Position on Systematic Theology?

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I was curious what the position of the various EC’s here position on sytematic theology is.

Do you…?
  1. Subscribe to the popular notion put forth by a number of Concilliar press writers that “Orthodox” (Easterners) don’t have a systematic theogy! (The belief is that the Church has a patchwork of different genres of writings from creeds, apologies, mystical writings etc. that it uses)
  2. You hold a classical writer or group of writers like St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation, St. John Of Damscus, St. Augustine to be your systematic theologian or group of theologians.
  3. subscribe to Thomism, or other medieval theologian?
  4. or do you have a modern Catholic Systemtic theologian or school of theology?
 
Dear brother Addai,

I’ve actually never given this much thought and just now went online to see what “Systematic theology” means.

From what I gleaned from an admittedly very cursory study of the matter online,

(1) Systematic theology is a process of trying to coherently and rationally understand theology from the sources.

(2) To Protestants, the only source of systematic theology is the Bible.

(3) To Catholics and Oriental Orthodox, we use ALL of Sacred Tradition, including the Bible, the early Fathers, and the living Church.

(4) I cannot speak for the Eastern Tradition.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
To say that the Bible is the only source for Protestants for doing systematic theology is simply false, as the most cursory reading of many, many examples of Protestant theology will reveal.
 
Dear brother Ryan,
To say that the Bible is the only source for Protestants for doing systematic theology is simply false, as the most cursory reading of many, many examples of Protestant theology will reveal.
What other source do Protestants claim for their theology? I am aware that some Protestant groups claim a distinction between “solo Scriptura” and “sola scriptura,” but it seems to be a mere semantic distinction, and not a real one.

Since you’re here, may I ask what the Eastern Tradition says about “systematic theology?” I’ve read of Easterns (mostly EO) deride such a principle (e.g., it’s too rationalistic. etc.).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I was curious what the position of the various EC’s here position on sytematic theology is.

Do you…?
  1. Subscribe to the popular notion put forth by a number of Concilliar press writers that “Orthodox” (Easterners) don’t have a systematic theogy! (The belief is that the Church has a patchwork of different genres of writings from creeds, apologies, mystical writings etc. that it uses)
  2. You hold a classical writer or group of writers like St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation, St. John Of Damscus, St. Augustine to be your systematic theologian or group of theologians.
  3. subscribe to Thomism, or other medieval theologian?
  4. or do you have a modern Catholic Systemtic theologian or school of theology?
I don’t know who said that, but there is an Orthodox theological book called “Orthodox Systematic Theology” written by Fr. Michael Pomazansky (memory eternal!). It’s actually used as a textbook at some Orthodox seminaries. 😉

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Dear brother Andrew,
I don’t know who said that, but there is an Orthodox theological book called “Orthodox Systematic Theology” written by Fr. Michael Pomazansky (memory eternal!). It’s actually used as a textbook at some Orthodox seminaries. 😉
Would you say that Fr. Pomazansky represents a typical EO understanding of systematic theology? Would it be correct to say that there is no sure standard in the Eastern Orthodox Church on the matter, and the opinions can range from opposition to acceptance?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Andrew,

Would you say that Fr. Pomazansky represents a typical EO understanding of systematic theology? Would it be correct to say that there is no sure standard in the Eastern Orthodox Church on the matter, and the opinions can range from opposition to acceptance?

Blessings,
Marduk
I haven’t read too much on the more academic level of theology as I would like, so I cannot fully answer your question. I do know that Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville, NY (a very well-known and well-esteemed ROCOR seminary) uses it as a textbook, as do a few others.

Blessed Seraphim of Platina was once asked what his favorite icon of the Theotokos was. He replied “Don’t you get it? It’s the whole thing!” In Orthodoxy, the theology is understood as what came from the Scriptures and the Fathers, both of which are taken as being highly authoritative, as are the Ecumenical Councils and lesser synods and councils. Generally, I’ve noticed many people giving excellent insights, but are simply reiterating older things and that’s fine. Orthodox have never seen any need to develop and define a lot of things. That could be due to long periods of persecution to the point that just trying to maintain what has been given to them. That’s not a knock against Rome, it’s just not our way of operating. You will see “theologians” bicker over silly things in any group, and Orthodoxy is no exception in that regard.

