Posing nude for a professional photographer

[StJudeprayforme]

The “original stuff” is step one. Get the people to believe it’s OK and THEN get them to go to step two: the sinful stuff. That’s always been the way. That’s the method. I don’t believe there is morally neutral nude photography for a general audience. As I tried to point out, the average viewer takes such images at face value. No matter how many art critics call it art doesn’t make it so.

This is what it sounds like you are saying to me: “There is a possibility that this action may be sinful or lead to sinful actions, even though there is a significant possibility based on the history or art and moral theology within the Catholic world that it may be morally acceptable. Thus everyone should not view or produce it.”

That is not how Catholic moral theology works. As a prudential matter for an individual, your reasoning may lead them to decide that they should not view it. I accept their prudential judgement of their own capacities, but it is not a binding moral law upon the rest of mankind.

Your claim about the “average viewer” is anecdotal at best, and we have various other anecdotes here where other posters who were skeptical of nude art looked up the project I mentioned as an example of morally permissible nude art, and came to the opposite conclusion that you say most people would come to. This is purely anecdotal evidence, but it goes to demonstrate that your anecdotal claim isn’t necessarily true for everyone.

From the standpoint of the model: “I’m taking off my clothes and posing for this picture.” OK. Why? For a morally neutral reason? Usually, no. Aside from possible use in professional medical publications.

If the model does not intend for the photos to be erotic, as plenty of people here have provided evidence can be done with medieval and modern examples, then the model commits no sin.

 

[edwest2]

I would then suggest anyone who thinks I’m wrong talk to a priest. Seriously.

breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2013/07/16/Nudity-has-Consequences-for-Tennis-Star

Once again, I am not denying the beauty of the nude human body. It appears some here are looking for any excuse to present it. I suggest a very loud complaint to that tiny clique of so-called fashion designers in your country, such as:

Dear Renaldo,

The clothing you design is wonderful and appealing but that is not why I’m writing. Would you please not use models who have natural figures that have starved themselves so as to fit your picture of what the ideal figure is? It is harmful for young women to see themselves in your clothing but who cannot remain healthy while eating nothing to get to whatever body weight you would consider ideal. I believe it disrespects young women of natural beauty, and it causes grave harm in the minds of young women. Some of whom will develop eating disorders. I have read an account of one model who was called fat and later died due to complications related to anorexia.

Peace,
Ed

 

[thewanderer]

I would then suggest anyone who thinks I’m wrong talk to a priest. Seriously.

breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2013/07/16/Nudity-has-Consequences-for-Tennis-Star

Again, seeing as I think you are agreeing with me and others by what is necessarily implied in what you are saying I hardly think you are wrong, I just don’t understand why you keep acting as though we disagree. Unless it comes to the particular example given in this thread. But in principle we both agree that nude art is not inherently sinful even though it often can be and so one must be careful and extremely prudent when it comes to such.

Once again, I am not denying the beauty of the nude human body. It appears some here are looking for any excuse to present it.

Who are you talking about? I don’t see anybody here looking for any and every excuse to present the nude form. If you wish to claim that is what people are doing then please supply the quotes to back it up.

I suggest a very loud complaint to that tiny clique of so-called fashion designers in your country, such as:

Dear Renaldo,

The clothing you design is wonderful and appealing but that is not why I’m writing. Would you please not use models who have natural figures that have starved themselves so as to fit your picture of what the ideal figure is? It is harmful for young women to see themselves in your clothing but who cannot remain healthy while eating nothing to get to whatever body weight you would consider ideal. I believe it disrespects young women of natural beauty, and it causes grave harm in the minds of young women. Some of whom will develop eating disorders. I have read an account of one model who was called fat and later died due to complications related to anorexia.

Peace,
Ed

And doing so would be a great start, but its not sufficient. Like I said, I know those images are fake and unhealthy, I know they are not good role models, and to be quite frank, I haven’t had nearly as much exposure to them as most people have. And even still I am effected by it because I (as has the whole culture) been formed and shaped by this whether we like it or not. Knowing that they’re fake and wrong isn’t enough, removing them from sight isn’t enough, they’ve become too ingrained in our culture, they need to be actively fought against.

