population control

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Didn’t the Green Revolution happen in this time period? Can we expect another Green Revolution? The previous one came from massive use of fossil fuels/irrigation/genetically modified crops. Are we going to have a similar technological breakthrough that somehow does not depend at all on fossil fuels?

To be the biggest element in all this is how it all depends on fossil fuels, which are running out. Oil will be nearly gone in 100 years, before that it will get really expensive.

No matter your ideology, you simply can’t disagree with the fact that fossil fuels will run out. As of today, we do not have a replacement. And it’s not just about energy sources to power machinery, it’s about fertilizer and pesticide without which high yield crops will not grow.

If today all fossil fuels vanished, we’d have to go to pre-Green Revolution farming (i.e. growing varieties that don’t need to be covered with fertilizer, pesticide, constantly irrigated etc.) that as far as I remember can feed at most 1-2 billion people.

Something I just don’t understand. Why is the issue of how many people the planet can support so polarizing?
It’s polarizing, in my opinion, because so many of those who concern themselves with it ignore so much, giving rise to the suspicion, at least, that it’s more an ideology than it is a reality-based conclusion. As with Paul Ehrlich decades ago, all the “population bomb” people predict dire results that are always imminent but never seem to happen.

Perhaps the most irritating part of it, to me, is the fact that most of the world is inexorably set on a course for population implosion, not explosion. We don’t really know what that will mean, but we’re starting to get inklings of it in places like Greece, Japan and, indeed, in this country, where the population gets older and older, with fewer and fewer young workers to support the aged and the social welfare systems. But for immigration, we would already be massively short of capable labor. At the extreme margin, we could consider the consequences of the European plagues, in which the populations suddenly (granted, the present decline is not sudden) decreased. Instead of bringing about some kind of better world, it brought conflict, social and political chaos and the massive wasting of infrastructure resources.

As to oil, of course it’s limited. Thing is, we don’t know how limited because there are ideologues who seem bent on preventing exploration and utilization. So we end up with (instead of real knowledge) premature “solutions” in the form of massive subsidies to support things like grain-based fuels, wind and solar programs; subsidies the populace is less and less able to afford as the number of wage-earners dwindles.

People like me who don’t buy into the “population bomb” thing are tempted to suspect that population reduction for its own sake, is the real objective. More suspiciously yet, is it perhaps simply a bug-bear with which to critique the Catholic Church and other religious groups, which stand against birth control and abortion? One can suspect such things because population reduction advocates assume so much and take so little into account.

How much oil will Italy really need in 2040 when, as predicted, its population is half what it is now? Nobody knows. Will Italians be paying $200/gallon to fill their Lamborghinis or will they be huddled in half-deserted cities burning the remains of the houses of long-gone residents in their fireplaces, afraid to travel anywhere because wolves roam the streets and the countryside just as they did after the plagues? We don’t know.

But what we do know is that all of Eurasia, all of North America, probably all of Latin America will suffer a drastic population reduction well before the oil runs out. We can reasonably suspect that premature “solutions” costing astronomical amounts of money will additionally burden those remaining. I recently read that the much-touted German “wind power” schemes cost over a hundred thousand dollars per year per worker served by it. It’s grotesquely cost-ineffective. In thirty years, one might reasonably expect, those expensive machines will be idle, but the remaining Germans will still be paying for them. One might very legitimately suspect there won’t be enough coal miners to dig the coal for power either.
 
Perhaps the most irritating part of it, to me, is the fact that most of the world is inexorably set on a course for population implosion, not explosion.
I don’t understand how you can say this when world population is still growing and projected to hit around 10 billion people by 2100. Even if population growth is negative in some places, it is more than made up for by growth in other places.

I would worry about the decline if it was a worldwide decline and if we had very small numbers to begin with, but worldwide population is growing and the total number of people is astronomical.

Immigration can be a very good solution to a declining local population (if it really is a problem), because you can choose to brain drain other countries by taking their best citizens. Since the nations in decline are the high quality of life Western Nations/Japan, it shouldn’t be hard to attract the best and the brightest from countries they would leave if given the chance.

I can see how birth control may be an issue, but Catholics have a very effective permissible method of birth control in NFP. There is no reason why people couldn’t limit births via NFP.
 
Regarding oil (gasoline) use, we are at the treshhold of a big change due to the invention of lithium ion batteries. I remember 20 years ago, people looking for alternatives used to install huge tanks holding liquefied natural gas on your cars. Another theoretical possibility was to install tanks holding gaseous hydrogen at very high pressure, but that was never implemented for safety reasons. There was a lot of talk about using metallic powders (Ni, Zr, Pd etc) that can adsorb 200-fold their own volume of hydrogen - that would be a hydrogen tank with no risk of explosion but big, heavy, expensive. Now, in 2010, looking at lithium, it’s like a no brainer. Lithium has an extremely low atomic weight, huge energy storage capacity, and it’s not an explosive gas like hydrogen. And we already have electric cars that run 45 miles on a single battery charge - enough for typical daily commute. I have no idea why engineers were wasting their time dreaming about hydrogen 20 years ago, why nobody thought about lithium batteries back then.