However, that doesn’t mean there aren’t standards. There are, but they are not as neatly defined as the RCC has done. We’ve just never been too organized in regards to having a universal catechism or some such thing, and just about every Orthodox I’ve spoken with whether lay, clergy or monastic seems okay with that. 🙂 For example, certain churches or bishops in certain churches have put out catechisms over the years that no one has really disputed. St. Filaret of Moscow’s catechism comes to mind, as does “These Truths We Hold” produced by a monk from St. Tikhon’s monastery in PA. Many parishes use that particular book in catechumen instruction.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Thank you for the response, brother Andrew. You are definitely an EO apologist in my book.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Ryan,

What other source do Protestants claim for their theology? I am aware that some Protestant groups claim a distinction between “solo Scriptura” and “sola scriptura,” but it seems to be a mere semantic distinction, and not a real one.

Since you’re here, may I ask what the Eastern Tradition says about “systematic theology?” I’ve read of Easterns (mostly EO) deride such a principle (e.g., it’s too rationalistic. etc.).

Blessings,
Marduk
I’m sure that there are Protestants who would deny using sources other than Holy Scripture for producing a theology that is systematic; however, I’m skeptical as to how successful one could be in writing a truly systematic theology that draws only on Scripture, though I would not go so far as to say that it cannot be done. As to other sources that Protestants use, they are numerous. Many Protestants draw on philosophy. Some Protestants draw on the Seven Ecumenical Councils. Some utilize various Church Fathers (for Protestants of the Lutheran and Reformed varieties, St. Augustine comes to mind immediately). One of my own professors of theology, Geoffrey Wainwright, who is British Methodist, wrote a systematic theology entitled Doxology, which is based on liturgy. Other Protestant theologians utilize liturgical texts in their theological writings. Also, some Protestant theologians have utilized the social sciences in their theological writings. Protestant theologians also draw on the ancient creeds of the Church, as well as various confessions from the era of the Reformation. These are just several sources that quickly come to mind. I’m sure other examples could be given.

As to the question about Eastern approaches to systematic theology, I would say they vary. Clearly, one can find Eastern Christians who have no objection to systematic approaches. One can also find Eastern Christians who are skeptical, or perhaps even hostile, in their attitudes towards systematic approaches to theology. As to why that is the case, I suspect that it is due largely to two reasons. First, I think it is because the theological writings of the Church Fathers are held in such high esteem, and these writings tend to be more pastoral or occasional, as opposed to being systematic. Second, I think it has to do with negative attitudes toward post-patristic Western theology, which often is systematic (keep in mind that the Eastern Orthodox often had to focus more on survival under either Islam or communism and that such circumstances lend themselves more to pastoral writings than to systematic theology).

As an Eastern Christian who is a bit of an amateur theologian, my own theological writings tend to draw on a combination of Holy Scripture, the teachings of the Fathers (particularly their Trinitarian, Christological, and soteriological teachings), the Creeds, the liturgical texts of the Church, and writings of modern Orthodox or Catholic theologians.
 
I do not think the east on the whole as an issue with systematic theology. At the very least I personally don’t (and really that is all I can speak for 🤷 ). I enjoy Augustine,Thomas, John of Damascus, Gregory Palamas (who I guess is not strictly systematic…), modern theologians like Rahner, V.Lossky, Meyendroff.

I am not really one for schools of thought. I generally find myself too limited if I let myself be forced into a box like that, maybe that is a very unsystematic way of looking at theology though ;).
 
Dear brother Ryan,

What other source do Protestants claim for their theology? I am aware that some Protestant groups claim a distinction between “solo Scriptura” and “sola scriptura,” but it seems to be a mere semantic distinction, and not a real one.

Since you’re here, may I ask what the Eastern Tradition says about “systematic theology?” I’ve read of Easterns (mostly EO) deride such a principle (e.g., it’s too rationalistic. etc.).

Blessings,
Marduk
Lutherans have a systematic theology. It is laid out in a handy dandy book called “The Lutheran Confessions”. The Lutheran Reformation, while claiming the Bible as the ultimate and final word on theological matters did not simply throw away the 1000+ years of tradition. If you read the earliest Lutheran fathers, they do quote the Church Fathers, as well as pointing to the praxis that was received from them. Again though, the Bible was the end all of the discussion.

I am well aware of the understandings of many others that Lutherans (who are more-or-less clumped together with all Protestants, or considered the worst because we are the “first” Protestants) threw out Holy Tradition. I am not here to argue or debate that, for both sides are convicted in their beliefs on this mater. I am simply pointing out that the idea of “Sola Scriptura” has changed and is varied between different groups, and that Lutherans do not simply chuck out everything before them.
 
