggesting anyone follow that particular example of how Father Albrecht lived our faith.

I grew up with many such stubborn old Germans, although none that were his peer. I regard them with complete affection.

 

[Jdg164]

This anecdote is slightly off topic but when I attended Catholic Jr. High, it was required for all girls to wear knee-highs. Well, we would slouch them down to our ankles every chance we had until… Sr. Mary Francis decided to make her rounds with a roll of duct tape and tape our socks up!
And now we find ourselves with yet another way our parishes are lacking without the great Nuns of yesteryear. Wouldn’t life be easier with Sr. Mary Francis running around during mass throwing altar robes or spare habits over the scantily clad teenage girls?

 

[flick427]

nucatholic:

Flick, is English actually the “official” language of America? Can you refer me to some documents that prove this? If America becomes more Hispanic in percentage than any other ethnic group (which we might see in the near future because Hispanic Catholics are more likely to follow the Church’s teachings on birth control and such. They already are more numerous than African Americans) then shouldn’t the language be that of the majority? Can we not have a peaceful coexistence of Languages and Cultures like that of Switzerland which has four official languages(German, French, Italian and Romansch?) Just food for thought…

Please understand that I don’t mean to sound rude, but this is how a nation slowly looses it’s national identity. No one sees this and that is exactly why the US will fall, because of things like this, (they add up).
I know when my ancestors who were German came to the US as well as those of my friends, they learned English because they knew that was how they would be successful. My Grandfather fled Germany when Hitler came to power. Though my grandfather knew how to speak German, he traded speaking German so that he could come to America for freedom and would not be either killed by Hitler or forced to serve in his evil dictatorship. He did not ask for German signs all over the place even though he was in an area with a large amoung of German immigrants (Cincinnati)…No, my Grandfather was a hard working man who learned English. The people in our government who say we should cater to immigrants are doing them an extreme disservice to their country and to the minorities and are in fact setting them up for segregation. You heard Jesus Himself say that a country that is divided against itself will not stand, and I trust His wisdom.
There is not something “written” as far as our official language that I can find at the moment, but our founders did actually toss around several languages that they thought of. English was what they came up with. This is an unwritten rule…go to the www.cia.gov and look for the world factbook. You will notice that the countries where the people are united and the vast majority speak the same language, that they are the powerhouse nations. United we stand, together we fall! That is how the church should be also. I asked a very good friend of mine from Puerto Rico what he thought about the US and this language situation…he said we were fools for letting this happen and that he as a hispanic would expect to learn English when he came to the US mainland, and the majority of people that are pushing this move to tolerance and acceptance are indeed just a bunch of ignorant “gringoes” (pardon my slang) who don’t know what they are getting themselves into.
Sorry if I sound rude, but I don’t know how else to put it.
God bless you !

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Findnmway:

So you have or are raising children, taking care of a man and a home? I would assume you have for you to give me advice such as this! Sorry, but I have my job and the priest has his.
Do you know how long it took me to reply? I have a six year old with ADD, so it’s rare for me to have more than 30 minutes to myself. The point is that I am doing my job. Why can’t the priest do his?
Here is my challenge to you. Next Sunday walk up to a woman who is dressed in an inappropiate way and tell her so. Come back and let me know how much of an impact you made.
The point is, the laity will think more about what a priest has to say than what we have to say.
For you to tell me what I should be doing I’m assuming you have lived a little yourself.

I think it’s time for tempers to cool down a little. A fellow Christian tried to answer a question of yours by pointing you to Scripture - which is useful for teaching and correction - and you responded by telling them to remain silent unless their life was identical to yours. Did you really want friendly advice, or were you just looking for someone to agree with you? Listen to the Word of God.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Findnmway:

It’s a known fact that English is the official language and has been. I don’t have “the documents” in front of me to prove this I just assumed it was common knowledge.

If that is common knowledge then common knowledge is wrong, because if you look for official documentation you won’t find any - the United States has NO official language. Although Ben Franklin did suggest instituting German as the official language as a means of further distancing ourselves from the English…

 

[nucatholic]

The only reason English is the main spoken language of America is because the majority of the original immigrants were English-speakers. However there were many people in what is now America that spoke other languages before the English-speakers even set foot here. Why isn’t one of those the official languages? If there is a larger influx of different language speakers should that become the main language of our country? You said that we are being divided by not melting into one culture? Give me Italian, Greek, German or Palestinian (Christian Palestinian anyways) culture over American culture any day. It is a shame that my Italian family has lost so much of its identity for a NONEXISTENT culture of death which is “progressive” America. I consider myself a Catholic first and foremost. Stop being so worried about holding on to our “American” culture and start worrying about how to make our brothers and sisters grow in their Catholic faith. I can’t stand the nationalism that is put ahead of faith in America. Might as well create a “Church of America” and get it over with because there is so much America worship nowadays that I want to hurl everytime I hear someone say that “America is a Christian nation and is the light of the world.” I love our freedoms here but as a culture we are sinking into the mud. I think our form of hands off Capitalism is the main cause for our downfall. Label me a communist if you want but I don’t see much Capitalism in the first Church…

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Having read now through the apology section of the thread, I realize my attempt at friendly rebuke also sounded edgy. Try to read past that.

 

[misericordie]

Jdg164:

This anecdote is slightly off topic but when I attended Catholic Jr. High, it was required for all girls to wear knee-highs. Well, we would slouch them down to our ankles every chance we had until… Sr. Mary Francis decided to make her rounds with a roll of duct tape and tape our socks up!
And now we find ourselves with yet another way our parishes are lacking without the great Nuns of yesteryear. Wouldn’t life be easier with Sr. Mary Francis running around during mass throwing altar robes or spare habits over the scantily clad teenage girls?

YES, I agree with you. In Mass, some women sit in the pews in front of me, with very short shirts, low cut jeans, very low cut, and one has to see their tattoes in their lower backs, or the strap of a thong. Sisters of yester (nuns) come back!!!

 

[Salena]

Jdg164:

This anecdote is slightly off topic but when I attended Catholic Jr. High, it was required for all girls to wear knee-highs. Well, we would slouch them down to our ankles every chance we had until… Sr. Mary Francis decided to make her rounds with a roll of duct tape and tape our socks up!
And now we find ourselves with yet another way our parishes are lacking without the great Nuns of yesteryear. Wouldn’t life be easier with Sr. Mary Francis running around during mass throwing altar robes or spare habits over the scantily clad teenage girls?

very funny and yes I agree. When I was in school I thought they were so mean, but today I’m grateful for the things they taught me. It’s a shame the young girls today don’t have that type of direction. Our youth seems to be clueless about decency.