To turn this into a real revolution, we need one more thing: a bunch of new nuclear energy plants to produce electricity. Because we will need to plug in our electric cars to recharge them, and if we have to use oil imported from Saudi Arabia to produce that electricity, that won’t solve the problem. However, uranium is abundant in friendly countries like Canada and Australia. If we could reduce our oil imports by 20%, oil prices would come crashing down not by 20%, but more like to one half or even one quarter of the present prices. The Arab states would go bankrupt!

I haven’t even mentioned oil shales. The USA has huge reserves of oil shales (equivalent to some 10 times the world’s known oil reserves today), but extracting oil from those shales with present technology would cost $250 per barrel and it’s not a mature technology. I hope someone will invent a better technology, just as someone else invented the lithium ion battery…
 
I don’t understand how you can say this when world population is still growing and projected to hit around 10 billion people by 2100. Even if population growth is negative in some places, it is more than made up for by growth in other places.

I would worry about the decline if it was a worldwide decline and if we had very small numbers to begin with, but worldwide population is growing and the total number of people is astronomical.

Immigration can be a very good solution to a declining local population (if it really is a problem), because you can choose to brain drain other countries by taking their best citizens. Since the nations in decline are the high quality of life Western Nations/Japan, it shouldn’t be hard to attract the best and the brightest from countries they would leave if given the chance.

I can see how birth control may be an issue, but Catholics have a very effective permissible method of birth control in NFP. There is no reason why people couldn’t limit births via NFP.
There are projections and projections. If Ehrlich had been right, we would have been out of oil, most metals and out of food thirty years ago. I am not a mathemetician, so I don’t know why no population ever recovers from a birth rate of 1.5/woman or less. But there seems to be general agreement that it’s so. Many are the countries below that, including China. The U.S. is not that far from it when one looks only at native-born birth rates. No European country, including Russia (where it’s catastrophic), is at replacement rate.

But when you consider that 50 years of no births at all would end the human race permanently, it’s not terribly hard to imagine why 1.5 per couple would prove very inadequate in a relatively short time.

If that 10 billion is correct, and I’m not sure it is, the assumption seems to be that they will all live forever. What if 3/4 of them are beyond child-bearing years at that point? It certainly seems possible, given the awful birth rates in almost all countries. As a practical matter, how many women have children at all other than within a 20 year span of time? And if their daughters have no more than their mothers did within their 20 years, it would not take long for the population to get very old, keeping in mind that people in developed countries live a good forty years after most have stopped having children. If, each 20 years, births fail to equal the number of their parents by 1/4, it would not take long for there to be very few young ones. Within a single human life span, a 1.5 birth rate would guarantee a halving of the population, just using simple math. Since it would be a geometric retrogression however, (which my poor math skills won’t allow me to do), it would be worse than that.

It truly is projected that Italy’s population (birth rate 1.3) will be cut in half by 2040, and of that population an inordinately large number will be old. Germany’s is no better. Picture that, if immigration does not somehow fill it in. Half the houses empty. Half the street maintenance. Half the manufacturing. Half the farming, the rest of the countryside gone wild. Half the wineries in ruins. Half the public buildings unused and untended and falling apart. Twenty and thirty year old derelict cars everywhere that nobody bothers to salvage. Whole areas where authorities have given up trying to supply with water, electricity, trash pickup or sewage service, and where only a few derelicts, outlaws and a lot of wild animals live. China’s birth rate is about the same as Italy’s and Germany’s. So is Russia’s.

Whatever you do, don’t invest in Italian, German, Russian or Chinese real estate.😉
 
If that 10 billion is correct, and I’m not sure it is, the assumption seems to be that they will all live forever. What if 3/4 of them are beyond child-bearing years at that point? It certainly seems possible, given the awful birth rates in almost all countries. As a practical matter, how many women have children at all other than within a 20 year span of time? And if their daughters have no more than their mothers did within their 20 years, it would not take long for the population to get very old, keeping in mind that people in developed countries live a good forty years after most have stopped having children. If, each 20 years, births fail to equal the number of their parents by 1/4, it would not take long for there to be very few young ones. Within a single human life span, a 1.5 birth rate would guarantee a halving of the population, just using simple math. Since it would be a geometric retrogression however, (which my poor math skills won’t allow me to do), it would be worse than that.
For there to be a decline, you’d need the world’s fertility rate to drop past a certain point (it’s something like 2.1), as of today it is well above that.

What are some things that can make it drop? Women getting educated in third world nations, could happen, will it? Hard to say.

More likely that resource shortages will increase child mortality rate and reduce the number of children who survive to procreate. This is the thing we want to avoid though, because when nature cuts it’s not very fun for those on the front lines. Nor is it very fun for the environment and those of us who value it. I don’t want rainforests to be wiped out for farmland so that the maximum number of people that can live on earth is reached before nature pushes back. So one can hope for the latter option.

