Population control

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Population control is a very touchy subject, but a very important one at that as it will be a serious issue i the coming century.

Before i begin, the fact of the matter is that the earth is ALREADY overpopulated by humans and recent advances in medical technology have made this even “worse” as most of the world has seen a massive decline in infant mortality common in industrializing nations. If the population continues to rise we will see mass famine across the globe and eventually war and destruction over our planet remaining natural resources (Which are already being sucked dry at an alarming rate).

So, the question is, how do we go about preventing the inevitable destruction of our planets natural resources while not committing immoral acts and breaching peoples personal freedoms.

Im no longer Catholic but back in Catholic HS i had a discussion with one of the “churchy kids” and when the issue of population came up i was immediately accused of wanting to kill babys and old people. This was entirely not true, and i reminded her that as a catholic it was her duty to be a good steward of the planet, and that included making sure the human race dosn’t destroy the planet (and possibly itself) by striping it dry and polluting it.

The vibe i got from alot of the Catholic people i knew was that “Population Control” involved forced abortions and sterilization of women, like what happens in China. Personally i find these things horrendous and would never tolerate them, but instead proposed to them this:

In ancient times having many children was necessary, because they provided labor, a means for defence, and a way to carry on family lineage. When countries begin industrialization, medical advances, improved living conditions, and higher food production reduce the infant mortality rate and improve life expectancy quickly, but cultural change takes more time. This is very evident in Africa and Asia where countries are in various stages of industrialization. Their IMRs and ALFs have dropped sharply and are continuing too, but the average children per women has not, and a such they are seeing exploding populations.

So, is the answer to this problem Chinas “One Child Policy”? NO, in fact the answer to the problem is right in front of our eyes. Research has shown that, while country’s going through industrialization experience rapid industrial growth, post-industrial nations start to see population decline. The United states population is growing, but only because of immigration, most of Europe as well as Japan is experiencing severe population decline (Especialy Russia and Italy) that is leaving their welfare state governments begging for more children to pay the elderlies bills. This is also part of the reason why many in Europe are terrified that the continent will soon be majority Muslim, as immigrants arrive en mass from countries with high birth rates and are breeding out the local population.

So, the answer is simple, once a nation reaches a certain level of economic development, its population begins to drop of naturally, as a massive family is no longer necessary. The answer is to aid the developing world in escaping poverty (something Christians are already attempting to do). Improve the quality of life globally, and the population should naturally fall to a safe, sustainable level, without any coercion or “population control”.
 
Yes Sir, that is correct: the traders – some not all - will get hubris and try to corner their little part of the market. The regulators catch some of them, some times the risk manages stop them, and eventually the market itself will catch up with them and close out their position. The bad apples broker/dealer/advisors get on the SEC’s list, but in most cases and for a very large volume of trades over history there is no manipulation, just exchange transactions between buyer and seller, that facilitate the wheels of commerce and for wages to be earned by employees who have jobs. I hate white collar crime, fraud, and crooked securities dealers. The remainder of the securities business and the reps in the field are not all crooks. If so, then my father, two brothers, self, two sons, two nephews, and cousins are very bad Christians, Episcopal and Catholic parishioners.
 
To Skadi,

This will happen. However, Jesus told us that we will always have the poor.

Ask yourself: If I am 30 years old and living in India or Sub-Saharan Africa and I have seen my neighbors lose babies and young children due to a lack of medical care or adequate nutrition, why am I still having babies? Click on this hunger map:

cdn.wfp.org/hungermap/

Why are aid workers killed or injured?

aidworkersecurity.org/incidents/report/summary

It seems the United States and other countries are not smart enough to understand how to properly get food to people, but they’re learning, a bit late.

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/when-food-isnt-the-answer-to-hunger/

Peace,
Ed
 
Whit_Dupree said:
Yes Sir, that is correct: the traders – some not all - will get hubris and try to corner their little part of the market. The regulators catch some of them, some times the risk manages stop them, and eventually the market itself will catch up with them and close out their position. The bad apples broker/dealer/advisors get on the SEC’s list, but in most cases and for a very large volume of trades over history there is no manipulation, just exchange transactions between buyer and seller, that facilitate the wheels of commerce and for wages to be earned by employees who have jobs. I hate white collar crime, fraud, and crooked securities dealers. The remainder of the securities business and the reps in the field are not all crooks. If so, then my father, two brothers, self, two sons, two nephews, and cousins are very bad Christians, Episcopal and Catholic parishioners.
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Then please explain the 2008 global economic collapse. Fortunately, a “whistle blower” program is in place. So I politely ask: if you knew of fraud where you worked or your relatives did, what would you do?

Best,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
To Skadi,

This will happen. However, Jesus told us that we will always have the poor.

