Positive Proof The Catholic Church Is The Only True Church

[joshua_b]

In cases where the Church cannot reach people or fails in its duties then God himself delivers the deposit of faith to those predestined to be conformed to His image.

Can you qualify this with Scriptural evidence, and corroborate said Scripture with historical evidence that this is a belief that was held and taught by the first century Christians, and has been taught as doctrine consistently for the last 2000 years?

 

[ron77nyc]

Can you qualify this with Scriptural evidence, and corroborate said Scripture with historical evidence that this is a belief that was held and taught by the first century Christians, and has been taught as doctrine consistently for the last 2000 years?

The first Christians, the Christians who were living at the time of the crucifixion did not have most of the traditions we have today or the bible. If you believed in the resurrection of Jesus, that alone separated you from the rest of the world. That belief alone qualified you to be persecuted and thrown to the lions. They were the Church. Those who would not deny their loyalty to Jesus. Nothing else was important until later.

When leadership fails God takes over like he did in Ezechiel 34.

4 You did not strengthen the weak nor heal the sick nor bind up the injured. You did not bring back the strayed nor seek the lost, but you lorded it over them harshly and brutally.
5 So they were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and became food for all the wild beasts. My sheep were scattered
11 For thus says the Lord GOD: I myself will look after and tend my sheep.

One example of historical evidence would be the African American slaves. The Catholic Church through no fault of its own could not reach them. They heard the gospel and believed in Jesus through other Christian Churches.

 

[joshua_b]

The first Christians, the Christians who were living at the time of the crucifixion did not have most of the traditions we have today or the bible. If you believed in the resurrection of Jesus, that alone separated you from the rest of the world. That belief alone qualified you to be persecuted and thrown to the lions. They were the Church. Those who would not deny their loyalty to Jesus. Nothing else was important until later.

How much later? At what point did something other than a mere belief in Jesus resurrection become important ? What was this something? Who declared it? Did it cause scandal or dissent in the Christian community? With whom? Again, please cite your sources.

When leadership fails God takes over like he did in Ezechiel 34.

4 You did not strengthen the weak nor heal the sick nor bind up the injured. You did not bring back the strayed nor seek the lost, but you lorded it over them harshly and brutally.
5 So they were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and became food for all the wild beasts. My sheep were scattered
11 For thus says the Lord GOD: I myself will look after and tend my sheep.

One example of historical evidence would be the African American slaves. The Catholic Church through no fault of its own could not reach them. They heard the gospel and believed in Jesus through other Christian Churches.

I’m not really sure what you’re getting at here…if you are saying that God can and does operate outside of what we would consider “normative means”, then I (and the official position of the Catholic Church) agree with you.God is not bound by His own rules, and can operate outside of the confines of them at His discretion.

 

[ron77nyc]

I’m not really sure what you’re getting at here…if you are saying that God can and does operate outside of what we would consider “normative means”, then I (and the official position of the Catholic Church) agree with you.God is not bound by His own rules, and can operate outside of the confines of them at His discretion.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying.

They were the Church. Those who would not deny their loyalty to Jesus. Nothing else was important until later.

How much later? At what point did something other than a mere belief in Jesus resurrection become important ? What was this something? Who declared it? Did it cause scandal or dissent in the Christian community? With whom? Again, please cite your sources.
I would have to do a lot of research to answer all those questions that you’re already prepared to answer. My point here is that belief in the resurrection of Jesus is what makes you a Christian. That is the message of the gospel given by the apostles.

 

[joshua_b]

Yes, that’s what I’m saying.
I agree with you fully then. No argument to be had there.

I would have to do a lot of research to answer all those questions that you’re already prepared to answer. My point here is that belief in the resurrection of Jesus is what makes you a Christian. That is the message of the gospel given by the apostles.

Your response is fair, and displays a humility that is both virtuous and unnecessary. I am not a professional apologist, and definitely not as well versed in Scripture as even an average person. I have however, found a few things in trying to obtain answers to my own questions and doubts. what makes you a Christian according to Apostolic belief and teaching is membership in the Church, of which there was only one at the time. The way people became members of the Church was through valid baptism. If you know of any resources that show a consistent belief contrary to this, please share.

 

[Shai22]

To Chester

I’m not a protestant

The bible is the word of God, but that doesn’t mean all the words are meant for us.

Every single word [Truth] in the bible is good enough for ALL people.
What GOD gives to HIS prophets, HE gave to HIS people. Abundant living, as long as they lived in complete obedience.