Long term, low fertility rates would be a problem. Like when there are so few of us we’d be afraid of extinction. It would be easy to fight that however, all you’d have to do is give women big incentives to have kids. The reason why fertility rates are low in the industrialized world is that children are generally a cost rather than a benefit. You can’t send them out to earn a paycheck, you don’t need them on the farm because few people farm, you do however have to sink in a lot of money and time into them. Most people look around and see that 1 child or maybe 2 children is the best number given these conditions.

If societies were really interested in more children, they could do things like offer women free education for having a child, fight discrimination against young mothers in the workplace, provide free day care, provide free extracurriculars, essentially have society buy the child’s food and pay for the child’s education.

If raising a child for society ends up being a “job” you get paid for, rather than pay to do, you’d see more people having kids. If society was interested in large numbers of kids, could pay families who have, say 10 of them, and focus on raising them something like 500k a year. You’d se a lot of people doing it then.
 
For there to be a decline, you’d need the world’s fertility rate to drop past a certain point (it’s something like 2.1), as of today it is well above that.

What are some things that can make it drop? Women getting educated in third world nations, could happen, will it? Hard to say.

More likely that resource shortages will increase child mortality rate and reduce the number of children who survive to procreate. This is the thing we want to avoid though, because when nature cuts it’s not very fun for those on the front lines. Nor is it very fun for the environment and those of us who value it. I don’t want rainforests to be wiped out for farmland so that the maximum number of people that can live on earth is reached before nature pushes back. So one can hope for the latter option.

Long term, low fertility rates would be a problem. Like when there are so few of us we’d be afraid of extinction. It would be easy to fight that however, all you’d have to do is give women big incentives to have kids. The reason why fertility rates are low in the industrialized world is that children are generally a cost rather than a benefit. You can’t send them out to earn a paycheck, you don’t need them on the farm because few people farm, you do however have to sink in a lot of money and time into them. Most people look around and see that 1 child or maybe 2 children is the best number given these conditions.

If societies were really interested in more children, they could do things like offer women free education for having a child, fight discrimination against young mothers in the workplace, provide free day care, provide free extracurriculars, essentially have society buy the child’s food and pay for the child’s education.

If raising a child for society ends up being a “job” you get paid for, rather than pay to do, you’d see more people having kids. If society was interested in large numbers of kids, could pay families who have, say 10 of them, and focus on raising them something like 500k a year. You’d se a lot of people doing it then.
60% of the world’s people live in Asia. The birth rate in Asia is just a smidgeon below the replacement rate. But that whole thing is skewed by the fact that India has just a tiny bit below the replacement rate at about 2.0 per woman, while China is massively below it at about 1.3. Japan, at about .8 is a disaster in the making, and soon. The high birth rates in Asia are in the muslim areas like the “stans”. Average rates, in themselves, don’t tell a person a whole lot. That’s particularly true in China where a cultural bias in favor of having boys causes people to abort girls. As a result, the gender imbalance gives a false potential population replacement rate impression. Boys can’t have children without girls, so that 1.3 rate can only accelerate downward in time unless something changes it.

Also, one has to wonder whether the Indian rate will continue dropping, as it has been doing for some time. Urbanization, improved standards of living. Who knows what causes it?

I don’t know about subsidies for having children. They have those in Russia and Japan and they have been a failure.

I’m not sure why people don’t have children. It probably varies with individuals and within particular societies. If I absolutely had to guess, I would guess that it has a lot to do with how much one values the future versus the here and now. It’s hard to totally ascribe it to urbanization and the relative “economic” value of children, because the birth rates differ in urbanized countries. (e.g., native born Americans at 1.8 versus Japanese at .8)
 
I’m not sure why people don’t have children. It probably varies with individuals and within particular societies. If I absolutely had to guess, I would guess that it has a lot to do with how much one values the future versus the here and now. It’s hard to totally ascribe it to urbanization and the relative “economic” value of children, because the birth rates differ in urbanized countries. (e.g., native born Americans at 1.8 versus Japanese at .8)
I don’t know, I mean, another reason people might not be too interested in having children is that they’re no longer needed for retirement security. America’s retirement programs are not as generous as those of the other industrialized nations, so maybe more Americans feel the pressure to have more children to have someone to take care of them in old age?

America generally tends to be an outlier when industrialized countries are compared.
 
I don’t know about subsidies for having children. They have those in Russia and Japan and they have been a failure.
They don’t give them very much. cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/04/japan-plans-to-pay-families-to-have-children/
A proposed plan to pay parents about $3,400 a year per child has got her thinking seriously about expanding her family. The cash for kids plan is the brainchild of the country’s new ruling Democratic Party of Japan, which came into power during the elections this week. The proposal has garnered supporters and critics.
3400 a year is just so little, it costs way more than that to raise a child. For someone who wants a child but can’t afford one, you’d have to give enough to cover the cost of raising it.