 

[edwest2]

Again, seeing as I think you are agreeing with me and others by what is necessarily implied in what you are saying I hardly think you are wrong, I just don’t understand why you keep acting as though we disagree. Unless it comes to the particular example given in this thread. But in principle we both agree that nude art is not inherently sinful even though it often can be and so one must be careful and extremely prudent when it comes to such.

Who are you talking about? I don’t see anybody here looking for any and every excuse to present the nude form. If you wish to claim that is what people are doing then please supply the quotes to back it up.

And doing so would be a great start, but its not sufficient. Like I said, I know those images are fake and unhealthy, I know they are not good role models, and to be quite frank, I haven’t had nearly as much exposure to them as most people have. And even still I am effected by it because I (as has the whole culture) been formed and shaped by this whether we like it or not. Knowing that they’re fake and wrong isn’t enough, removing them from sight isn’t enough, they’ve become too ingrained in our culture, they need to be actively fought against.

Fought how?

Ed

 

[thewanderer]

Fought how?

Ed

By making it a part of the general cultures way of thinking that natural real women’s bodies are actually themselves good and beautiful. That there is no need for women to starve and surgically alter themselves because they already are beautiiful. This particular project is doing that by getting women to publicly speak out together in celebration of the beauty of women’s bodies just as they are. It not only is missing pictures of unrealistic expectations but gives us new images of actual and realistic expectations and helps us to recondition our thinking to recognize such images as worthy of celebration. That the beauty of women is more than the idealized and sexualized versions you find in hollywood and the media, it is much deeper and doesn’t depend on being a sexual object that has starved itself for the sake of becoming sexually appealing.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Nudity for artistic purposes just becomes artsy pornography. Just like artistic photos of food become food porn.

We all know what a nude human body looks like, what need is there to repeatedly display it for the public?

 

[thewanderer]

Nudity for artistic purposes just becomes artsy pornography. Just like artistic photos of food become food porn.

We all know what a nude human body looks like, what need is there to repeatedly display it for the public?

Do you really mean this as a universal statement? If so, are you aware that this means you believe the paintings in the Sistine Chapel are porn?

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Do you really mean this as a universal statement? If so, are you aware that this means you believe the paintings in the Sistine Chapel are porn?

Yes as a universal statement.

Paintings are different. They are lierally artwork drawn by an artist. This is also the artists take on things as well.

A picture is just an image of a person captured. I would say the picture is inappropriate everytime.

 

[thewanderer]

Yes as a universal statement.

Paintings are different. They are lierally artwork drawn by an artist. This is also the artists take on things as well.

A picture is just an image of a person captured. I would say the picture is inappropriate everytime.

Ah, that is a distinction you did not make earlier. Then, my next question, is do you really believe nude pictures in medical textbooks are porn? Or would you grant them as an exception, and so admit the statement is not universal?

 

[TheHolyGhost]

Ah, that is a distinction you did not make earlier. Then, my next question, is do you really believe nude pictures in medical textbooks are porn? Or would you grant them as an exception, and so admit the statement is not universal?

I dont think in a medical sense, no, but that is still subjective.

I remember in biology we saw a clip of a real woman giving birth. To most in the room it was kind of gross, but one guy I recall had a “pregnant fetish” so for him it was a free show.

 

[thewanderer]

I dont think in a medical sense, no, but that is still subjective.

I remember in biology we saw a clip of a real woman giving birth. To most in the room it was kind of gross, but one guy I recall had a “pregnant fetish” so for him it was a free show.

In other words, it is not porn in itself, but some people abuse it that way. In other words you retract your statement that nude photographs are universally porn.

 

[TheHolyGhost]

In other words, it is not porn in itself, but some people abuse it that way. In other words you retract your statement that nude photographs are universally porn.

If the nudity incites lust in a person, then it is porn everytime.

In a medical context it is.necessary for education. For someone who isnt in the medical field but looks at medical nudity for a thrill, it is porn.

The same cant be said for “artistic nudity.” It isnt a necessity.

 

[thewanderer]

If the nudity incites lust in a person, then it is porn everytime.

In a medical context it is.necessary for education. For someone who isnt in the medical field but looks at medical nudity for a thrill, it is porn.

The same cant be said for “artistic nudity.” It isnt a necessity.

Then you are claiming that the paintings in the Sistine Chapel are porn and sinful. There is no other possible conclusion from the above statements you have made.

 

[StJudeprayforme]

Yes as a universal statement.