GOD teaches us equally, loves us equally, punishes us equally, and blesses us equally. The prophets are children of GOD, just as I am and anyone else, who lives in complete obedience.

GOD is not partial to one side or the other. The responsibilities may be different, but that is the extent of differences.

Jesus was blessed when HE died and was made KING for his faithfulness and loyalty. Abraham was blessed through faith and loyalty and was made a Father of many nations. The responsibilities of both are very different but the blessings are equal.

To say that every word is not for all of us, is saying that GOD is playing favorites, and GOD is not partial. The people in biblical time that lived in complete obedience as well as the people of modern day that live in complete obedience, are first and foremost a child of GOD, they are prophets and KINGS second.

What GOD gives to one child he gives to us all.

So GOD commands HIS people to be determined and confident so they can remain faithful to the end and receive their blessings.

 

[Contarini]

Chesterson, I’d say that all churches fail the original Christianity at some point. But the worst off is the RCC. A cold imperial hierarchy,

Yes, there are elements of that. But to characterize Catholicism as a whole this way is brutally unfair. When I hear Pope Benedict speak, I don’t hear a “cold imperial hierarchy.” I hear one of the most gifted and devout pastors with which the Church of our times is blessed. I hear a man with a shepherd’s heart. You are looking at Catholicism through a thick veil of prejudice.

alien doctrines related to the Papacy and Mary, among others.

Alien to what? Neither the See of Peter nor the Blessed Mother of God is alien to historic Christianity. Are some of the Roman teachings on this point questionable? Sure. But not enough to warrant your sweeping claim.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

When did I say kill? I have never killed a man.

It’s called a “reductio ad absurdum.” You seemed to defend using violence by saying that it was “effective.” My point is that killing people is a lot more effective (if you want to shut them up) than punching them. Obviously you think that would be wrong. So why not also question whether punching people is the answer?

Welcome to my life. Last time I explained that to a friend, he punched me, you think I am the barbarian? You try going to a school where if you can read above the 6th grade level your a weirdo.

I never said you were the only one! As a snooty ex-homeschooler, I tend to assume that public schools are full of barbarians, and it must be really tough to survive in a place like that. I apologize for reacting the way I did–I was up all night grading (final grades for the semester were due this morning) and was short on sleep and thus short of temper. I don’t beat people up with my fists, but I do beat them up verbally, and I’m sorry for doing that to you.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[ChristianKnight]

It’s called a “reductio ad absurdum.” You seemed to defend using violence by saying that it was “effective.” My point is that killing people is a lot more effective (if you want to shut them up) than punching them. Obviously you think that would be wrong. So why not also question whether punching people is the answer?

I never said you were the only one! As a snooty ex-homeschooler, I tend to assume that public schools are full of barbarians, and it must be really tough to survive in a place like that. I apologize for reacting the way I did–I was up all night grading (final grades for the semester were due this morning) and was short on sleep and thus short of temper. I don’t beat people up with my fists, but I do beat them up verbally, and I’m sorry for doing that to you.

In Christ,

Edwin

Cause a black eye will heal. A murder will not.

Do not apologize. Please don’t, no one needs to apologize.

 

[Contarini]

Cause a black eye will heal. A murder will not.

So effectiveness isn’t the first criterion we should be looking at, is it?

Edwin

 

[ChristianKnight]

So effectiveness isn’t the first criterion we should be looking at, is it?

Edwin

You have to balance effective, with livable.

 

[Shai22]

For Micheal

Firstly, the Apostle’s Creed doesn’t deny Jesus is God.
(I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord}

This is stating that Christ is the SON of GOD, not GOD
Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah,
the Son of the Living GOD.“
John 3:16-17 For GOD loved this world so much that HE gave his only begotten
Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
Mark 1:11 “You are my own dear Son. I am pleased with you.

Jesus emanated his Father, in all HE was. GOD gave Jesus the power to cast out demons,
To heal and cure the sick, feed the people, and to choose 12 men. GOD also blessed these 12 men [The Apostles] with the same abilities as Jesus had, so they could continue
on in the work of gathering GOD’S people.