And for people who are on the fence about wanting one or don’t want one, you’d have to pay more than it costs to raise them.

They’re probably not too woried about their decline, and are looking to find the minimum number they’d have to pay people to achieve the kind of population they want.
 
I don’t know, I mean, another reason people might not be too interested in having children is that they’re no longer needed for retirement security. America’s retirement programs are not as generous as those of the other industrialized nations, so maybe more Americans feel the pressure to have more children to have someone to take care of them in old age?

America generally tends to be an outlier when industrialized countries are compared.
Being an “outlier” might be the only thing that ultimately pevents population collapse in the U.S.

There is really no reason to believe people fail t o have children because they feel their retirement is secure. Nor should people think that way. Ultimately, if the aging population requires more and more of wage-earners’ income, it may dicourage family formation in the short run, but make retirement impossible in the long run. A society simply cannot support more people and more generously, while the working population drops. It’s foolish to think that. Never before now, for instance, did a significant segment of the working population view with equanimity massive cuts in benefits for the elderly. But a significant portion of the population now seems okay with very large cuts in Medicare and a shift of those resources to middle class working people. Keep in mind that the aging of a population with a below-replacement birth rate is progressive.

Ironically, in the long run, it may be only those who have a number of children who might have some reasonable expectation of decent support in old age.
 
They don’t give them very much. cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/04/japan-plans-to-pay-families-to-have-children/

3400 a year is just so little, it costs way more than that to raise a child. For someone who wants a child but can’t afford one, you’d have to give enough to cover the cost of raising it.

And for people who are on the fence about wanting one or don’t want one, you’d have to pay more than it costs to raise them.

They’re probably not too woried about their decline, and are looking to find the minimum number they’d have to pay people to achieve the kind of population they want.
Never did I say paying people to have children is an appropriate measure. Certainly it costs far more than this to raise a child. Yet, some people choose to do it. Why they do it is probably more related to being willing to give than to receive. Also, of course, one would have to have some reasonable belief in the childrens’ being able to thrive in the context of the conditions theyre likely to encounter. We have all been told for a very long time not only that “we deserve it” to live as well as possible, but the idea that the world is overcrowded; that we’re running out of everything, has been so pervasively propagandized for so long, it’s not improbable that many have come to believe it. The “Culture of Death” is not only about abortion. It’s about nihilism generally.

Possibly it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy, since population collapse does not paint a pretty picture. ironically, however, it may result in a much higher value to labor as laborers grow fewer and fewer. That did happen following the “Black Death”. However, it also greatly devalued assets upon which those in their later years depended, and did reduce the willingness of labor to support other segments of the population. There is no particular reason to expect them to be greatly generous in the financial burdens they may wish to place on themselves for the sake of overwhelming numbers of the aged. It is not unreasonable to expect “encouragement to die” may become more pressing in the future.

The death spiral of societies unwilling to have children accelerates, which is precisely what we’re seeing now.
 
Being an “outlier” might be the only thing that ultimately pevents population collapse in the U.S.
Who is reproducing in America? Do the high birth rates of illegal immigrants from Mexico factor in?
There is really no reason to believe people fail t o have children because they feel their retirement is secure.
Why? Financial security is thought to be the reason for gender selective abortions in India (since the male children take care of their parents whereas the females join their husband’s family).

It certainly isn’t unreasonable that people in countries without good retirement plans would choose to have more children to be taken care of in old oage.
Ironically, in the long run, it may be only those who have a number of children who might have some reasonable expectation of decent support in old age.
Maybe. I mean, many things play a part. Children are very expensive to raise, so maybe being childless would enable a person to save money for retirement and not need children to take care of them. If the scale were tipped sufficiently that it became an advantage to have more children, more people would have more children.
Why they do it is probably more related to being willing to give than to receive.
Who knows why some people choose to have children and others don’t.

There are definitely too many negatives in our society associated with having many children. It’s simply too expensive, and having one or two seems the best option.
We have all been told for a very long time not only that “we deserve it” to live as well as possible, but the idea that the world is overcrowded; that we’re running out of everything, has been so pervasively propagandized for so long, it’s not improbable that many have come to believe it.
We are running out of things though, we’re not living sustainably today. .
The death spiral of societies unwilling to have children accelerates, which is precisely what we’re seeing now.
I’d agree with you if this was worldwide and if we only had a few million people as opposed to billions. I’m more concerned that rainforests are being destroyed to make room for farmland than I am with low birth rates in industrialized nations.

I do think eventually it would make sense to stabilize population, but it seems it would be much better to stabilize it at 1 billion than 6. As it stands we’re on our way to hitting 10 and wiping out other species in the process. The additional people are living in squalor too, so it’s not as if they’re brilliant scientists contributing to humanity or something like that, those types are generally being born in small families in industrialized nations.
 
Who is reproducing in America? Do the high birth rates of illegal immigrants from Mexico factor in? The birth rate in the U.S. is 2.1, exactly replacement rate. However, among native-born it is 1.8, a downward sprial. Immigrants’ higher birth rates make the difference.