Paintings are different. They are lierally artwork drawn by an artist. This is also the artists take on things as well.

A picture is just an image of a person captured. I would say the picture is inappropriate everytime.

Did you know that porn existed before the photograph? Do you know how it was published? Paintings, engravings, and drawings. Just because the media isn’t an exact replica, doesn’t mean it cannot be pornographic. There is nothing intrinsic about the photograph that makes non-erotic nudity in it porn, while non-erotic nudity in a painting isn’t.

 

[StJudeprayforme]

I would then suggest anyone who thinks I’m wrong talk to a priest. Seriously.

breitbart.com/Breitbart-Sports/2013/07/16/Nudity-has-Consequences-for-Tennis-Star

If you looked at the original story about the athlete, where it shows the picture in question, you would see why there was an issue. Nothing showing, but it is certainly suggestive. You also have the potential for scandal, even if the photos themselves were not sinful (I’ll leave that judgement to her confessor…) you have the issue of them being suggestive and in a very public forum, while she was a representative of a Catholic children’s group. So, yes, all this considered, I don’t think that she should have done it.

Compare the images and situations to the images and situations of the “A Beautiful Body Project” and other art like it. Vastly different. The circumstances and intent are extremely important.

 

[joshvanrad]

If the nudity incites lust in a person, then it is porn everytime.

I disagree. There comes a point where a person’s lust is their own. That is a sin they must confront on their own. It would be similar to a person who over-indulges in alcohol- it would be best for them to stay away from alcohol. While there is nothing inherently evil about alcohol, some people cannot deal with what alcohol does to them. The same can be applied to nudity.

 

[edwest2]

If you looked at the original story about the athlete, where it shows the picture in question, you would see why there was an issue. Nothing showing, but it is certainly suggestive. You also have the potential for scandal, even if the photos themselves were not sinful (I’ll leave that judgement to her confessor…) you have the issue of them being suggestive and in a very public forum, while she was a representative of a Catholic children’s group. So, yes, all this considered, I don’t think that she should have done it.

Compare the images and situations to the images and situations of the “A Beautiful Body Project” and other art like it. Vastly different. The circumstances and intent are extremely important.

A relative of mine who knows what I do for a living asked if her artwork would be stolen if she put it on the internet. My reply was that it would be. Circumstances and intent? For some, that is discarded on the internet. It reminds me of a legal case involving someone taking one of our covers and reusing it for a different purpose. Of course, he erased the title on the cover.

Peace,
Ed

 

[thewanderer]

A relative of mine who knows what I do for a living asked if her artwork would be stolen if she put it on the internet. My reply was that it would be. Circumstances and intent? For some, that is discarded on the internet. It reminds me of a legal case involving someone taking one of our covers and reusing it for a different purpose. Of course, he erased the title on the cover.

Peace,
Ed

Yes, and that sin lies entirely on the person stealing the pictures and using them for their own purposes. I guarantee there are people who get off on the pics in medical textbooks and the paintings in the Sistine Chapel. Does that mean we should stop medical textbooks from being printed? Paint over the Sistine Chapel? Of course not. Similarly the fact that some people are going to abuse non-erotic pictures that serve a very real healing purpose does not mean that said pictures should not exist.

 

[StJudeprayforme]

A relative of mine who knows what I do for a living asked if her artwork would be stolen if she put it on the internet. My reply was that it would be. Circumstances and intent? For some, that is discarded on the internet. It reminds me of a legal case involving someone taking one of our covers and reusing it for a different purpose. Of course, he erased the title on the cover.

Considering that most high school students are better versed in copyright law these days than some attorneys who went to law school 20 years ago, if her art is stolen the blame would lie with the person violating the copyright. If they did not know that it was wrong, then it would only be a material sin instead of a formal sin. So yes, circumstances and intent matter in all cases to some degree.

 

[Midwest88]

I understand philosophy fairly well. I got my degree in it at a top ten philosophy department and was fairly active in the department, and unless you are a professor or advanced grad student, odds are that I am more credentialed and have more CV lines involving philosophical matters. You shouldn’t make statements claiming that someone is uneducated simply because they have a different view than you.
.

This “I have a degree in [insert subject].” I do too, and I have met many a philosophy majors that I was not impressed with.

Anyways, it depends on what branches you studied, and what the professor taught in the given course during that time of completing your philosophy degree and what your interests were.