Ask yourself: If I am 30 years old and living in India or Sub-Saharan Africa and I have seen my neighbors lose babies and young children due to a lack of medical care or adequate nutrition, why am I still having babies? Click on this hunger map:

cdn.wfp.org/hungermap/

Why are aid workers killed or injured?

aidworkersecurity.org/incidents/report/summary

It seems the United States and other countries are not smart enough to understand how to properly get food to people, but they’re learning, a bit late.

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/when-food-isnt-the-answer-to-hunger/

Peace,
Ed
Click to expand...
You are very correct. The west seams to not understand the proper way to truly help these people. Most people who donate to charities and support these organizations don’t really understand the problems present or do so from a desire to feel like they are a good person, “Done my good deed for the week” kind of stuff. The truth is that just bringing food or medical aid to these people, while incredibly important and helpfull, dont solve the problem but only fight the effects. We dont just need to keep the people from starving, we need to help improve their agriculture so they can feed themselves, not just send doctors, but train local doctors too.

The undeveloped world (Especialy Africa) suffers from a myriad of problems that make this harder, and in some cases are caused by it themselves. In Africa, borders drawn by
European colonialists dont take into account the location of tribes or ethnic groups, and cause huge political problems. Similarly, most roads in rural Africa don’t run from one major city to another, but all towards one central port on the counties coast where goods were the nations resources were once shipped back to whatever nation ruled the region. these things need to be fixed.

Why are aid workers killed? political problems. In Somalia the local warlords take the aid sent for themselves and sell it to the population at exorbitant prices. Some local peoples also don’t take kindly to the proselytizing done by some aid groups.

While the poor will alwase exist, these is no reason so many people must live in poverty like they do now, and while to goal is unachievable, if you shoot for the stars and miss you can at least hit the moon.
 
Globally our national government tries to assist with many issues facing mankind, including poverty, but there is opposition. In the USA I see no reason for poverty, but we cannot seem to solve the problem. As you allow, we merely band aid the symptoms and not use smarts to correctly determine the root cause. I have a friend, a cradle Catholic, educated in all Catholic schools, who with others, does much good works operating a volunteer homeless shelter and ancillary services in our community. That is her purpose; she lives very simply. The agency serves folks who fall through the cracks of state welfare and charitable providers. I am sending her the article I posted as that philanthropist’s does seek to determine the root cause of mankind’s ills and has resources to make a difference when he finds that cause.

Fraud is evil. If one sees fraud, confront the people involved. If you cannot fire them yourself, and your boss will not, call the securities & bank regulators at state & federal levels. Call the AG’s fraud hotline. In old age I am a government auditor. I work with fraud auditors and investigators. If given the right circumstances, a Priest, a government official, a former audit supervisor will steal. Read about the fraud triangle, the Enron story, COSO, internal controls, and enterprise risk management. In securities trading the firms have continuous monitoring of compliance in place, but then when profits are high and de nova products are being invented that push the envelope, conflicts of interest arise. The Glass-Stegal Act that separated commercial banking and investment banking was dropped because US banks were dis-intermediating due to large foreign bank competition. US should have banks that can operate globally. Securities laws and their enforcement swing like a pendulum: over regulation and then lax regulation.

I got a kick out of JPM’s Jamie Diamond successfully maneuvering the liquidity crisis while riding an elephant through a china shop, only to have his traders bet the house and be wrong. He did not learn the lesson of hubris, apparently, either that or he was duped. The head of trading had to give up her job; she said her traders let her down. I don’t care if she had three layers of officials under her all of whom were supposed to watch the traders and their positions, it seems to me that she had the obligation to periodically go down into the trading room and look at the book herself!

Why the economic downturn if not for a lack of ethics on Wall Street? Same with the history of 1929-1939. Next up are the quants and the hedge funds. I suggest that the tipping point may – as you claim – be due to moral failure of a few, but a lot more is involved than that simple cause. I’d say that morality starts with your child: “look me in the eye and never tell a lie.” Sorry, I need to go to confession. Good night, Ladies, Good night, Gentlemen . . . .
 
The greatest problem looming on the horizon is the threat of massive depopulation due to drastically declining fertility rates. Many western nations are already below replacement level. This leads to huge problems with social security programs, economic growth, medical care, decline of families.

“What we’re seeing now in many countries is the drop in fertility is so fast, it’s literally without precedent in human history,” said Phil Longman, a demographer at the New America Foundation research group in Washington D.C.

Source
 
JimG said:
The greatest problem looming on the horizon is the threat of massive depopulation due to drastically declining fertility rates. Many western nations are already below replacement level. This leads to huge problems with social security programs, economic growth, medical care, decline of families.

“What we’re seeing now in many countries is the drop in fertility is so fast, it’s literally without precedent in human history,” said Phil Longman, a demographer at the New America Foundation research group in Washington D.C.