It certainly isn’t unreasonable that people in countries without good retirement plans would choose to have more children to be taken care of in old oage. ** I assume you’re saying the U.S. does not have “good retirement plans” relative to, say, Germany. I am unaware of any study that compares retirement circumstances of all countries, including not only government programs but private pensions, asset accumulation, etc. In the long run, it really doesn’t matter, though, how generous retirement plans are in a country that cannot sustain them over time. **

Maybe. I mean, many things play a part. Children are very expensive to raise, so maybe being childless would enable a person to save money for retirement and not need children to take care of them. If the scale were tipped sufficiently that it became an advantage to have more children, more people would have more children. ** The advantage of having children in a place like the U.S. is not in obtaining support from them later on. It is indisputably more economically advantageous, right now, to have no children at all. How it will be in the future, however, is another thing. Japan is already having difficulty supporting its old people. **

Who knows why some people choose to have children and others don’t. It probably varies from place to place. That the U.S., for instance, has a much higher birth rate among native-born relative to, say, Scandinavia, probably correlates at least to some degree with the fact that religious practice is much more prevalent in the former than in the latter. Religious people tend to have faith in more ways than one.

There are definitely too many negatives in our society associated with having many children. It’s simply too expensive, and having one or two seems the best option.
** Having one dooms the society to collapse. It is just silly to say people cannot afford children in an absolute sense. It’s a matter of what one’s priorities are.**

We are running out of things though, we’re not living sustainably today. .
** Nobody ever lived sustainably. Even hunter-gatherers didn’t. They would deplete one area then move on. Sometimes there was not a bountiful place to which to move on. Humanity’s ability to sustain itself has actually increased over the last decades, and the only reason to doubt it can continue to do so (absent population implosion) is pessimism.**

I’d agree with you if this was worldwide and if we only had a few million people as opposed to billions. I’m more concerned that rainforests are being destroyed to make room for farmland than I am with low birth rates in industrialized nations. I take it you do not know the tropical rainforests as we know them are a fairly modern accretion. They were once heavily populated and were part of a mixed farming/silvoculture economy.

I do think eventually it would make sense to stabilize population, but it seems it would be much better to stabilize it at 1 billion than 6. As it stands we’re on our way to hitting 10 and wiping out other species in the process. The additional people are living in squalor too, so it’s not as if they’re brilliant scientists contributing to humanity or something like that, those types are generally being born in small families in industrialized nations.
Again, whether species are wiped out or preserved depends on the wealth and the know-how of the populations. Wildlife in the U.S. is on the increase, and has been for quite some time. Mismanaged economies are always hard on wildlife and on people as well.
The additional people are not living in squalor in most parts of the world; only the mismanaged parts. Can you even seriously entertain the notion that Chinese today live worse than they did in, say, 1960? They live incomparably better, because their economy is far better managed. In their case “better managed” means “less managed.”

Do you truly believe India, once the poster child for poverty, has produced no scientists or others who contribute? Have you ever asked yourself why, for example, Silicon Valley and the medical community imports so many of them? India, by the way, feeds itself. It didn’t even do that in the late 19th Century when there were far fewer Indians than there are now.
India presently has just short of a replacement birth rate. There are, however, more people in India than there are in all of Africa, and less land.

A reduction from 6 billion to 1 billion. Do you, then, propose that you, alone, support six seniors? That’s really what you’re saying, you know, because the extra five billion won’t all drop dead the minute you decree the world must shrink to 1 billion. I don’t know where you live, but picture your city reduced in population to 1/6 of what it is now. You won’t even have water. Have you not read what happens when cities depopulate significantly? Nothing works because the infrastructure is balanced to population growth and requires proportionate labor to keep it going. You can’t undo a lot of it. I know for a fact what happens when a large segment of a rural area goes unused, and it isn’t pleasant or pretty.
 
Nobody ever lived sustainably. Even hunter-gatherers didn’t. They would deplete one area then move on. Sometimes there was not a bountiful place to which to move on. Humanity’s ability to sustain itself has actually increased over the last decades, and the only reason to doubt it can continue to do so (absent population implosion) is pessimism.
We need to live sustainably however, because before we could always expand/develop new technologies. But expecting this to be boundless doesn’t make much sense to me. Unless we develop the technology to synthesize Earth like planets from thin air we’re going to have to eventually stop and find a way to live sustainably, or face much hardship.
I take it you do not know the tropical rainforests as we know them are a fairly modern accretion. They were once heavily populated and were part of a mixed farming/silvoculture economy.
Tropical forests are a modern accretion that were once heavily populated? Come on. Until recently there simply weren’t enough people to heavily populate the rain forests.

