Portrayals of Catholics in Manga

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Ijiwaru_Sensei said:
Can either of you elaborate? Would my eventual posting of the image for discussion be offensive?
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Well, it might generate a heated discussion. Adding things to the crucifix, such as angel’s wings or snakes, constitutes deep disrespect for the sacrifice that was made on that cross to save our souls from sin. To a non-Christian, it’s just a cool-looking symbol. To us, it’s a reminder of the price that was paid for our salvation, and it’s very dear to us, and holy.
 
Ijiwaru_Sensei said:
Can either of you elaborate? Would my eventual posting of the image for discussion be offensive?
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I wouldn’t be offended if you posted this picture. Because I know that you don’t want to be offensive, you are just asking a question;) . It’s hard for me to explain, but I think that doing that to an image of our Lord and Savior is blasphemy, that is, unless the artist knows that what he or she is doing is wrong. But, no I wouldn’t be offended if you were to post this.

Schatzl
 
TheRealJuliane said:
Well, it might generate a heated discussion. Adding things to the crucifix, such as angel’s wings or snakes, constitutes deep disrespect for the sacrifice that was made on that cross to save our souls from sin. To a non-Christian, it’s just a cool-looking symbol. To us, it’s a reminder of the price that was paid for our salvation, and it’s very dear to us, and holy.
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Certainly we can add ornamentation to a crucifix in a spirit of piety and respect. We have always had bejeweled crucifixes and such, and that is a beautiful tradition. Of course though portraying Jesus as nailed to angel wings sounds very strange and inexplicable, unless it is meant to resemble the seraph St. Francis saw. If the angel wings were enveloping him or something like that rather than being what he is nailed to that might work, though even then it might take away from the sense of Jesus being forlorn and suffering to imagine an intimate angelic presence at the crucifixion. Or again it might be meant to resemble a seraph.

The snake thing sounds even stranger, unless the snake is somehow portrayed as being crushed by the feet of Jesus, in which case you could have an interesting reference to Genesis.
 
Hello again!

I did some research out of good 'ol curiosity and found some…interesting images.

On shows a man wearing a Roman collar (the black shirt with a white collar that priests wear)
chained to a cross and smiling, the man also has a cross on his forehead. While I realize that many Christians were crucified during the times of the Roman Empire, this is bordering on blasphemy, if it isn’t already.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Certainly we can add ornamentation to a crucifix in a spirit of piety and respect. We have always had bejeweled crucifixes and such, and that is a beautiful tradition. Of course though portraying Jesus as nailed to angel wings sounds very strange and inexplicable, unless it is meant to resemble the seraph St. Francis saw. If the angel wings were enveloping him or something like that rather than being what he is nailed to that might work, though even then it might take away from the sense of Jesus being forlorn and suffering to imagine an intimate angelic presence at the crucifixion. Or again it might be meant to resemble a seraph.

The snake thing sounds even stranger, unless the snake is somehow portrayed as being crushed by the feet of Jesus, in which case you could have an interesting reference to Genesis.
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Your “unlesses” are out of context here - there would be no Christian intent to either add ornamentation or add symbols from the Bible that would be meaningful to Christians. It’s just a way to be artistic, for Japanese manga artists. Maybe somewhat edgy. And for us, blasphemous.
 
Maltee said:
Would anyone care to explain this?

That description sounds pretty typical of manga. To me it seems to be based more on gross misunderstanding than on an evil desire to blaspheme Christianity. I could be completely wrong though.
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I was responding to the idea that Christianity hasn’t always been a mystery to the Japanese. During the early parts of the Edo Period 1603-1868, Christianity had quite a foothold in Japan until a certain daimyo, Ieyasu, decided to rid the country of this outside religion in 1614ish. A horrific persecution followed until only a small remnant of Christians remained.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
Well, it might generate a heated discussion. Adding things to the crucifix, such as angel’s wings or snakes, constitutes deep disrespect for the sacrifice that was made on that cross to save our souls from sin. To a non-Christian, it’s just a cool-looking symbol. To us, it’s a reminder of the price that was paid for our salvation, and it’s very dear to us, and holy.
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Okay, that makes sense. I was reading elsewhere that there is a wide variety of styles of processional crosses, but you are suggesting that there are some distinct boundaries for the designs?
 
Schatzl said:
I wouldn’t be offended if you posted this picture. Because I know that you don’t want to be offensive, you are just asking a question;) . It’s hard for me to explain, but I think that doing that to an image of our Lord and Savior is blasphemy, that is, unless the artist knows that what he or she is doing is wrong. But, no I wouldn’t be offended if you were to post this.

Schatzl
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👍 Cool beans.
 
Ijiwaru_Sensei said:
👍 Cool beans.
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I PERSONALLY wouldn’t be offended. But I’m not sure about anyone else hear. I don’t blame them either. When I did the research, I saw some…interesting things. In other words, still don’t post it.
 
Ijiwaru_Sensei said:
I was responding to the idea that Christianity hasn’t always been a mystery to the Japanese. During the early parts of the Edo Period 1603-1868, Christianity had quite a foothold in Japan until a certain daimyo, Ieyasu, decided to rid the country of this outside religion in 1614ish. A horrific persecution followed until only a small remnant of Christians remained.
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Some of whom heroically carried the torch in secret and at great risk to themselves.
 