I personally am like Formosus. I don’t really follow any one system of theology. I prefer to read the sources whenever I can. Lately I’ve been reading more Patristics and Greek and Russian Fathers than anything else, although I am a very big fan of Kyr Joseph Raya and delight in reading his books over and over.

Orthodoxy, much like Catholicism, doesn’t actually have one system or approach to theology. There are those theologians within Orthodoxy who are very systematic, St. John of Damascus (considered by many to be the first systematic theologian), St. Gregory Palamas, and Dumitru Stanilou to name but a few. Personally I would even consider St. Theophan the Recluse to be quite systematic. There are also those Orthodox theologians whose approach is much like that of the Early Fathers, e.g. Schmemann, Meyendorff, Zizioulas and the like. I’ve heard it said that these theologians were inspired by the Roman Catholic “Ressoucement” movement which claims such luminaries as Henri de Lubac, Jean Danielou, Hans Urs von Balthasar, Jean Corbon, etc.

When it comes down to it, however, we must all recognize, as all of the great theologian saints did, that every school of theological thought has its strengths and weaknesses because all are attempting to express in finite human language an infinite Reality, an infinite Being, an infinite Mystery. My favorite example of a scholarly and saintly theologian is St. Thomas Aquinas, who, upon experiencing a vision of the Almighty, ceased work on his great Summa Theologiae never to complete it and said, “All I have written is so much straw.” Actions speak louder than words, and I believe that this one action on Aquinas’ part spoke more than his volumes of brilliant theological expositions. (BTW, I’m not much of a fan of Aquinas’ writings. They are too dry for me. But I do recognize and acknowledge his genius, as many Orthodox scholars and hierarchs have).
 
I don’t know who said that, but there is an Orthodox theological book called “Orthodox Systematic Theology” written by Fr. Michael Pomazansky (memory eternal!). It’s actually used as a textbook at some Orthodox seminaries. 😉

In Christ,
Andrew
I’ve seen the book, although I thought the title was “Orthodox Dogmatic Theology”, but I do see it listed officially as being an official Systematic theology book for the EO. Cool.
🙂

I ran a cross a quote from an EO blog that I think describes the reason for some of the confusion

“…In any case, the Orthodox rejection of “systematic theology” is not a rejection of thinking or of being rational. This is a very common stereotype that critics fall into. Rather it is a rejection of a certain view of the world with the world as a conflagration of opposing powers and where persons are a subset of some wider metaphysical set…”

energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/hes-got-issues/

(I think some writers I read previously equated Systematic theology with Scholasticism etc. rather than seeing it as looking at the faith in a a more abstract theoretical way).
 
This is a better quote from the same source.

"And of course we have the usual claim that the Orthodox have no systematic theology but are rather contemplative and “mystical.” Well this depends on what we mean by “systematic theology.” If we mean a definite theological model, with attending reasons given for points in the over all constellation of doctrines, then the Orthodox certainly do have a systematic theology. "
 
I was curious what the position of the various EC’s here position on sytematic theology is.

Do you…?
  1. Subscribe to the popular notion put forth by a number of Concilliar press writers that “Orthodox” (Easterners) don’t have a systematic theogy! (The belief is that the Church has a patchwork of different genres of writings from creeds, apologies, mystical writings etc. that it uses)
No, I don’t. There is a deep consistency in Eastern thought.

A more accurate presentation of the anti-systematization polemicists is that our theology is rooted in prayer and love, and is not a merely intellectual “science” divorced from spirituality as Scholasticism is perceived (incorrectly, I think) to be. The objection is not to the unity of the origins of theology but rather to the method of presentation. As Fr. Stephen Freeman has pointed, you don’t write systematic treatises when you are standing at the foot of the Cross. You don’t write syllogisms when you are being martyred.

I disagree with them, because (a) Scholasticism was not divorced from prayer or spirituality, or from the Evagrian principle (“he who prays is a theologian, and the theologian is one who prays”), and (b) because organizing one’s thought is a good and useful thing, and so is using the faculties of a whole man (including reason), not just the “eye of the heart”. One should have his feet firmly planted on earth even while his head is in the clouds.
  1. You hold a classical writer or group of writers like St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation, St. John Of Damscus, St. Augustine to be your systematic theologian or group of theologians.
Orthodoxy believes in the unanimity of sanctity. All the saints taught the same Orthodox Faith, and none of them really contradict each other. So it makes no sense to hold “a classical writer or group of writers” to be our “systematic theologian”; our “group of writers” is all of them.