Therefore, I should accept that Jesus is God because the CC says.
Forgive me for saying this, but the above statement is very dumb. GOD says
Do not follow mortal man. Paul even writes about it in Romans 7 where he describes his struggles for our benefit.
It seems like you have a problem with the doctrine of the Trinity. If that doctrine is not true, many many problems arise. My understanding of this Mystery is limited, but note the Mystery is not contradictory…
You “assume” a lot Michael, how sad. Instead of asking, you assume I think or believe a certain way. I don’t have a problem with the Trinity. I don’t believe in it the same way as you do. It’s not a patriarchal or matriarchal hierarchy, it’s both. GOD is both mother and father to us all, therefore teaching us balance. This comes from experience it’s not scriptural. One would have to know GOD to know this.
At least two persons are needed for true love, the willing of the good of the other
Only for humans Michael, does it work this way. GOD has loved, and loves us no matter what. There are plenty of examples of HIS great love in the OT. GOD speaks with a lot of symbols, as Jesus spoke in parables, so you may want to pray ask for HIS understanding of the scriptures, and not rely on your religions or your own understanding.

for instance when Jesus says everyone that sees Him, sees the Father. And also when Jesus specifically claimed He was God when He said “I AM” in the garden of Gethsemene. Not to mention that for a very long time (excuse the generality because of my lack of knowledge of specifics)
Aren’t there things in you that people may say they see your father or mother in you. Or something you may have done? It’s the same thing with GOD and HIS Anointed Son. Jesus taught the same things GOD taught in the OT, he just taught them in a different way, because civilization changed, there were houses, no longer tents. Temples were built, no more altars outside. Those kinds of things

 

[janw]

This thread should get the award for the strangest thread ever. One believes he should attack those that disagree with him, another calls her/himself christian but does not believe Jesus is God and another believes Jesus was talking about himself when he said to Peter, you are rock and on this rock I will build my church.

God help alot of very confused people, seriously pray for these folks.

 

[Shai22]

God help alot of very confused people, seriously pray for these folks

And I’m sure they will also pray for you and your confusion!

 

[Shike]

Shai22,
Could you please use quotes, it will be a lot easier for everyone. Before the quote you type quote inbetween ] and after it you type /quote inbetween ]. Or highlight the text in the editor you want to quote and hit the button above the text window, one of the small little buttons up there; it looks like a comic book talk bubble.

Apostles Creed
(I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord}

This is stating that Christ is the SON of GOD, not GOD
Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah,
the Son of the Living GOD.“
John 3:16-17 For GOD loved this world so much that HE gave his only begotten
Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
Mark 1:11 “You are my own dear Son. I am pleased with you.

Yes, but he is son of God the Father; check the creed again. It does not deny the traditional trinitarian understanding.

Therefore, I should accept that Jesus is God because the CC says.

Forgive me for saying this, but the above statement is very dumb. GOD says
Do not follow mortal man. Paul even writes about it in Romans 7 where he describes his struggles for our benefit.

If that was the case that it was just mortal men then I would agree, but it’s not. Why would I trust a creed that the Church handed to me? The Church is the body of Christ with Christ as the head. If Christ is the head, it would be foolish not to follow.

You “assume” a lot Michael, how sad. Instead of asking, you assume I think or believe a certain way. I don’t have a problem with the Trinity. I don’t believe in it the same way as you do. It’s not a patriarchal or matriarchal hierarchy, it’s both. GOD is both mother and father to us all, therefore teaching us balance. This comes from experience it’s not scriptural. One would have to know GOD to know this.

I guess I did not ask, you are correct; but I was losing confidence that you would answer considering it took forever for you to talk about not believing Jesus is God.
I described the traditional understanding of the Trinity. If you do not believe in it similar to that, then you have a problem with the traditional understanding of the Trinity. I’m not disputing God can be mother and father to us all. The issue is how God relates within the Trinity; forget about the human element for a sec.

At least two persons are needed for true love, the willing of the good of the other

Only for humans Michael, does it work this way. GOD has loved, and loves us no matter what. There are plenty of examples of HIS great love in the OT. GOD speaks with a lot of symbols, as Jesus spoke in parables, so you may want to pray ask for HIS understanding of the scriptures, and not rely on your religions or your own understanding.