Ijiwaru_Sensei said:
Okay, that makes sense. I was reading elsewhere that there is a wide variety of styles of processional crosses, but you are suggesting that there are some distinct boundaries for the designs?
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Yes, when it comes to the corpus, the Body of Christ, especially. It should be Jesus on the cross, as when he died on that cross for our sins. Not Jesus nailed to angel’s wings or with a snake anywhere nearby.
 
Ijiwaru_Sensei said:
I will eventually post a picture once my trial period is finished.
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The rules for how long a new member can post pictures was changed after a couple porn raids. Just keep posting, and you’ll be able to.

BTW, are you the same Ijiwaru Sensei from the old fighting fundamental forum?
 
Ijiwaru_Sensei said:
Okay, that makes sense. I was reading elsewhere that there is a wide variety of styles of processional crosses, but you are suggesting that there are some distinct boundaries for the designs?
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Well, as a Protestant you surely know what the cross looks like, and you know what the image of Our Crucified Lord looks like. Adding strange things like wings, snakes, dragons or whatever at random to the cross would be extremely disrespectful to this image of Christ.

There are surely a wide variety of styles of crosses, but that refers more to the decorative style, not so much the adding or subtracting of major elements. For example, Spanish crucifixes are known for being extremely realistic and graphic portrayals of the crucifixion. Christ’s body pours with blood and it can be quite gruesome to look at. It’s not the more “idealized” portrayal we usually find in America, where Christ shows barely any blood.

Sometimes there are examples of crucifixes that include other elements, but they aren’t just random inclusions to add some “cool” design to it. They have theological or scriptural significance. For example, look up the Giotto crucifix. It portrays Mary and St. John present on either side of Christ, just as they were present at Christ’s real crucifixion. This image of the crucifixion with Mary and St. John on the side has been around since the Renaissance. If you find any Christian crucifix with some addition, it usually is following some artistic and scriptural tradition.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Certainly we can add ornamentation to a crucifix in a spirit of piety and respect. We have always had bejeweled crucifixes and such, and that is a beautiful tradition. Of course though portraying Jesus as nailed to angel wings sounds very strange and inexplicable, unless it is meant to resemble the seraph St. Francis saw. If the angel wings were enveloping him or something like that rather than being what he is nailed to that might work, though even then it might take away from the sense of Jesus being forlorn and suffering to imagine an intimate angelic presence at the crucifixion. Or again it might be meant to resemble a seraph.

The snake thing sounds even stranger, unless the snake is somehow portrayed as being crushed by the feet of Jesus, in which case you could have an interesting reference to Genesis.
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Seraph did originally mean snake in Hebrew: שָׂרָף, but it’s hard to guess what the artist’s intentions were. From the description it doesn’t sit well with me though.

I’m really having trouble picturing this image. What was the seraph St. Francis saw?
 
Portrayal of Catholicism in manga and anime is generally saner than the Western caricature. It’s mostly because Asia never had the likes of Jack Chick in the industry.
 
Thanks, everyone. Your comments have been very informative and helpful.

I am nearing the end of the manga series and have run into something that has raised another question. In the last volume a drawn version of the Gabriel panel from the 15th century Ghent Altarpiece is used. The piece is made to look like a stained glass window, however, and adds a halo above Gabriel’s head. The discussion surrounding the piece in the manga informs the reader that Gabriel was the only female angel to have a position of authority in Heaven. I’ve found other discussions of the Ghent Altarpiece, but they always refer to Gabriel with masculine pronouns.

I’ve attempted to track down where this notion originated, but all I find are vague descriptions either in passive voice or phrases such as “some people believe,” all of which obscure who actually puts this idea forward.

Doesn’t the Catholic Church hold that angels are sexless beings?
Is there any segment within the Catholic Church that suggests that Gabriel is female?
Does anyone know where this idea originated?

Thanks.
 
Angels really have no gender. But I can’t see this as blasphemous. It’s probably innocent ignorance, or poetic license.
 
Ijiwaru_Sensei said:
Thanks, everyone. Your comments have been very informative and helpful.

I am nearing the end of the manga series and have run into something that has raised another question. In the last volume a drawn version of the Gabriel panel from the 15th century Ghent Altarpiece is used. The piece is made to look like a stained glass window, however, and adds a halo above Gabriel’s head. The discussion surrounding the piece in the manga informs the reader that Gabriel was the only female angel to have a position of authority in Heaven. I’ve found other discussions of the Ghent Altarpiece, but they always refer to Gabriel with masculine pronouns.

I’ve attempted to track down where this notion originated, but all I find are vague descriptions either in passive voice or phrases such as “some people believe,” all of which obscure who actually puts this idea forward.

Doesn’t the Catholic Church hold that angels are sexless beings?
Is there any segment within the Catholic Church that suggests that Gabriel is female?
Does anyone know where this idea originated?

Thanks.
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Angels are pure spirits, but they are always referred to with masculine pronouns in the Bible. Gabriel is never referred to as being female in the Bible. I have no idea where the idea from the manga originated, but it’s fashionable in modern art to portray angels as female, so maybe that’s why they thought he was a she. 🤷
 
Maltee said:
Would anyone care to explain this?

That description sounds pretty typical of manga. To me it seems to be based more on gross misunderstanding than on an evil desire to blaspheme Christianity. I could be completely wrong though.
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Misunderstanding is most probably the case with most (though there are a few manga I can think of which seem to push the boundaries). There’s an anime called ‘Kids on the Slope’ (based on a manga) which actually gives a surprisingly accurate depiction of Catholics! It was quite a breath of fresh air to say the least!
 
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