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I saw a documentary recently about the Falls of Iguacu, a really beautiful place with varied wildlife. Something like 7% of the rainforest there remains, surrounded by farmland to feed an increasing population.
Do you truly believe India, once the poster child for poverty, has produced no scientists or others who contribute?
That’s not what I said. The Indians who are becoming scientists and other educated professionals are from the upper echelons of their society. People in India who live in poverty are living horrid lives, and it’s highly unlikely that the children they will have will ever amount to anything simply because they won’t have the opportunity to get an education and so on. That’s also the people who have large families. Educated professionals tend to have small families.
A reduction from 6 billion to 1 billion. Do you, then, propose that you, alone, support six seniors?
Seniors are still capable of working, they’re also capable of saving for retirement throughout their lives. With modern medical technology, being old today is not the same as what it once was, and plenty of jobs can be done until the faculties give out.

I don’t see what your argument is here, at some point we need to stabilize the population. Relying on continuous growth is silly because it’s impossible for us to indefinitely grow. We need to find a way to exist with a stable population. A decline can happen gradually, and once what is believed to be the optimum number of people is reached incentives can be given to people to have enough kids to have a stable population.
 
Tropical forests are a modern accretion that were once heavily populated? Come on. Until recently there simply weren’t enough people to heavily populate the rain forests.

That’s not what I said. The Indians who are becoming scientists and other educated professionals are from the upper echelons of their society. People in India who live in poverty are living horrid lives, and it’s highly unlikely that the children they will have will ever amount to anything simply because they won’t have the opportunity to get an education and so on. That’s also the people who have large families. Educated professionals tend to have small families.

Seniors are still capable of working, they’re also capable of saving for retirement throughout their lives. With modern medical technology, being old today is not the same as what it once was, and plenty of jobs can be done until the faculties give out.

I don’t see what your argument is here, at some point we need to stabilize the population. Relying on continuous growth is silly because it’s impossible for us to indefinitely grow. We need to find a way to exist with a stable population. A decline can happen gradually, and once what is believed to be the optimum number of people is reached incentives can be given to people to have enough kids to have a stable population.
Point 1: It’s true. Please read “1491”. Certainly in Amazonia there was a terrific dieoff (due to the very early introduction of Eurasian disease), that is only now beginninng to be reversed. It has only recently been realized that what we think were “primeval forests” once contained vast tracts of farmland and silvoculture. A number of scholarly articles have been written about this. Some are cited in the book. Some are not.

Point 2: Time will tell on this. There is far more reason to believe India is an up and coming economy that is on a solid upward trend, than there is to believe it is permanently mired in poverty. Even the Indian government now tacitly admits to decades of mismanagement.

Point 3: True to a degree. Many seniors, though, are not, particularly those who work in physically demanding occupations. But in any event, that’s not what we’re talking about when we talk about more or less generous pension plans. Present governmental pension plans do not remotely take continuing capacity into account.

Point 4: Same point as at the beginning. We do not know what the “optimum” population of the world is. My argument is that it’s limited by human ingenuity only. Yours, as near as I can tell, is that we have already reached it; the evidence being that poverty exists in some places. That’s an unjustified leap, inasmuch as those parts of the world in which poverty is a serious problem are those in which governmental mismanagement prevents the talents of the people and the resources in such places from being properly utilized.

And, as we have seen, present incentives to have children, at least, are ineffective. It needs to be realized that even massively incentivizing children is improbable in a population decline, inasmuch as those who work will also have to support the aging population that does not.

In the long run, it seems likely the earth will be inherited by those whose religious beliefs are inconsistent with arbitrary population reduction. Those who believe in population reduction will likely self-fulfill their own ideologies by dying out. And, there is some evidence that’s exactly what they’re doing. Those who do not will take their places. In Europe, the replacements are likely to be Muslim. In North America, it will likely be a combination of Hispanics and “Anglos” of more traditional religious values. Such people will not listen to the advice of the doomsayers.

It seems a shame, really, that the “western world” that has given so much to the world, is likely to go extinct at least in its European birthplace. But if what we’re seeing in Europe now is the “end game” of western civilization, perhaps one can say it deserves the death it has brought upon itself. It once did have better guiding principles, but it has taken on ideologies that are alien to its better self.
 
We need to live sustainably however, because before we could always expand/develop new technologies. But expecting this to be boundless doesn’t make much sense to me. Unless we develop the technology to synthesize Earth like planets from thin air we’re going to have to eventually stop and find a way to live sustainably, or face much hardship.

Tropical forests are a modern accretion that were once heavily populated? Come on. Until recently there simply weren’t enough people to heavily populate the rain forests.

http://www.sustainablescale.org/images/uploaded/Population/populationgrowth.JPG

I saw a documentary recently about the Falls of Iguacu, a really beautiful place with varied wildlife. Something like 7% of the rainforest there remains, surrounded by farmland to feed an increasing population.

That’s not what I said. The Indians who are becoming scientists and other educated professionals are from the upper echelons of their society. People in India who live in poverty are living horrid lives, and it’s highly unlikely that the children they will have will ever amount to anything simply because they won’t have the opportunity to get an education and so on. That’s also the people who have large families. Educated professionals tend to have small families.