Forget about the human element for a sec. Try to picture things before humans came onto the scene. God is eternal right? How exactly does God love if He is not more than 1 person?

for instance when Jesus says everyone that sees Him, sees the Father. And also when Jesus specifically claimed He was God when He said “I AM” in the garden of Gethsemene. Not to mention that for a very long time (excuse the generality because of my lack of knowledge of specifics)

Aren’t there things in you that people may say they see your father or mother in you. Or something you may have done? It’s the same thing with GOD and HIS Anointed Son. Jesus taught the same things GOD taught in the OT, he just taught them in a different way, because civilization changed, there were houses, no longer tents. Temples were built, no more altars outside. Those kinds of things

That explanation might be possible for the ‘everyone that sees Him sees the Father’ part (though I think I’ve heard that interpretation thouroughly refuted before. Does anyone remember how?). But it definitely fails with regards to Jesus saying “I AM”. Jews upon reading this would know exactly what was meant.

peace,
Michael

 

[Shai22]

Try to picture things before humans came onto the scene. God is eternal right? How exactly does God love if He is not more than 1 person?

My response below

[The Same way a Father or Mother shows love to their children. What you are forgetting, is who GOD really is. Exodus 34:6-7 This is where GOD has introduced HIMSELF to Moses as HE has never done before.
6 I, the LORD, am a GOD who is full of compassion and pity, who is not easily angered and who shows great love and faithfulness .
7. I keep my promises for thousands of generations and forgive evil and sin; but I will not fail to punish children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generation for the sins of their parents. ]

Yes, but he is son of God the Father; check the creed again. It does not deny the traditional trinitarian understanding.

my response below
[That the problem it’s a tradition not a command or law of GOD’S]

Yes, but he is son of God the Father’s.

My response below

[You just made the point one more time, that Jesus is not GOD, he is the Son of GOD.]

You are correct that I have problems about traditions of the Christians, because some of their traditions are not from nor supported by GOD, nor HIS Son Jesus Christ.

But it definitely fails with regards to Jesus saying “I AM”. Jews upon reading this would know exactly what was meant.

My response below

[This scripture is when GOD wanted Moses to go to the Israelites, and Moses didn’t want to.
Exodus 3:13-14
13 But Moses replied, “When I go to the Israelites and say to them The GOD of your ancestors sent me to you, they will ask me, “What is his name? So what can I tell them.
14 GOD said, “I am who I am. You must tell them: The one who is called I AM has sent me to you.

This is the only place in the scriptures where GOD says HE is I AM. The apostles in the NT repeats this in speaking about GOD].

 

[happilycatholic]

God help alot of very confused people, seriously pray for these folks

And I’m sure they will also pray for you and your confusion!

See, what is this? The need to have the last word or something?

I’m sorry I know I’m speaking out of turn here. Sorry, this is rediculous. This totally flies in the face of adult intellectual conversation.

 

[happilycatholic]

I think healthy debate is great. However, I’ve noticed on this forum non-catholics challenge catholics to defend their faith and then the non-catholics in turn act as if it is because they’ve been doctrinally excluded from Christianity by catholics.

---

**That is a rediculous point-of-view. Catholics exclude no one who is baptized in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit in our family of Christian brothers and sisters. In fact, we pray for you at most masses. We believe that we are the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. That is what we believe. You as non-catholics have the perrogotive to believe differently and defend that position. But why act like someone has denied you access to a club you don’t want to join in the first place? **

---

It’s pretty much that simple. And yes, folks (even Christians) are going to loose their ability to be charitable when their faith in God and the way they practice it are challenged and sometimes insulted. I believe Christ lost his
**charitable-ness at times. **

---

**Someone said this is a strange discussion a few posts back. Not really, it’s actually par for the course. **

 

[onenow1]

The first recorded use of the word Catholic is in
St. Ignatius of Antioch’s letter to the Smyrneans, paragraph 8,
of 107 A.D., “Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as
where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

It is very likely the word Catholic was used before this; And it is very likely St. Ignatious knew St.John the Apostle

Peace, onenow1 .

 

[Shai22]

It’s pretty much that simple. And yes, folks (even Christians) are going to loose their ability to be charitable when their faith in God and the way they practice it are challenged and sometimes insulted. I believe Christ lost his charitable-ness at times.

[Christ never did such a thing, he got angry because people were disrespecting GOD MOST HIGH, and his Anger is justified as being justice] GOD teaches that anger with justice is right, but anger with emotion is wrong]

[IF the catholics are feeling they are being challenged, they should have thought about that when they opened this forum to all people.]

TRUTH doesn’t have to be “defended”. Why would anyone have to defend their “religion”. Why is it that people view this blog as negative, instead of productive? Could it be, because there are people who simply disagree with catholic tradition?

I follow GOD, not organized Religion.