Source
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Because the problems of DEpopulation are related to socialist programs such as Social Security and other government hand outs, peoples position on that is more based on politics. The question Europe should be asking in my opinion is “should we have made this program in the first place”
 
No doubt many nations developed societies that became entirely too dependent on government entitlements. But that is almost beside the point. The problem would arise in any case in any society in the throes of depopulation.

In prior times, aging family members depended on younger family members, the young supporting the old, as of course parents supported dependent children. When government policies destroyed families, it was necessary to socialize that function, with government taking on the role of the extended family. But its the same thing. Whether it’s the young contributing tax money to pay for social support programs, or whether it’s the young supporting the elderly directly in a famly, it still depends on one generation supporting another.

But when one generation fails to even produce the next generation, problems arise. Few younger workers, fewer workers to support social programs, and aging population, unsupportable social programs.

And when, as in the case with the U.S. and many European nations, the government spends future income to support current programs, borrowing from the next generation, it is a problem when the next generation fails to show up.
 
JimG said:
Declining fertility rates in the western world show that they are having too few babies, as well as out of wedlock babies. The fertility rates are at or below replacement level, which means that population will decline. That depopulation, once started, is difficult to stop, and causes many economic problems due to adverse demographics.
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Always get good data before you make statements like that.

data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Always get good data before you make statements like that.

data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN

Peace,
Ed
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Thanks for the data link. As I scan through the numbers on the right hand side, I notice that nearly every European nation, along with the U.S. And Canada and many others, are at a below replacement level fertility rate.

It takes a total fertility rate of at least 2.1 to replace population in a developed nation, and up to a 3.4 rate in nations with a high infant mortality rate.

Nations which do not replace their current populations will find themselves at an economic disadvantage.

There’s a lot of little towns in Kansas that can vouch for that from their own experience. Population dies out or leaves, the town collapses. The same thing occurs with nations.
 
JimG said:
Thanks for the data link. As I scan through the numbers on the right hand side, I notice that nearly every European nation, along with the U.S. And Canada and many others, are at a below replacement level fertility rate.

It takes a total fertility rate of at least 2.1 to replace population in a developed nation, and up to a 3.4 rate in nations with a high infant mortality rate.

Nations which do not replace their current populations will find themselves at an economic disadvantage.

There’s a lot of little towns in Kansas that can vouch for that from their own experience. Population dies out or leaves, the town collapses. The same thing occurs with nations.
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A bit apocalyptic, aren’t you? No, this is being watched by very intelligent people who have a plan.

My parents lived through the last Great Depression, caused for for the same reason. Some people even moved out of the country to the Motherland or anywhere they could find work. One of my closest friends has her daughter living in the same farm house her mom grew up in.

Peace,
Ed
 
How about the effect of immigration into North America & Europe from countries with lower standard of living, does that not off-set loss of workers due to fertility rates below replacement levels?

At some point the drop in fertility rates vs. the increase in economic productivity peaks, and diminishing returns come into play. Health care costs per capital rise – due to unlimited demand, until , , , ?

How about the total of global population, it is still rising, correct? Will the planet Earth stabilize at some sustainable economic level or over or under populate? How about rising productivity per capita, nationally and globally? Food production word wide per capita and clean water etc. measurements, and sanitation and disease control, i.e., public health; economic growth . . . . so it becomes a broad topic that is associated with mere fertility rates.

Does or has Catholic church membership population affect(ed) these data?

I read once about an estimate of total number of potential souls in Heaven from the beginning of mankind – some starting point of population and accumulative growth over time. I wonder what factor for loss of souls going to purgatory or hell and whether that rate of accumulated depreciation has diminished with the spread of the Good News? Does the population of Heaven have a limit? – a ratio of diminishing returns applies to Heaven as to Earth?
 
From what I have read, global population will continue to rise until about 2040, even as fertility rates fall, after which it will begin to decline. Here is an interview with Steven Mosher, Underpopulation, the Real Problem.

(As for Heaven, there is no population limit.)
 
fertility rates that were below the level needed to ensure the long-term survival of the population

Not sure of the formula in here; needs to be unpacked; “survival” of a population seems inflammatory.

I am trying to think in terms of economic stability, or slowly increasing levels of population combined with per capita GDP growth rates that are sustainable over long periods with the business cycle at the global level flattened and extended. That is, to increase souls but to do so with an increase in quality of life and reduce the volatility of both variables. Hopefully, loss of all kinds

–due to national-territorial-civil-class-race-cultural-generaltional-economic conflicts –

can be dampened, thus increasing further the desired societal engineered objectives. And those objective would appear to be congruous with the Church’s objective of saving souls within the Church community and to do so using Catholic social teachings.
 
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