Seniors are still capable of working, they’re also capable of saving for retirement throughout their lives. With modern medical technology, being old today is not the same as what it once was, and plenty of jobs can be done until the faculties give out.

I don’t see what your argument is here, at some point we need to stabilize the population. Relying on continuous growth is silly because it’s impossible for us to indefinitely grow. We need to find a way to exist with a stable population. A decline can happen gradually, and once what is believed to be the optimum number of people is reached incentives can be given to people to have enough kids to have a stable population.
Yep before we always had more room to expand and so on. And somehow I doubt that making new earth;s techology will ever come along. Probably the best will be terraforming which could still likely take hundreds maybe thousands of years or finding an earth like planet. Of course there would still be the problem of getting to said planet. I mean this isn;t the startrek universe warp drive probably isn;t possible.

Actually the idea that the rainforests may have had millions of people living in them at one time seems to be well supported. The idea that the majority of the rainforest is a manmade construct maybe not so much. news.mongabay.com/2007/0306-amazon.html It seems to me that while part of the Amazon rainforest may be so due to human influence the idea that it is mostly due to human influence probably isn;t true. And even if it is…does that mean we should do whatever we want with it? The rainforests are one of the most diverse places on the earth. We are destorying new species of plant and animal before we can even discover them. And potentially destorying new cures for diseases as well. I don;t have a problem with the rainforests being used…but there is a difference between wiping them out completely and sustainable use that ensure that our descedents will have them to benefit from.

But yeah I agree with you we can;t just keep on expanding endlessly. Cause eventually we are going to hit that brick wall. And somehow I donlt think famine on a massive scale wars over rapidly disappearing resources and so on are the way we want our population to be stablized. And while stablizing it otherways probably wonlt be easy and with out potential negative conseqences in the short run. I think in the long run our descendents would be glad we did it.

Also while I do think that we may continue to develop new techologies. I think it is foolish to think that there will always be a new techology that will bail us out so to speak and allow us to keep increasing our population. Not to mention I think quality of life is important to look at too. Sure maybe the earth could support 20 billion people if we all lived in horrible conditions. But if most of the people on the planet right now lived a lifestyle similar to that of lets say your average middle class American we would probably be in deep trouble real fast. And I donlt think thinking this way is pessimism I think it is realism.
 
It’s not Catholic teaching that whether a child is conceived is God’s decision alone. Otherwise, why would NFP even be taught if the couple gets no say, and why would artificial birth control be opposed?

We do have a say, or God’s will happens to exactly coincide with biology.

Do you wanna live in a barren world? I don’t. You want your descendants to read about the animals of today the way we read about dinosaurs, never seeing them? You don’t enjoy nature?
This is all just sad and rather pathetic—yet a sterling example of those who twist God into their own image and likeness.

I will continue to oppose the greenies and their cult of death.
 
This is all just sad and rather pathetic—yet a sterling example of those who twist God into their own image and likeness.

I will continue to oppose the greenies and their cult of death.
So are you saying you would have no problem with a barren world. Do you think God would be ok with this. Sure some greenies as you call them may go overboard. But could we agree that proper and sustainable use of our limited resources is a wise thing? That we donlt want to leave our descendents a barren world for them to live in?
 
Yep before we always had more room to expand and so on. And somehow I doubt that making new earth;s techology will ever come along. Probably the best will be terraforming which could still likely take hundreds maybe thousands of years or finding an earth like planet. Of course there would still be the problem of getting to said planet. I mean this isn;t the startrek universe warp drive probably isn;t possible.

Actually the idea that the rainforests may have had millions of people living in them at one time seems to be well supported. The idea that the majority of the rainforest is a manmade construct maybe not so much. news.mongabay.com/2007/0306-amazon.html It seems to me that while part of the Amazon rainforest may be so due to human influence the idea that it is mostly due to human influence probably isn;t true. And even if it is…does that mean we should do whatever we want with it? The rainforests are one of the most diverse places on the earth. We are destorying new species of plant and animal before we can even discover them. And potentially destorying new cures for diseases as well. I don;t have a problem with the rainforests being used…but there is a difference between wiping them out completely and sustainable use that ensure that our descedents will have them to benefit from.

But yeah I agree with you we can;t just keep on expanding endlessly. Cause eventually we are going to hit that brick wall. And somehow I donlt think famine on a massive scale wars over rapidly disappearing resources and so on are the way we want our population to be stablized. And while stablizing it otherways probably wonlt be easy and with out potential negative conseqences in the short run. I think in the long run our descendents would be glad we did it.

Also while I do think that we may continue to develop new techologies. I think it is foolish to think that there will always be a new techology that will bail us out so to speak and allow us to keep increasing our population. Not to mention I think quality of life is important to look at too. Sure maybe the earth could support 20 billion people if we all lived in horrible conditions. But if most of the people on the planet right now lived a lifestyle similar to that of lets say your average middle class American we would probably be in deep trouble real fast. And I donlt think thinking this way is pessimism I think it is realism.
I would join with those who say that colonizing other planets is a bunch of hooey.