When a theologian does diverge from the consensus of sanctity, if he is regarded as having been pious he will be called “Blessed” rather than “Saint”. So Augustine in the East is called “Blessed Augustine” rather than “Saint Augustine” (note: Blessed Seraphim (Rose) of Platina is called “Blessed” for a different reason, namely that he has not been glorified by a synod and not venerated during services, but he nonetheless has a popular cult). I’m fine calling him “St. Augustine” because I don’t believe that the consensus of sanctity applies to every detail of theology (I would strongly disagree with the teachings of the Fathers on seven-day creationism as outlined by Blessed Seraphim of Platina in his book Genesis, Creation, and Early Man, for example, as I am a scientist and therefore I accept the scientific method; I especially take issue with St. Gregory of Nyssa’s angelism in the name of the theology of the body). I think Orthodoxy in practice accepts the fact that saints will disagree with each other on details, especially since some of them were openly at odds with each other during their lifetimes (St. Nil Sorsky and St. Joseph of Volokolamsk, for example). The Holy Spirit illumines the saints in a revelation that unfolds and develops through history; the writings of the saints aren’t word-for-word dictation from God. Neither is Holy Scripture, in the Catholic and Orthodox understanding.
  1. subscribe to Thomism, or other medieval theologian?
  1. or do you have a modern Catholic Systemtic theologian or school of theology?
Thomas himself was not a systematic thinker. As a Dominican pointed out to me once, he didn’t simple draw out the consequences of a set of principles or of the thought of Aristotle, but drew from dozens of place to express truth wherever he found it. Which is what I try to do. I see lots of value in Thomas, marred by the bad physics underlying Aristotle’s metaphysics and which leaves Thomism badly in need of correction. I have a particular fondness for von Balthasar, for Wojtyla and Ratzinger, for Palamas and Cabasilas and St. Symeon the New Theologian and of St. Photios the Great, and of a number of modern Orthodox theologians (Florensky, Bulgakov, Lossky, Ouspensky, Staniloae, Zernov, Arseniev, St. Ignaty of Chernimore, Christos Yannaras, etc.). I like a number of old Roman Catholic systematic theologians - Ott and Tanquerey - and there are a number of Orthodox theologians that organize their work in a systematic manner, usually organized after the order of the Divine Liturgy - the De Fide Orthodoxa of St. John Damascene, the Catechism of Nicolaos Boulgaris (who was in communion with Rome, being an 18th-century Venetian), the Dogmatic Theology (not “Systematic”, in the title at any rate) of Pomozansky, the Orthodox Apologetic Theology of Andre’ev, and my favorite work of all time, the Systematic Theology of Dumitru Staniloae, which the English translators re-named “The Experience of God” in order to avoid looking systematic. Apostolos Makrakis’ Catechism is also systematic, but heterodox.
 
Thanks Cecilianus, you’ve give me a lot to think about…

"and there are a number of Orthodox theologians that organize their work in a systematic manner…"

Well after thinking about this for myself I seem to be mentally categorizing such people and works like

amazon.com/Orthodox-Way-Kallistos-Ware/dp/0913836583

amazon.com/Being-Communion-Personhood-Contemporary-Theologians/dp/0881410292/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307942729&sr=1-1

along those lines. What do you think?
I haven’t read The Orthodox Way. I wouldn’t have described Metropolitan Zizioulas’ work as a “systematic theology” because it tackles one problem or one issue, whereas I usually think of “systematic theology” as the organization of all issues in theology according to a rational plan.
 
This is a very informative thread for me.

Thank you.

In Christ,
Greg
 
I haven’t read The Orthodox Way. I wouldn’t have described Metropolitan Zizioulas’ work as a “systematic theology” because it tackles one problem or one issue, whereas I usually think of “systematic theology” as the organization of all issues in theology according to a rational plan.
It’s been a few years since I read Zizioulas book but it sort of does what you suggest at least indirectly. While it does try to focus on one area or issue, it ends up being one of those “big ideas” that changes the way you look at Christianity in general and all kinds of various doctrines, as far as a “paradigm shift” goes.

Here’s an example of that from if your willing to read a long testimony (the book doesn’t get mentioned until your half way in at the “One legged Evangelist learns to read” section)

orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_carltonfirstbaptist.aspx
 
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