I’m not sure the “jury is in” when it comes to a lot of the tropical rain forests. It doesn’t take very long for a piece of real estate to revert back to what seems to us a “wild state”. But all “wild states” are transitional, and what we see did not necessarily originate in situ.

In my own part of the country, it was once thought that the “primeval state” was one of deep, totally natural forests in which a few Indians roamed. Actually, later scholarship seems to have demonstrated that the Indians both farmed and “ranched” over all of it. Since they had no domesticated ungulates, they, in effect, prepared the land for the wild ones; buffalo, elk, etc, primarily by burning; something they did without fail every year. They had ways of inducing those otherwise migratory animals to winter over in significant numbers as well. That affected the grassland segments profoundly and tended to encourage pine growth versus hardwood growth, because the native pines are more resistant to fire than are hardwoods.

Once the burning stopped (with white settlers) the place very quickly turned to hardwood forest pervasively when farmers failed to keep up with woody growth. Slowly, in recent years, something closer to the state the INdians had it in has tended to prevail, because present owners see advantages in it. The State has, however, encouraged the laborious planting and nurturing of pines which don’t compete well against hardwoods in the absence of burning.

Perhaps the most amusing discovery was the state’s pride in nurturing the few remaining stands of “native pecans”, thought to be a separate species. With the advent of DNA mapping, they later figured out that Indians had brought the pecan trees from Texas by way of Oklahoma. They figured out that Indians purposely planted black walnuts everywhere, for the same reason. Walnuts, as well as pecans, are very nutritious food sources, and tend to grow in the hollows (as opposed to hillsides and hilltops) where fire is less of a threat. The latter are better suited than are pecans, and exude a natural herbicide. So, with unrestrained growth, the walnuts tended to prevail, leaving the pecans in isolated pockets. It is extraordinarily difficult to detect past silvoculture in any way other than by DNA analysis or simply observing that “there’s a whole lot of species X in region Y”

Some of the species found in the Amazon basin today are not from there either, but were brought in precolumbian times to the region by Indians.

I don’t think anyone knows what a “primeval state” is, anywhere in the tropics or in the temperate zones.

I certainly did not say that the “carrying capacity” of the earth is infinite. Of course it isn’t. But in the face of impending population implosions which seem to accompany most modern development, and the societal problems that can engender, I think it is very premature to declare that the maximum carrying capacity is “X”. Given that most poverty today is in mismanaged economies, I really don’t think we can credibly reason back to overpopulation as the cause.

But, I suppose if I wanted to be selfish about it, I would have no complaint about the seeming desire of the latter day Ehrlich followers wishing to limit their numbers. Someone will eventually take their place, and if not their descendants, someone else’s, including mine. Unless all governments worldwide are, like China, going to force non-reproduction at the point of a gun, it’s inevitable. Some of those politically incorrect proliferators will be friendly to western civilization. Some won’t be.
 
Point 1: It’s true. Please read “1491”. Certainly in Amazonia there was a terrific dieoff (due to the very early introduction of Eurasian disease), that is only now beginninng to be reversed. It has only recently been realized that what we think were “primeval forests” once contained vast tracts of farmland and silvoculture. A number of scholarly articles have been written about this. Some are cited in the book. Some are not.
To what extent though? If 10, 000 years ago there was only 1 million people on the entire planet, and 2000 years ago only 250 million worldwide how heavily could we have populated anything? It just doesn’t seem like those numbers of people would have been able to do significant damage to anything, considering that we didn’t even have technology.
And, as we have seen, present incentives to have children, at least, are ineffective. It needs to be realized that even massively incentivizing children is improbable in a population decline, inasmuch as those who work will also have to support the aging population that does not.
The example of Japan offering 3k dollars a year for a child isn’t much of an incentive, imagine they made it 30k a year for your second child. (Worth it, since the investment will pay off when the child grows up and starts working.)
In the long run, it seems likely the earth will be inherited by those whose religious beliefs are inconsistent with arbitrary population reduction. Those who believe in population reduction will likely self-fulfill their own ideologies by dying out. And, there is some evidence that’s exactly what they’re doing. Those who do not will take their places. In Europe, the replacements are likely to be Muslim. In North America, it will likely be a combination of Hispanics and “Anglos” of more traditional religious values. Such people will not listen to the advice of the doomsayers.
It seems a shame, really, that the “western world” that has given so much to the world, is likely to go extinct at least in its European birthplace. But if what we’re seeing in Europe now is the “end game” of western civilization, perhaps one can say it deserves the death it has brought upon itself. It once did have better guiding principles, but it has taken on ideologies that are alien to its better self.
I wouldn’t worry that much about it. Those people might be fewer in numbers, but they’ll hold the power and will still be the academics and other professionals. For most of human history only a small percentage of population was able to do work that advanced all of humanity, most of the rest slaved away at menial work just to get by.

Not to mention that ideology doesn’t get passed down along with the genes, and the elites will always be able to pull the best and the brightest into the fold.
 
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